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New Do You Understand?
This is a Holy Muslim War. They will not stop until every one of them (or us) is dead.

The Clerics want us to attack Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, or Iraq. Then they can they can justify this Holy War to Saudia Arabia, UAE, Turkey, Egypt, Kuwait, and all of them to join in a fight against the West. We/They won't finish this until every Arab/American is dead. If there is one left standing, they will have a "calling" from Allah to attack the U.S. If there is one American left standing, we'll be duty bound to destroy Islam.

So you're left with two options here. We either stay out of the fight, but heavily arm and secure ourselves kind of like Israel. We give up our overhead luggage. We turn in purses and wallets for safekeeping when we get on the plane. We are run through metal detectors multiple times and possibly searched. We are questioned every time we travel. Our lives are investigated for every plane trip to make sure we aren't terrorists. We refuse to be drawn into a Holy War, but we have to severely limit our freedoms at home as a price for security. We have to move back into smaller "fuedal" communities, because we can then know who the "outsiders" are. We will have no sense of trust to strangers. We are questioned everywhere we turn, for every purchase and rental.

Or we kill every living Arab in the world.

That's my frustration tonight. I feel like the way we "used" to live is gone. I feel like we now have to live in suspicion of all terrorist groups. I feel I need to go certify myself for a concealed handgun permit (I do live in Texas, after all).

I think "Dubya" is pushing us toward killing every living Arab in the world. You see, once we attack Afghanistan, they and most of the Arab world will declare war on us. We'll be deporting large numbers of Arabs and confiscating their assets. The ones we miss here will be renting trucks and buying fertilizer. Your children in the suburbs won't be safe anymore. Every time any person buys something, we'll have to be doing a $100 background check.

I'm depressed.

Glen Austin
New I don't see it that way.
This is a war of good vs evil, if we must call it a war.

I'm not saying we are good and others are evil. We are all good and evil.
Which side do you prefer to show the world?

If the good people of the world band together to show the evil people that we outnumber them and will stand against them (and try to help them) then we can turn the tide against war and find a way to support peace.

I guess the cup is either half empty or half full.

It's up to "you" to tip the balance.

The world leaders seem to want an end to the violence/terrorism.
(or are you watching different news channels than I? :)
Expand Edited by brettj Sept. 15, 2001, 12:28:57 AM EDT
New That's Why I Don't Like Calling It A War
That's why I don't like the comparisons to Pearl Harbor. A nation (Japan) attacked us. There were weeks and months of diplomatic gestures prior to the attack. Japan was "supposed" to notify us prior to the attack. We had a clear enemy, we fought them, and ultimately created a gigantic weapon of mass destruction (the atomic bomb) to destroy two cities before they finally signed a peace treaty. After the war, we poured billions of dollars into Japan to rebuild their industries, buildings, and economy to where they rival the United States in the modern world.

Another nation did not attack us. If we demonstrate to the world by good police work that Islam did not attack us, or Afghanistan, or Syria, etc., but a few really twisted and sick criminal individuals, then we can still care for Islamic people here. We isolate the "bad" to a few people who become the focus of our attention. We give up a few freedoms flying and travelling and renting and buying. We look twice at the person next to us.

This is a gigantic police investigation, looking for a few hundred (or a few thousand) really criminal people and the cowardly people who would help them. A few Ranger/Seal/Marine strikes with selected camps in the Middle East should kill the worst of them.

Declare a war on money used to sponser terrorism. One smart thing I heard today was that Osama bin Laden is still receiving a lot of money from his parents ( a very wealthy Saudi Oil sheik ), even though the father has publicly denounced the actions of his son and vowed to never send him money again. One of bin Laden's brothers has a secret security clearance in our own government. If we discover that his father lied about never sending him money again, then we need to freeze his assets and force him to pay out the life insurance/ADD of all the people in the WTC and Pentagon. We should force him to rebuild the twin towers with his own money. Then we should tell him that his son will be tried and killed. This kind of hypocrisy cannot go unpunished! I'm mad about this! This guy is really rich and wants to play both sides (terrorists and legit governments). That is what we need to really get angry about. As far as I'm concerned, this sheik can just drown in his own oil.

The leaders of Islam here in Dallas are condemning the action, saying that the Koran does not advocate the ultimate destruction of non-Islamic faiths. Jews and Christians go to heaven, too. I laud their stance and fear for their safety. I still would recommend most Muslims in this country go home, not because I don't like them, but because I really do fear for their safety. I fear that continued terrorist actions will cause many people in our nation to decide to take justice into their own hands.

You see, our (American) demands for justice and revenge is just more bloodthirst brought about by our own selfishness, and our feelings that "dang it" we're the greatest military power in the world and NOONE does this to us.
But if we act on this rage, we will start WW III or Armageddon.

Glen Austin

New Wrong reason
You see, our (American) demands for justice and revenge is just more bloodthirst brought about by our own selfishness, and our feelings that "dang it" we're the greatest military power in the world and NOONE does this to us.

When you find a snake in your yeard, you destroy the snake and the nest, not out of revenge or demands for justice, but simply to prevent any damage, or any more damage

When a dog attacks someone, you kill the dog, not out of revenge against the dog or that the dog 'deserves' it, but simply because the dog has shown itself not to be safe to be kept around humans or safe to be let loose

If bin Laden is behind this, then he and his organization, as deeply as possible down the chain of command, should be destroyed. Not for vengence, not for justice, not for bloodshed, but simply for self-defense. He has shown that it is too dangerous for the rest of the civilized world for him to be allowed to live; he has shown that negotiation, appeasement, and threats, are not sufficient motivations. He has shown that he is a rabid dog and no course of action is left but that he be put down
Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
New It could very well be war.
Let's say for the sake of argument that we prove to our satisfaction that bin Laden directed it. Yes, we need to root out him and his organization as deeply and as thoroughly as humanly possible. However, we have the prospect of Afghanistan, Syria, Sudan, whoevre actively sheltering him and aiding him in his terrorism - do we let them alone? No. We deal with the government(s) and group(s) that have sheltered him in a similar manner - and that is war.
That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing [as freedom], on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion; yet arms ... should be the last resource. - George Washington
New No denying it
I'm not denying that it shold be war, I think it should. Nations that give save haven to those that perform such acts shold be held culpable

My only point was that the desire to snuff bin Laden is not just desires for vengeance or bloodlust
Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
New Are You Prepared to Die?
How about those great kids of yours?

The two things I think I'll remember forever out of watching the memorial service on TV at 12 EST, were the children and the old people.

The boys (and girls) choir that sang had kids not much older than my 6 year old. I'm having to tell him now that our world is a very dangerous place to live. He asks if terrorism (the bombs, the death) could happen in our town. Honestly, I want to lie and tell him no, and I try to rationalize it, but the sad truth is YES. If we engage in this war millions of people will die and American will no longer be the home of the free, only the brave. His innocence and the innocence of all those poor kids have been ripped from them. He now has to realize at a very young age that the world is an ugly dangerous place. These were lessons my parents didn't have to teach me until I was in my teens. And I'm very angry about that.

The other sight I'll remember forever was the looks on the faces of people over 70. They lived in the last great World War and sincerely hoped we would never have to face something of this magnitude in our lifetime. They are shocked that we would be attacked on our own soil. And yet, I feel that this is just the beginning. We have failed to put good airport/airline security in place (like Israel) and it will simply be a matter of weeks before we have another kamikaze commercial flight. If the terrorists can't hijack airline flights, then they'll try air freight, or even private planes loaded with explosives. Our freedoms are completely and totally under attack here, but the only response we can have is to voluntarily live with more resticted freedoms until terrorists decide it is futile to attack us. That is why WE are the target, and Israel is NOT. They have done their homework.

Be prepared to have kids die as schools, churches, big buildings, and even our water and transportation infrastructure is attacked.

My answer. Yes, I'm prepared to die. If I have to, I'll fly to Afghanistan, learn how to live as a Marine, and kill Arabs in large numbers if I have to, just to spare the lives of my 3 precious children. But, I don't want to sit here like an idiot and watch mommys and daddys and kids die by the thousands here in America. We haven't lived in that kind of uncertainty in over 100 years. (If you don't count Pearl Harbor and WW II.)

But remember also, the Afghanis love their children, too.

Glen Austin
New It's not war
It's a chess match.

bin Laden has attacked. Not with pawns. Knights. Jumped in over our heads, and knocked things around a bit. He's trying to draw us out. Get us inflamed. Perform an overly bold move.

The problem is that there are other pieces on the board. If we don't respond, he'll keep coming after us -- unfortunately in this game, there are more than 16 pieces. But he doesn't have unlimited resources.

What is inevitable is that we're going to have to make calculated strategic moves, and we're going to have to sacrifice some of our own pieces, no matter what. bin Laden's structured the board such that this is inevitable.

We have far more power, but his structure is arrayed far more deviously. It's going to be a tricky time of it, I think.
The problem is, I don't think W's spent much time playing chess.

On the other hand, I don't know what bin Laden's poker hand is like.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]

What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
New Continuing analogy
bin Laden is playing off the Afghanistan chessboard.

It's hard to play chess if you don't have a board. I can play chess in my head (blindfold chess?) but bin Laden or Hussein or whoever is responsible will find it hard to play terrorist chess without a country to support them.

bin Laden: 1.P-K4 (e4)

USA: 1. ... P-QB4 (c5)

(an oblique, but aggressive, approach.)
That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing [as freedom], on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion; yet arms ... should be the last resource. - George Washington
New Hey guys: I think you've Got It\ufffd
And.. this further serves to point out the inanity - practised exclusively in the US? - of approaching Every problem from crime to education to poverty (!!) via this loathsome 'War On ___' utter BS model.

Maybe.. we can alter That little habit, too - as we are assuredly going to be revisiting very many other simplistic views we have: about 'us' and about the rest of the world.

For dead certain: we are going to be educated across a variety of topics, as this all unfolds (unless of course - we regress to a jingoistic Hermann Kahn spasm war as would destroy us all.)

I think.. we're now too smart for that, but - those temptations are always around.. especially when you possess the means to destroy most 'higher' lifeforms.


Ashton
New More than you know.
However, it doesn't pay to over-react.

It is not a holy war. Those who conducted this attack violated their beliefs. They are NOT the norm.

Remember...a few years ago we had an American attack a federal building. You did not think it necessary to kill all Americans at that time.

Most Arabs do not agree with terrorism. By most I mean 99.999%,,,its that .0001 that we're dealing with...and they've got money and they hate us. While we may find that difficult to believe...we have earned that disdain. Even those who hate our country, however, do not and would never condone the actions taken against us on Tuesday.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Good answer. Hatred leads to evil.
Love leads to peace.

Someone once said, "All you need is love'.
New Bad answer.
Passive hope that the other guy will play nice leads to the peace of the grave.

I don't say go in with a red hot hatred of (fill in the blank), but loving these people is nuts.
That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing [as freedom], on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion; yet arms ... should be the last resource. - George Washington
New Love the person, not their evil deeds. - NT
New Someone else said, "Be wise as serpents, harmless as doves"
The same person suggested turning the other cheek. He also said, "love your enemies, bless those that curse you, do good to those that hate you and pray for those that spitefully use you and persecute you".

Maybe we don't always agree with or understand these words but they are key words in the world's most published book.

And in my humble opinion, it's a good book.
New We have to agree to disagree
There is no record in history of a nation that ever gained anything valuable by being unable to defend itself. - H.L. Mencken

If you want peace, prepare for war. (variously attributed)

Turn the other cheek, and this will happen again, and again, and again. We turned the other cheek with the USS Cole. We turned a cheek at the bombings of our embassies. We have no further cheeks to turn.
That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing [as freedom], on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion; yet arms ... should be the last resource. - George Washington
New Turning a cheek and defending oneself are 2 different things
... that's where being wise as a serpent helps out.

The best way to combat violence is not always with a return of violence, if you know what I mean.
New Sigh
You've been preaching (well, maybe not preaching, but pushing, perhaps) peace and love and nonviolence, but the world is not a peaceful, nonviolent place. When you have people intent on violence upon you, what do you propose to do? Love them to death?

What should Kuwait have done when Iraq rolled over them? France when Germany clobbered them? The Phillipines when the Japanese "invited" them into Japanese empire?

Wise as a serpent is a platitude. Yes, avoid conflict where possible. But when someone kills upwards of 4000 people and causes billions of dollars of damage, I don't think conflict is avoidable. Also see my tagline.
That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing [as freedom], on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion; yet arms ... should be the last resource. - George Washington
New Do you want justice or Vengence?
Is the distinction important to you?

You seem to think I am against any type of military action. You are incorrect. What I am for is international cooperation to root out these and other evil people in the world. Some people want to bomb the heck out of these invisible terrorists and get things back to normal. It AINT gonna happen that way! This is a war against terrorism much like the U.S. is already in a war on crime or drugs.

What I propose is that we apply all kinds of strategies against evil, not just violence and bombs. Some believe that violence begets violence. Some believe that viscious cycle must be broken before we have to endure nuclear winter.
New Re: Do you want justice or Vengence?
Personally, neither.
I want the persons responsible stopped. Permanently.
I want the practice discouraged. Massively.
I want the practice discouraged so much that when others (and there will be others) step up and declare jihad, their neighbors slap them down because it is fucking dangerous to be next to such an idiot.
I want to head toward stability not chaos.
Mary Poppins is not going to win this one. Nice guys will lose. I don\ufffdt propose we be nice. I am totally uninterested in going to a better world. I wish to make this a better world. A world without terrorists is a good start.

my .02
Hugh
Expand Edited by hnick Sept. 15, 2001, 11:25:36 AM EDT
New You are right on target.
This attack is a wake-up call for the international community to take appropriate measures to ensure security for all peace-loving people.

That should be the number 1 goal, not retribution.
New Both.
Justice, such that we do not destroy innocent lives.

Vengence, such that future terroristic organizations may think, "bomb the USA? <involuntarily pissing of pants>" Yes.

Unfortunately, we may have to kill innocent civilians as we right this wrong. That is unfortunate, but as Steve Stirling said, don't stand next to a person who slings shit at a person armed with a gun. He's going to take out the slinger, but you unfortunately may well be collateral damage.

We need to take out the people who did this slinging of the shit at the USA, and the WTC is a heap of shit slung at us, but I am not in the least concerned about possible damage about those who are standing close to the slinger. Give them 24 hours to give us the people responsible, then (if nonconpliance) utterly destroy them.

I note that as yet there has been no official determination as to who organized it. If it was bin Laden, Afghanistan will be hard. If it was Hussein, well, it was easy last time, it'll be harder this time, but if it can be shown either or both funded or participated, they should be wiped off the face of the earth. Make Iraq and Afghaniistan a sheet of radioactive glass if necessary.

Sure, inhumane. Sorry. Bashing planes into the former world trade center was, I would think, rather inhumane. If you are a government who sponsored a terrorist organization that did this, you'd damn well better cough up your information now.
That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing [as freedom], on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion; yet arms ... should be the last resource. - George Washington
New Another thought: What do you think the terrorists expect??
They expected the U.S. to retaliate and bomb Afganistan at random (sort of).

That would unite the Muslems who already hate America.

Am I wrong?

Should we walk into their trap or should we casue their plan to backfire?

What do you think?
New Terrorists have seen "The Grinch who Stole Christmas"
... come true in real life.

Wooville appears to be a global village.
New Doesn't say turn the cheek more than once...
New Only have the right to turn your own cheek
He was addressing individuals, not nations.

I cannot forgive one who offends you. If I have taken on the task of defending someone, and a third person attacks me, I can turn the other cheek, but if the third person attacks someone who I have promised to defend, and threatens to do so again, turning the other cheek is an offense against someone who trusted me.

By refraining from massive and indiscriminate retaliation, we show ourselves as sane.

I have no desire for retailiation. Not even a hope for justice. There will be no justice, because those who did this have nothing to offer, nothing to lose, that comes close to compensation.

What I want is for them to be stopped. Or reduced in effectiveness.

If providing them a lifetime supply of hash and hookers would stop them and not encourage others, I would not object to that solution. Unfortunately, I don't see any viable solutions that do not involve some level of military force.
New Yes, so I guess we'd better get on with it.
They want this escalated until either every Arab is dead or every American / European / Canadian / Mexican or what have you is dead. I say, then, lets have at it. It should not be a unsurmountable task to kill every Arab in fairly short order.

So when they are gone, the world will have lost what? It will have lost a population that had the potential to be worthwhile human beings, but instead chose to be animals.

Besides, the bleading hearts of 2060 will need something to sob over.

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New The new Kristalnacht?
Will we become that which we despised? Will we herd all of arabic descent into camps, then gas chambers? Or will you just have them all forcibly sterilized, and let nature take it's course?
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
New Re: The new Kristalnacht?
I doubt it. The US as a whole doesn't really have a latent hatred towards any racial or religious group to the same extent we've seen in other countries in recent history (e.g. Japan vs. China, Europe vs. Jews, Serbs vs. Albanians, Israelis vs. Arabs, etc.).

Sure, we virtually wiped out American Indians, enslaved Africans, and locked up Japanese-Americans, but our collective attitude has changed ever since the Civil Rights Movement. We probably will trample on Civil Rights of our citizens and deport aliens without cause but I am confident that cooler head will prevail and prevent us from becoming a monster.
Ray
New I'm only as serious as they are.
If they really can rally the Islamic world to try to kill us, every man woman and child, then I think we would rise to the occasion quite well enough. It wouldn't be genocide though, we'd set aside a reservation for the remaining few.

Because we use our power with restraint, much of the world interprets us as weak, because such restraint in the use of power is a totally alien concept to them, and that causes them to make mistakes.

Of course we'll be blamed for their mistakes - if we hadn't exercised restraint they wouldn't have misjudged us, so it's all our fault, as usual.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Deep down.. I hope you are right
re restraint.

But having the village Idiot as US Selected Resident, and one tryin to fill Daddy's big shoes (And Prescott Bush's boots) - all given carte blanche, along with the likes of John Ashcroft et al:

There's much *need* of hopefulness as the Dogs of War are given fresh meat, and the call-ups for Reserves go out...
Let the slogans begin.

(Remember - as I hope Dick's Boys might be reminded in time - the Muslims despise each others' sects about as much as the Baptists, Catholics and Unitarians each have Their Personalized Gods, only One of which is the Right One.)

:[


A.

Kill a Commie for the er AntiChrist?
New No.
This is a Holy Muslim War. They will not stop until every one of them (or us) is dead.

What do you mean "us", paleface? [old joke, off topic to explain]

Christians? Americans?

Hell, they just want Israel to disappear, preferably at their hand, and they're happy.

*THAT* is why they attack. Partially because its so damn dangerous to attack Israel - they tend to respond "disproportionately".

And we don't.

If there is one left standing, they will have a "calling" from Allah to attack the U.S. If there is one American left standing, we'll be duty bound to destroy Islam.

That's not the case. For some of them, a very few, yes. And they manipulate some others. We've seen it before, and withstood it without having to "kill them all".

Or we kill every living Arab in the world.

Which doesn't change the problem you were describing.

McVeigh wasn't an arab. But he was as deadly. There are Christian sects as dangerous as the extreme Arab sects. Want to let *me* pick out who to shoot? Please?

You see, once we attack Afghanistan, they and most of the Arab world will declare war on us.

I don't know that at all.

Something from my viewpoint, and my mismash of knowledge of Islam and Arabs (which requires distinction, the Afganistanis aren't arabs (right?)) - the issue with the Arabs is that "country" is mostly irrelevant - the lines were drawn by Europeans. (which is why As I understand it, is why Iraq has a debatably legit claim to Kuwait).... So the ties are slightly different.

You're talking about the Islamic world... and most of them hate each other, just slightly less than they hate us. Well, no, that's wrong too. Most of them don't give a rat's ass, they are too busy worrying about day-to-day.


Addison

New Maslov's Hierarchy of Needs.
Is that what you are getting at?
>>>>
You're talking about the Islamic world... and most of them hate each other, just slightly less than they hate us. Well, no, that's wrong too. Most of them don't give a rat's ass, they are too busy worrying about day-to-day.
<<<<

We start at the beginning and move up the ladder (hopefully) :

Self-Actualization (sharing success with others)
Respect and approval from others
Love and affection
Shelter & Security
Food & Water (day to day survival)

P.S. This is from memory so it may be a tad off in the descriptions.

Question: What is the best way to help people at the bottom get to the top?
Who should be the one's to help them: Those at the top or those in the middle?
New Each should help all the levels below . .
. . but this pyramid is pointy at the top and very broad at the bottom, so there are limits to what can be done.

Also keep in mind many will violently resist being helped. This can be quite frustrating for those above.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New I've never heard that answer before.
I'm impressed and perhaps a better person now that I've learned this new truth.

Thanks.

P.S. Sometimes the reason people resent being helped is because the people "above" tend to be a bit arrogant. I know this tendancy applies to me on occasion. Sorry for those occasions.

Brett
New Curious
Why do you say W is pushing us to going on an Arab killing spree? He hasn't said much to rally the US into an all out war. Many in the liberal press are accusing W of not showing backbone, tempering his retoric, so that he doesn't have to go to war.

We may be on the road towards the kind of war we all fear. But I don't see W pushing us headlong into it with glee. Now if you are saying W is a hawk compared to Clinton, I'll agree. I don't think W will limit himself to a couple of cruise missiles fired from the Persian Gulf.
Ray
     2 more possilbe attempts - (bepatient) - (38)
         2 had tickets dated from 9/11/01 - (brettj) - (1)
             ... from a plane that was grounded before take-off on 9/11 - (brettj)
         Do You Understand? - (gdaustin) - (35)
             I don't see it that way. - (brettj) - (8)
                 That's Why I Don't Like Calling It A War - (gdaustin) - (7)
                     Wrong reason - (Fearless Freep) - (3)
                         It could very well be war. - (wharris2) - (2)
                             No denying it - (Fearless Freep) - (1)
                                 Are You Prepared to Die? - (gdaustin)
                     It's not war - (kmself) - (2)
                         Continuing analogy - (wharris2) - (1)
                             Hey guys: I think you've Got It\ufffd - (Ashton)
             More than you know. - (bepatient) - (15)
                 Good answer. Hatred leads to evil. - (brettj) - (14)
                     Bad answer. - (wharris2) - (13)
                         Love the person, not their evil deeds. - NT -NT - (brettj)
                         Someone else said, "Be wise as serpents, harmless as doves" - (brettj) - (11)
                             We have to agree to disagree - (wharris2) - (9)
                                 Turning a cheek and defending oneself are 2 different things - (brettj) - (8)
                                     Sigh - (wharris2) - (6)
                                         Do you want justice or Vengence? - (brettj) - (3)
                                             Re: Do you want justice or Vengence? - (hnick) - (1)
                                                 You are right on target. - (brettj)
                                             Both. - (wharris2)
                                         Another thought: What do you think the terrorists expect?? - (brettj) - (1)
                                             Terrorists have seen "The Grinch who Stole Christmas" - (brettj)
                                     Doesn't say turn the cheek more than once... -NT - (hnick)
                             Only have the right to turn your own cheek - (mhuber)
             Yes, so I guess we'd better get on with it. - (Andrew Grygus) - (4)
                 The new Kristalnacht? - (inthane-chan) - (3)
                     Re: The new Kristalnacht? - (rsf)
                     I'm only as serious as they are. - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                         Deep down.. I hope you are right - (Ashton)
             No. - (addison) - (3)
                 Maslov's Hierarchy of Needs. - (brettj) - (2)
                     Each should help all the levels below . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                         I've never heard that answer before. - (brettj)
             Curious - (rsf)

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