Some different things which could be done.

Post #8,553 by Another Scott 9/12/01 10:40:56 AM Reply	Some different things which could be done. And some variations on what's been suggested. These could be done with very little expense and it would increase security on a plane. 1. Lock the cockpit door and make it bulletproof, etc., with a window. The door isn't to be opened after the plane leaves the gate - have a lock interlocked with the flight controls so that it can't be opened under operation. 2. Replace some or all flight attendants with bouncers. Seriously. People expect to see big burly guys at night clubs and the like for security. Such a presence on a plane would help reduce the problems due to knife-weilding people, loud agitated drunks, etc. I don't like the idea of arming lots of crew members; the presence of strong people with training in handling lightly armed people is a better approach, IMO. I don't like the idea of eliminating carry-ons. What about purses? Sorry. It won't work, IMO. X-ray, etc., is sufficient if the operators of the equipment are properly trained and if passengers understand the rules. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #8,560 by jbrabeck 9/12/01 10:53:23 AM Reply	Reaction Locked cockpit door... How long would the pilot hold out while the hijacker(s) executed the passengers, one by one, starting with children...? Burly bouncers ... Same as above, plus would they be willing to serve passengers? Or are they just "overhead". No luggage ... Would work. NO "containers" should be allowed in the cabin. Check everything. What is NEEDED from the purse during flight? Stock femine articles in the restrooms to eliminate the need to bring their own. ID and money could be carried in a pocket. [link\|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net\|Joe]
Post #8,564 by admin 9/12/01 11:03:45 AM Reply	Carry-ons Ever travelled with a baby? You cannot go without some sort of carryon if you have a baby. Regards, -scott anderson
Post #8,578 by jbrabeck 9/12/01 11:33:55 AM Reply	Guess you're right Babies can't walk, so they'd have to be carry-on ;-) [link\|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net\|Joe]
Post #8,588 by admin 9/12/01 11:57:38 AM Reply	Kidding aside... Diapers, wipes, food, toys, extra change of clothing. Remember the Northwest planes that sat on the runway for 8 hours? Regards, -scott anderson
Post #8,592 by drewk 9/12/01 12:02:02 PM Reply	That's the point: put the kiddens aside Sorry, I had to.
Post #8,579 by addison 9/12/01 11:38:28 AM Reply	Make 'em check 'em. I've travelled next to a baby. Addison
Post #8,583 by jbrabeck 9/12/01 11:48:35 AM Reply	Sounds like a great idea But you gotta add the smiley!! :-) [link\|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net\|Joe]
Post #8,582 by Steven A S 9/12/01 11:46:16 AM Reply	Instead of locked cockpit door a hardened wall with no access from the cockpit to the passenger cabin would be the only way of effectively securing the controls. Sure the Terrorrists would be able to threaten passengers; may even be able to talk the pilots into diverting their course through such threats; but no matter how many passengers they threaten, they couldn't make the pilots risk everybody's life by crashing into Disneyland or some such by threatening passengers though. Of course the problems with that are that they would need food storage and bathrooms attached to the cockpit, which isn't unreasonable; but the pilots wouldn't be able to get up and move around much on long flights (but that may be restricted anyway - and military pilots (non-cargo) fly under those conditions anyway). They would just need their own entry into the cockpit for ground loading. ~~~)-Steven----
Post #8,699 by addison 9/12/01 5:26:03 PM Reply	Would be simpler... 1. Lock the cockpit door and make it bulletproof, etc., with a window. The door isn't to be opened after the plane leaves the gate - have a lock interlocked with the flight controls so that it can't be opened under operation. To lock the seatbelts and only unlock them one or a few at a time, if needed during the flight. Addison
Post #8,702 by Another Scott 9/12/01 5:38:55 PM Reply	Not as effective, IMO. The critical area is the cockpit. If "one or a few" passengers can be unlocked, then there's a chance they can be up and about doing something nefarious. But if they can't get in the cockpit, they can't control the plane. What about unlocked flight attendants with evil intent? You've still got to secure the flight deck.... I still like the lock-the-cockpit-door-and-keep-it-locked solution (as one of many). It should be relatively easy to retrofit, and relatively inexpensive. New plane designs could include different flight crew entrances, etc. Cheers, Scott.
Post #8,705 by drewk 9/12/01 5:51:38 PM Reply	What if cockpit door lock was controlled from ground? For this to work, we would have to depend on everyone on the ground to have the fortitude to tell the pilots, "Sorry about the passnegers they're killing, but we can't open the door." And for the pilots not to lie to ground control in the face of threats. But it seems like a relatively simple solution that would raise the bar quite a bit. Wouldn't require recertification of the airframe. Could probably be tested and approved pretty quick. Maybe include a "panic button" that unlocks the door but engages the autopilot in a way that can't be disabled except from the ground. This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Post #8,710 by Another Scott 9/12/01 6:07:52 PM Reply	More complexity; pilot is master of the plane. Hi Drew, I don't see the benefit of your proposal over a very sturdy door which might be tied into the controls (via simple switches, etc.) to prevent it from being opened once the plane leaves the gate (even if the pilot wants to). (This does open the door, so to speak, for attacks when the plane is being loaded with passengers, or when the flight crew changes, etc., and the flight deck door is open. But there may be operational ways to mitigate these issues.) And there's the tradition that the pilot is the master of the plane. It's his/her responsibility for it to be operated safely. I don't think that aspect of the pilot's job should be handed to people on the ground. Cheers, Scott.
Post #8,724 by addison 9/12/01 6:48:04 PM Reply	More, really. But if they can't get in the cockpit, they can't control the plane. But they can still destroy it. And I don't know that they can't control it - particularly with things like the Airbuses flying by wire - I don't know how they've protected it from the possibility of being "taken over". What about unlocked flight attendants with evil intent? You've still got to secure the flight deck.... If you've got inside people, that doesn't mean the door can't be rigged. But now you've got the problems of setting up seperate systems in the front, and like I've pointed out, lots of airplanes just aren't viable for that (747 being one). Maybe you could try and make them meet that requirement - but that's one more thing to go wrong. What happens when the door is breached? Because surely there's still a way to do that... there always is. It should be relatively easy to retrofit, and relatively inexpensive. Not really. For it to be heavy enough to be effective, its going to weigh a lot. Plus, figuring where to put it (right now most entrances are right behind the flight deck - that door would bar escapes, after its secured.. And that's still figuring that you handle all the other aspects. Plus after you do that, you'll have to make sure it doesn't change anything. Remember, airplanes fly by throwing money out the window. :) I'd say a more minor door, with possibly a/the sky marshal behind it, where you're talking would work better. But remember, this is a very very rare event. And airplanes are damn fragile anyway - with a knife or a gun, you can take out the whole plane now. (hydraulic lines, flight control wires are usually accessable by panels in the cabin) Locking people into their seats isn't a perfect solution, either. But its not a horrible one, either, would be faster, easier, and would also cut down on other accidents. (But raise the deep vein thrombosis) To put changes into the Flight Data Recorders has taken almost 20 years... as a measure of something "minor" that has to change. Addison
Post #8,742 by wharris2 9/12/01 9:19:44 PM Reply	More simple Make the door to the cockpit locked 1" steel, and tell the cockpit crew that if they open it for terrorists, no matter how many passengers they slash, they will be tried along with the terrorists. Allow the crew to open it on their needs. Keep cockpit door locked at all times. The cockpit doors, as I've seen, are pitiful. An anemic six-year old could kick them in. That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing [as freedom], on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion; yet arms ... should be the last resource. - George Washington

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