Was thinking same thing in reverse: I know who planned this!

Post #8,291 by CRConrad 9/11/01 11:35:04 AM Reply	Was thinking same thing in reverse: I know who planned this! Tom Clancy. Yes, I _AM_ being serious! What's it called, _Executive Orders_ or something; the last(?) Jack Ryan novel, where he becomes President because a hijacked airliner drops in on the Capitolium as the main man is holding the State of the Union speech? Ring any bells...? (Though that airliner was Japanese, IIRC.) So what's the fucking use worrying (and whining) about "bomb recipes on the Internet!", as know-nothings the world over so love to do -- when folks like Clancy publish big fat detailed how-to manuals for the whole fucking operation, regular as clockwork, every other year? Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Reads Fucking Everything
Post #8,338 by marlowe 9/11/01 2:25:23 PM Reply	Just think of Clancy as a white hat hacker. He discovered a vulnerability and reported it. It seems nobody did anything effective about it. Who's to blame in such cases? [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Post #8,348 by jbrabeck 9/11/01 2:53:32 PM Reply	Level of security What should "they" have done? In EO the plane violated restricted air space and was not challenged. Here there was no violation of air space. Do we "shoot down" any plane the is off course? This has to be a well planned and executed attack. Planes chosen for maximum fuel on board (cross country flights that had "just" taken off), targets with maximum vulnerability, visibility and impact. "The Crown Jewels of the New York Skyline", "Home of the American Military" and if correct, missed attempt at Camp David. You want security? Start with: NO carryone luggage, no purse, no laptop, no cell phone, no briefcase, no cane, walker, wheelchair, absolutely NOTHING. Anything can be used to conceal a weapon, and anything can be used as a weapon. Oh, and don't forget, no utensils with your meals, which has to be wrapped in a paper towel (plastic can be used as a weapon also!) It's just like securing your home. A determined thief WILL get in. Your security will just keep the occassional thief and kids out. A determined assassin will get the victim. Just has to wait for the right opportunity. And as Drew (and I) pointed out in other posts, it's probably an inside job, pilot, flight attendant, ground crew, or some with legitimate access. What security can you use against that? Better backgound checks? If that was all it took, why are high level spies found? What "better" backgound check can be done? We take resonable security precautions and hope to keep disaster to a minimum. [link\|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net\|Joe]
Post #8,437 by marlowe 9/11/01 7:04:35 PM Reply	Some things we could do. 1. Make telepresence happen. Haul the RBOC's into court for sabotaging the spread of DSL. Make the Last Mile a matter of national policy. If federal funds are needed, we'll tax airline tickets. And let's establish open standards for video teleconferencing, so we get the needed software fast, and without a monopoly. This will drastically reduce business travel, which will reduce commercial flights, which will reduce opportunties for mishaps and mischief. 2. Password protect the controls in all commercial flights. If the pilot and copilot don't cooperate or are dead, forget about that hijacking. You'll crash all right, but not where you want to. And it'll automatically dump fuel after a timeout period or sudden drop in altitude. Maybe we program an automatic emergency landing for this situation. It's not likely to work, but it can't be worse than nothing. (I'm tempted to suggest a remote control option for aircraft, but that could be hacked into, with disastrous results.) 3. All flight crew are to carry concealed switchblades, and be prepared to use them without warning, and with extreme prejudice. You wave a gun in the cockpit, you get a shiv or two in the back. End of story. 4. No carryons. No discussion. 5. No entry visas for people from terrorist nations. It won't keep them out, but it'll slow them down. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Post #8,440 by static 9/11/01 7:21:41 PM Reply	You haven't been reading comp.risks. The world's air traffic control system and many of the commercial craft flying in it stay in the air and in the control of their designated pilots largely through chance. Okay, that's an exaggeration, but an commercial airliners control systems are hideously complex. New systems and add-ons are notorious for being unreliable. Not to say you have some great ideas, but implementing them would require a vaster upgrade to what is currently flying than I think you quite realized. :-) Wade. "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
Post #8,444 by marlowe 9/11/01 7:42:21 PM Reply	Never mind how vast it is. Would it work if we did it? I don't give a flip how much fuss and bother it involves, so long as it gets the job done. It's that kind of job. You don't put a price tag on such things. Besides, a massive overhaul of a piece of our infrastructure is bound to generate jobs. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Post #8,490 by static 9/12/01 2:14:41 AM Reply	Price tag = very high. Would make air travel expensive like you've never seen before. If the airlines will go ahead and do it. They've shown considerable reluctance over the decades to do anything that provides little or no ROI. It would have to be a "do it or we void your airline license" type of situation. But it's a good idea, yes. Wade. "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
Post #8,692 by marlowe 9/12/01 5:07:17 PM Reply	Or alternately, do it or your liability insurance premiums.. will force you into bankrupty. One favorable court ruling will do the job there. Hell, somebody's gonna have to pay for all those office towers the planes keep ramming into. Who's got the deeper pockets, Bin Laden or American Airlines? And what do body bags cost in bulk these days? [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Post #8,449 by boxley 9/11/01 8:00:32 PM Reply	sleep gas into the cabin no way for the cabin crew to get into the cockpit. Someone waves a knife? press the hiss button, take them to jail. Not an expensive retrofit, afew valves separate the cockpit and cabin air. thanx, bill why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them? Randy Wayne White
Post #8,489 by marlowe 9/12/01 2:06:03 AM Reply	Now there's an avenue to explore. No way to get into the cabin. The cockpit is completely separate from the cabin. The cockpit crew has its own door to get in and out, its own air supply, and its own toilet in there. And its own food cabinet and microwave. Plus cameras and mikes so they know what's going on back there. And why stop at just one partition? We could separate the passenger area into noncommunicating sections, so a given knife-wielding maniac can only menace a fraction of the passengers. That reduces the risks, and cuts down the amount of gas we have to use. But it won't scale down well to anything less than a jumbo. Remember, each section needs its own toilets and stewardess and kitchen thingy. We'd have to redesign the terminals a bit, though. More than one ramp per plane. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Post #8,514 by boxley 9/12/01 8:39:30 AM Reply	cheap low tech solution think stagecoach and shotgun why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them? Randy Wayne White
Post #8,519 by Steven A S 9/12/01 8:58:04 AM Reply	Some concerns I'll note my concerns point by point 1. Feasable, but I don't know that it will really reduce business trips that much. Too many see the face to face approach as the best way to conduct business. 2. Password protection has an inherant trade off. At some level, you have to either err on the side of "ease of access" or security. Do you set up the protection so that potentially the actual pilot can get locked out, or do you make enough allowances that the terrorrist could potentially hack the system. There is no middle ground, and the best balance is a moving target. The best bet for securing the cockpit would be to firewall it off from the passenger cabin with a separate entry point. This would require provisions attached to the cockpit for food, restroom, and extra crew for emergencies. Of course the next concern is how the food is supplied. If the crew brings their own, and stores it themselves, it should be safe, but if it's stocked by the ground crew that leaves the potential for poisoning. The crew themselves would of course have to be screened, but I would severly hope they are anyway!! I do like the knockout gas idea (in theory) that I read elsewere, but that could be potentially tampered with by the ground crew; either disabling it, or putting it under the control of the terrorrist to use for their own end. 3. If you arm the crew, you potentially arm the terrorrist! This is never a good idea, and is the reason it hasn't been done. 4. This is just an inconvenience. Dying from a terrorrist attack where a weapon got carried on would be more than an inconvenience, so this has potential. 5. So, no Irish? This one has a serious grey area. I understand what you're saying, but it's a matter of where the line gets drawn. I'm not saying these were bad ideas, just that they do have weaknesses; and terrorrists love weaknesses. ~~~)-Steven----
Post #8,553 by Another Scott 9/12/01 10:40:56 AM Reply	Some different things which could be done. And some variations on what's been suggested. These could be done with very little expense and it would increase security on a plane. 1. Lock the cockpit door and make it bulletproof, etc., with a window. The door isn't to be opened after the plane leaves the gate - have a lock interlocked with the flight controls so that it can't be opened under operation. 2. Replace some or all flight attendants with bouncers. Seriously. People expect to see big burly guys at night clubs and the like for security. Such a presence on a plane would help reduce the problems due to knife-weilding people, loud agitated drunks, etc. I don't like the idea of arming lots of crew members; the presence of strong people with training in handling lightly armed people is a better approach, IMO. I don't like the idea of eliminating carry-ons. What about purses? Sorry. It won't work, IMO. X-ray, etc., is sufficient if the operators of the equipment are properly trained and if passengers understand the rules. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #8,560 by jbrabeck 9/12/01 10:53:23 AM Reply	Reaction Locked cockpit door... How long would the pilot hold out while the hijacker(s) executed the passengers, one by one, starting with children...? Burly bouncers ... Same as above, plus would they be willing to serve passengers? Or are they just "overhead". No luggage ... Would work. NO "containers" should be allowed in the cabin. Check everything. What is NEEDED from the purse during flight? Stock femine articles in the restrooms to eliminate the need to bring their own. ID and money could be carried in a pocket. [link\|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net\|Joe]
Post #8,564 by admin 9/12/01 11:03:45 AM Reply	Carry-ons Ever travelled with a baby? You cannot go without some sort of carryon if you have a baby. Regards, -scott anderson
Post #8,578 by jbrabeck 9/12/01 11:33:55 AM Reply	Guess you're right Babies can't walk, so they'd have to be carry-on ;-) [link\|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net\|Joe]
Post #8,588 by admin 9/12/01 11:57:38 AM Reply	Kidding aside... Diapers, wipes, food, toys, extra change of clothing. Remember the Northwest planes that sat on the runway for 8 hours? Regards, -scott anderson
Post #8,592 by drewk 9/12/01 12:02:02 PM Reply	That's the point: put the kiddens aside Sorry, I had to.
Post #8,579 by addison 9/12/01 11:38:28 AM Reply	Make 'em check 'em. I've travelled next to a baby. Addison
Post #8,583 by jbrabeck 9/12/01 11:48:35 AM Reply	Sounds like a great idea But you gotta add the smiley!! :-) [link\|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net\|Joe]
Post #8,582 by Steven A S 9/12/01 11:46:16 AM Reply	Instead of locked cockpit door a hardened wall with no access from the cockpit to the passenger cabin would be the only way of effectively securing the controls. Sure the Terrorrists would be able to threaten passengers; may even be able to talk the pilots into diverting their course through such threats; but no matter how many passengers they threaten, they couldn't make the pilots risk everybody's life by crashing into Disneyland or some such by threatening passengers though. Of course the problems with that are that they would need food storage and bathrooms attached to the cockpit, which isn't unreasonable; but the pilots wouldn't be able to get up and move around much on long flights (but that may be restricted anyway - and military pilots (non-cargo) fly under those conditions anyway). They would just need their own entry into the cockpit for ground loading. ~~~)-Steven----
Post #8,699 by addison 9/12/01 5:26:03 PM Reply	Would be simpler... 1. Lock the cockpit door and make it bulletproof, etc., with a window. The door isn't to be opened after the plane leaves the gate - have a lock interlocked with the flight controls so that it can't be opened under operation. To lock the seatbelts and only unlock them one or a few at a time, if needed during the flight. Addison
Post #8,702 by Another Scott 9/12/01 5:38:55 PM Reply	Not as effective, IMO. The critical area is the cockpit. If "one or a few" passengers can be unlocked, then there's a chance they can be up and about doing something nefarious. But if they can't get in the cockpit, they can't control the plane. What about unlocked flight attendants with evil intent? You've still got to secure the flight deck.... I still like the lock-the-cockpit-door-and-keep-it-locked solution (as one of many). It should be relatively easy to retrofit, and relatively inexpensive. New plane designs could include different flight crew entrances, etc. Cheers, Scott.
Post #8,705 by drewk 9/12/01 5:51:38 PM Reply	What if cockpit door lock was controlled from ground? For this to work, we would have to depend on everyone on the ground to have the fortitude to tell the pilots, "Sorry about the passnegers they're killing, but we can't open the door." And for the pilots not to lie to ground control in the face of threats. But it seems like a relatively simple solution that would raise the bar quite a bit. Wouldn't require recertification of the airframe. Could probably be tested and approved pretty quick. Maybe include a "panic button" that unlocks the door but engages the autopilot in a way that can't be disabled except from the ground. This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Post #8,710 by Another Scott 9/12/01 6:07:52 PM Reply	More complexity; pilot is master of the plane. Hi Drew, I don't see the benefit of your proposal over a very sturdy door which might be tied into the controls (via simple switches, etc.) to prevent it from being opened once the plane leaves the gate (even if the pilot wants to). (This does open the door, so to speak, for attacks when the plane is being loaded with passengers, or when the flight crew changes, etc., and the flight deck door is open. But there may be operational ways to mitigate these issues.) And there's the tradition that the pilot is the master of the plane. It's his/her responsibility for it to be operated safely. I don't think that aspect of the pilot's job should be handed to people on the ground. Cheers, Scott.
Post #8,724 by addison 9/12/01 6:48:04 PM Reply	More, really. But if they can't get in the cockpit, they can't control the plane. But they can still destroy it. And I don't know that they can't control it - particularly with things like the Airbuses flying by wire - I don't know how they've protected it from the possibility of being "taken over". What about unlocked flight attendants with evil intent? You've still got to secure the flight deck.... If you've got inside people, that doesn't mean the door can't be rigged. But now you've got the problems of setting up seperate systems in the front, and like I've pointed out, lots of airplanes just aren't viable for that (747 being one). Maybe you could try and make them meet that requirement - but that's one more thing to go wrong. What happens when the door is breached? Because surely there's still a way to do that... there always is. It should be relatively easy to retrofit, and relatively inexpensive. Not really. For it to be heavy enough to be effective, its going to weigh a lot. Plus, figuring where to put it (right now most entrances are right behind the flight deck - that door would bar escapes, after its secured.. And that's still figuring that you handle all the other aspects. Plus after you do that, you'll have to make sure it doesn't change anything. Remember, airplanes fly by throwing money out the window. :) I'd say a more minor door, with possibly a/the sky marshal behind it, where you're talking would work better. But remember, this is a very very rare event. And airplanes are damn fragile anyway - with a knife or a gun, you can take out the whole plane now. (hydraulic lines, flight control wires are usually accessable by panels in the cabin) Locking people into their seats isn't a perfect solution, either. But its not a horrible one, either, would be faster, easier, and would also cut down on other accidents. (But raise the deep vein thrombosis) To put changes into the Flight Data Recorders has taken almost 20 years... as a measure of something "minor" that has to change. Addison
Post #8,742 by wharris2 9/12/01 9:19:44 PM Reply	More simple Make the door to the cockpit locked 1" steel, and tell the cockpit crew that if they open it for terrorists, no matter how many passengers they slash, they will be tried along with the terrorists. Allow the crew to open it on their needs. Keep cockpit door locked at all times. The cockpit doors, as I've seen, are pitiful. An anemic six-year old could kick them in. That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing [as freedom], on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion; yet arms ... should be the last resource. - George Washington
Post #8,361 by inthane-chan 9/11/01 3:17:54 PM Reply	Debt of Honor. Japan has a "shadow war" with the U.S., crippling both the Pacific fleet and the U.S. economy through some really sneaky moves, then shows utter incompetence in actually following through, and gets their ass handed to them by Jack Ryan and company. Vice President resigns due to scandal, Jack Ryan is sworn in as Vice President, then a Japanese 747 crashes into the Capital building, wiping out most of Congress and the President. Jack Ryan becomes President. The story itself was pretty bad, but the ending bit where Secret Service agents on the roof of the Capital building try to shoot down a 747 with Stinger missiles is kind of telling - it's like trying to take out a charging bull with a BB gun. "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #8,384 by jbrabeck 9/11/01 3:43:36 PM Reply	Thanks for correction... Couldn't remember which TC book! [link\|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net\|Joe]

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