Post #82,119
2/16/03 8:49:14 PM
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There appears to be over reliance on polls here
wasnt that the common complaint I had about the undead horse? You cannot foment policy by polls, Use them to gather understanding of the mood of the people but as an elected member of a Republic not a democracy, vote and lead by your own conviction and let the devil take the hindmost. I agree with war with Iraq and think Ashcroft should be hung by his teats until he gets a clue about freedom but I certainly hope that Bush et al isnt waiting for my permissions to act, thats what He was selected to do.
thanx,
bill
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Post #82,121
2/16/03 9:01:53 PM
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What part of "propaganda" do you have trouble understanding?
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Post #82,123
2/16/03 9:09:05 PM
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what part of the post I made are you refering to?
as for propaganda I understand yours just fine. I also disagree with it just fine.
thanx,
bill
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Post #82,129
2/16/03 9:29:44 PM
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Do you understand what "propaganda" is?
what part of the post I made are you refering to? Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you reference polls in your post. You know, the polls of the population to see what their opinion is about a subject. Now, "propaganda" is feeding the public specific information and outright lies so they will have the opinion about a subject that you want them to have. You keep claiming to know that our government has lied to us.... Yet you keep swallowing every new lie that they release.
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Post #82,147
2/16/03 9:58:10 PM
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do you read my posts or just start typing like a maniac?
I was complaining about the use of polls in the decision making process. Talking about taking a flying tangent to another topic that has nothing to do with the original post you then start claiming I believe what the polls represent and are positioned as. To be effective you have to pretend you read what you are responding to. You are leaving even that shred of coherence behind.
thanx,
bill
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Post #82,233
2/17/03 11:32:57 AM
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Item by item.
...you then start claiming I believe what the polls represent and are positioned as. You do. Talking about taking a flying tangent to another topic that has nothing to do with the original post... It is in direct relation to your original post. As I illustrated earlier. I was complaining about the use of polls in the decision making process. That's because you do not believe that you're swallowing their propaganda.
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Post #82,241
2/17/03 11:49:38 AM
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like someone else said around here
you cant prove a negative
thanx,
bill
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Post #82,247
2/17/03 12:05:33 PM
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But you can prove a positive.
So, until someone bags a bigfoot or hooks the Lock Ness monster, I'm going to say they don't exist.
And showing that our current regime is not stating the facts is easy.
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Post #82,249
2/17/03 12:14:04 PM
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What does bigfoot have to do with my wanted to get sadaam
gone with 100 of his closest friends? You agreed with my post about canine predators and empire so you should agree that to remove an ankle biter is good pack policy.
Wouldnt want to diagree with yourself again would you?
thanx,
bill
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Post #82,282
2/17/03 3:39:23 PM
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The question is "why"?
What does bigfoot have to do with my wanted to get sadaam
gone with 100 of his closest friends? Why do you want that? The "why" gets back to the propaganda. You want that because you've been fed propaganda that tells you how much of a threat Saddam is. That propaganda is based upon unproven allegations. But they strike an emotional chord within you. You respond emotionally, even when those allegations are later shown to be unfounded. "Iraq has NUKES!" "Iraq will have NUKES within SIX MONTHS!" "Saddam will use NUKES against the US homeland!" The fear remains within you even when there are no facts to support it. That is "propaganda".
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Post #82,297
2/17/03 5:19:17 PM
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May horsesh*t appear in your wheaties bowl
you would probably think they were strawberries. If you read the post of mine that said Sadaam should have been removed in 1998 when he kicked the Inspectors out. It has nothing to do with oil, WMD or rockets. Those are YOUR excuses and causes not mine.
thanx,
Bill
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Post #82,318
2/17/03 9:15:00 PM
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I believe the term is "whatever".
If you read the post of mine that said Sadaam should have been removed in 1998 when he kicked the Inspectors out. It has nothing to do with oil, WMD or rockets. Those are YOUR excuses and causes not mine. Saddam did not kick them out. They were recalled because of other US operations. But, so what? You claim that it isn't because of "WMD's" or rockets. But that is what the inspectors were there to check on. If you don't care about whether Saddam has "WMD's" or rockets, then why are you so concerned about the inspectors? Like I said, emotional responses.
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Post #82,124
2/16/03 9:09:45 PM
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Viscerally? (so much Gun-Fun, that) - All of it.
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Post #82,127
2/16/03 9:25:01 PM
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I think polls have a lot to do with intent
If for example,
1) If I am an organisation wanting to gage the views of people on specific issues, products, concerns
2) I am 'in power' and thru a 'tame' or predominantly 'r/l wing' press am feeding propaganda/hysteria to the 'people' prior to wanting to carry out an action many might choke on, I would be very interested in a 'litmus test' of how much my propganda was being sucked in by the populace. Do I need to refine the message, do I need to focus on specific hot buttons, do I need to create a more bogeymen etc:, etc:. I could of course request distorted polls & use these to feed the mood I seek to create.
A well known history professor has written tomes on modern media and the ability of governemnts to 'manufacture opinion'. Many people believe that this art is reaching a new zenith. In recent history we had Herr gobbels cited as the penultimate manipulator of public opinion.
If we agree that polls in politics are barely worth the ink on the paper, I would tend to agree. Reason is that on matters of politics, the polls themselves unless conducted by a third party with no identifiable bias, can still at best only provide a 'litmus test' of the current emotional climate on the hot political issue dujour.
Cheers
Doug Marker
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Post #82,377
2/18/03 10:21:02 AM
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penultima thule
In recent history we had Herr gobbels cited as the penultimate manipulator of public opinion.
Would that it were true. You will almost always muddy your meaning by using "penultimate" as though it carried the meaning of "ultimate" on steroids, since it actually means "next-to-last."
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
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Post #82,550
2/18/03 10:48:19 PM
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Merci mon ami - will note that <g>
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Post #82,333
2/18/03 1:08:19 AM
2/18/03 9:52:53 AM
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Re: There appears to be over reliance on polls here
Boxley wants Bush to lead by your own conviction and let the devil take the hindmost, public opinion to the contrary be damned.
Let's see if I understand you...the French and German populations are (if the polls are to be believed) against the coming war by substantial margins. Because the masses are wrong it is irresponsible for their elected leaders to make policy on the basis of these sentiments.
How far is this from Kissinger refusing to allow Chile to retain a socialist government just because the electorate there was irresponsible enough to allow Allende the presidency?
Given the fecklessness of the pee-pul, isn't it just as irresponsible to allow a candidate with a narrow plurality of votes to ascend to the presidency if, in the judgment of their betters (and a 5-4 majority in the Supreme Court), the other candidate would better serve the national interest?
Isn't it deeply, deeply irresponsible, given the terrorist threat, to risk our security by submitting the decisions of the Bush-Cheney-Ashcroft regime to any kind of oversight whatsoever?
Aren't you--to depart from my usual online courtesy for once, because I feel rather strongly about this--a profoundly deluded totalitarian ------? [I'm editing out the expletive here--aware that this leaves an audit trail--because upon reflection of a morning I've decided that it was self-indulgent for me to allow a choleric mood deriving from an unrelated issue to bleed over into my post. Mind you, boxley's followups take the edge off any actual remorse I might have felt over the lapse.]
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Edited by rcareaga
Feb. 18, 2003, 09:52:53 AM EST
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Post #82,341
2/18/03 8:32:49 AM
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Thank you, and If it hadnt of been for people like you
I never would have made it. Sorry I prefer to live in a Republic. Unfortunately the tyranny of the majority is what most of you and yours wish to impose on me. So accept your ashcroftian safety, embrace your democratic form of government until you enter the vats when it is your turn to soylent.
Those who have learned to die can never be enslaved. Live free or die.
thanx,
bill
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Post #82,349
2/18/03 9:01:08 AM
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Here is a wonderful poll that illustrates
the stupidity of blindly following the ignorant mass
[link|http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31081|http://www.worldnetd...?ARTICLE_ID=31081]
of course you will whine your way about who conducted the poll etc etc. It doesnt matter. I have the same political beleifs whether or not they are popular. I dont switch for the convenience of the cause as you appear to be doing in this instant.
If someone in power has the courage of their convictions act upon it. If the people do not agree with those results, the mechanism is act on their convictions and change the government. Trying to govern by bread and circus's may be fine for some but not for me.
thanx,
bill
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Post #82,362
2/18/03 9:36:52 AM
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Bill, yet again responds with an unrelated issue that proves
?
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Post #82,363
2/18/03 9:40:17 AM
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So polls are to be followed only when Doug agrees with them?
how very convenient.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
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Post #82,365
2/18/03 9:42:55 AM
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WTF has poll on palestine to do with this thread ???
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Post #82,367
2/18/03 9:49:55 AM
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read to top post of the thread for subject matter
wasnt that the common complaint I had about the undead horse? You cannot foment policy by polls, Use them to gather understanding of the mood of the people but as an elected member of a Republic not a democracy, vote and lead by your own conviction and let the devil take the hindmost I started by saying Clinton's over reliance about polling was bad, discussed briefly the difference between a Republic and a democracy. I was castigated by RCeaga for not blindly following polls, so I posted a poll he could not blindly follow to show the fallacy of having no convictions except those of other people. Clear enough for ya? thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
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Post #82,370
2/18/03 9:58:52 AM
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"I posted a poll he could not blindly follow"
Why on earth would you think that I have strong feelings one way or another about the creation of a Palestinian state? And why does almost every thread you participate in wind up being nudged onto the subjects of the heroic Israelis or the wicked Clintons?
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
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Post #82,372
2/18/03 10:04:02 AM
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this thread started off with clintons, not ended there
undead horse is the local euphemism for anything clinton related.
thanx,
bill
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Post #82,495
2/18/03 5:05:05 PM
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Nothing.
Nothing at all.
Except about polls in general.
The question I would be asking is WHY do those people polled oppose a Palestinian state.
Which gets back to the propaganda issue.
People are fed propaganda to shape their views of a subject.
Then they are polled to find their views on that subject.
Hey, I recall a poll (sorry, Boxley, I can't find a reference for it at this moment) that showed some percentage of people opposed women's suffrage.
Polls are EXTREMELY useful.
Polls are also EXTREMELY mis-used and mis-representated.
If you want to predict who will be elected, exit polls are very accurate. The person being polled knows how s/he just voted.
If you want to see whether the majority of the US population supports social/political issues in a place they can't even locate on a map .....
That's where propaganda comes in.
Which is why I prefer to go from the abstract to the concrete.
Yes, Boxley is pro-war. Even if it means killing children.
Now, when you get away from the abstract "children" to the specific "crush this particular child's head like this (*crunch*)" he gets all weird.
Because emotions and denial do NOT mix well with facts.
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Post #82,371
2/18/03 10:02:23 AM
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sorry lad, the response would have been different
maybe not as harsh but different. Being a person who is so from locksteping goosestepping heil boy as you could imagine I took offence at your remark. I dont even like anarchists because of all the organization involved. Just because the president and I agree in one issue and disagree on everything else all the polls in the world and social egineering by you or anyone else will not change my view.
thanx,
bill
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Post #82,445
2/18/03 2:31:09 PM
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Believe what you say; never mind the polls --
(For the same reason as we both have contempt for the Popular mass of uninformed opinion on just about everything.)
Simply, I deem that the W-Cheney-Ashcroft-Pearls [fill in those real Troglodytes they call 'consultants'] are tha Actual Axis-of-Evil (for those who love slogans). I believe that this Republic has suffered a coup d'etat -- thus all the fine homilies do not apply.. until the Constitution is Restored, probably via Impeachment for high crimes; the premeditated manipulation of a National Election by relatives and others.
As to that old saw, Courage of Convictions\ufffd - *every* fanatic and bigot has Those. Meaningless.. worse: subversive, that silly idea.
Ashton
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Post #82,471
2/18/03 3:44:48 PM
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sometimes ya gotta use the troglodytes yer dealt with
me as much as you to get their ass out of there.
thanx,
bill
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Post #82,580
2/19/03 4:52:25 AM
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I don't think it has fully sunk in yet -
That the USofA has suffered an ignominious coup -- just like the banana republics we are always so contemptuous of. Enough data is in -now- to begin the forensics in earnest -- and remember, You Were There, in FL:
When the mysterious roadblocks, etc. intended-to and did - prevent 'voters of low status' getting to the polls. The collusion of the whole state apparatus (of the brother of the candidate), the Repub demonstrators hammering on the walls where ballot inspections were occurring (unmolested by Your Local Police)
yada yada.
Eventually though, even more will be pieced together - it's a mine of info waiting to be ordered into knowledge and thence: into the MMO for a coup. This is separate from the events done by 5 of the USSC. The motives of both groups may be similar, but The Vote was the crux - for there to be an issue for the second group at all.
So, until this process takes a final form, the Guy+handlers intent upon launching this war in the tinder box of all tinder boxes -- is unworthy of the respect due an elected Executive in a Republic.
QED
Ashton
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