Post #77,670
1/28/03 9:32:52 PM
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You're in an alternate reality
Most existing small businesses already have an existing software that they use, and it is no trivial matter to change. Besides, for many applications there are no open source alternatives (to give just a few I've researched, solid modeling, PCB layout, and Minitab-like software -- and I'm sure are plenty of other vertical markets are similarly devoid).
So if the software vendor will not support it, fix bugs, etc, THERE IS NO ONE ELSE YOU CAN TURN TO. Sure, you can get Linux help, so what? That won't help with a closed-source vertical market package, especially if the ISV won't fix bugs that have nothing to do with Linux, unless you're running RH. Switch to another package? Sure, that's nice, but it's often a pretty bad option too; switching is expensive, and most small business do not have much margin for extra expenses.
What does unpatched SQL server bug have to do with ISV's only supporting RH? How about sticking on topic.
Fee for service? Isn't that what Andrew does? They have a problem they can't handle, they call him in & pay him. Boy, I guess all these small businesses have never heard about it.
Tony
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Post #77,678
1/28/03 10:35:12 PM
1/28/03 10:41:14 PM
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Re: You're in an alternate reality
tonytib wrote:
Most existing small businesses already have an existing software that they use, and it is no trivial matter to change.
Speaking of alternate realities, I nowhere suggested that businesses should change software.
Besides, for many applications there are no open source alternatives (to give just a few I've researched, solid modeling, PCB layout, and Minitab-like software -- and I'm sure are plenty of other vertical markets are similarly devoid).
You seem to be furiously arguing with some imaginary debate opponent, since I wasn't talking about "open source alternatives". Perhaps you should go back and re-read? I was addressing Andrew's rather peculiar assertions about Red Hat Linux and Red Hat Advanced Server.
So if the software vendor will not support it, fix bugs, etc, THERE IS NO ONE ELSE YOU CAN TURN TO.
Now, you're not only making irrelevant objections, but shouting, as well. What the hell are you talking about, by the way?
Fee for service? Isn't that what Andrew does? They have a problem they can't handle, they call him in & pay him.
Thank you for making my point for me. In the same sense, Red Hat Software releases don't suddenly become unmaintainable just because somebody's Red Hat Software, Inc. support contract has run out. Sorry, I have no sympathy for people who profess being unable to handle negotiation of contracts for what they want to buy.
What does unpatched SQL server bug have to do with ISV's only supporting RH?
Sorry, I was in a hurry and busy, was writing quickly, and got two conversations confused.
Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com
If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
Edited by rickmoen
Jan. 28, 2003, 10:41:14 PM EST
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Post #77,705
1/29/03 12:20:47 AM
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No, you keep missing the point
RH is becoming "the standard" for small businesses looking for MS alternatives because many ISV's making vertical business apps for Linux ONLY support RH.
So, if small biz X runs anything other than RH, they won't get any support from the ISV. Therefore, small biz X will almost certainly likely run RH, because they don't want to pay more for the extra help needed to get ISV app Y running on Debian/SuSE/whatever.
Furthermore, even if they did pay the Linux expert to get it working, it wouldn't help them if they had non-Linux related problems with the app, if the ISV won't help unless they're running RH (which can be the case). So another reason to use RH; after all, they're interested in running a business, not making a IT fashion statement.
So point #1: for most small businesses, RH is the only logical Linux distro. All the Linux experts in the world won't change this. (Of course, if source is available, then other people could provide support & bug fixes.....but this generally isn't the case).
So the small biz now has a choice of running RH supported by RH or supported by someone else. You do have a valid point that others than RH can support RH. However, I suspect RH will increase RHAS sales; the vendor has a lot of built-in advantages.
In summary, I'll give you 1/3; I'll give you non-RH support, but you don't address Andrew's gripes about RH's growing dominance, and "the community" / "great unwashed Linux loudmouths" / whatevers inconsistent treatment of RH & its competitors.
Tony
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Post #77,774
1/29/03 10:18:09 AM
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Re: No, you keep missing the point
tonytib wrote:
You do have a valid point that others than RH can support RH.
Well, thank you for noticing that what I posted, I guess.
...you don't address Andrew's gripes about RH's growing dominance, and "the community" / "great unwashed Linux loudmouths" / whatevers inconsistent treatment of RH & its competitors.
I'm not sure what the point is, there.
In extreme cases, if some idiot ISV's technical support people say their application is "supported only on Red Hat" and I'm trying to report a bug, I'll just load the most recent RH ISOs onto a spare partition, reboot, replicate the bug, and report it again. Adds about an hour to the process. No RHAS or support contracts needed.
Actually, though, about the only situation where just telling the guy that /etc/rh-release says "n.n" when you're actually running Linux-Mandrake doesn't work is Oracle, and, there, the machine needs to be just a dedicated Oracle/RH box that's used for nothing else, anyway.
The sheep-like tendency of some ISVs and the tendency of some cretinous firms to cite any excuse to deny customer service is duly noted.
But those who don't like "Red Hat's growing dominance" can try instead saying "Actually, I'm running Mandrake, and, if you're unwilling to help me, you're going to lose me as a customer" -- and mean it.
Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com
If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
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Post #77,756
1/29/03 8:52:34 AM
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How to intentionally miss a point (new thread)
Created as new thread #77755 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=77755|How to intentionally miss a point]
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Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978|Andrew Grygus]
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Post #77,728
1/29/03 5:12:45 AM
1/29/03 5:14:07 AM
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Re: You're in an alternate reality
Could you explain "vertical market"? I'm developing solutions for one such, yet I don't really understand the concept.
(Edit: Marker-Oxley syndrome correction.)
-drl
Edited by deSitter
Jan. 29, 2003, 05:14:07 AM EST
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Post #77,733
1/29/03 5:55:34 AM
1/29/03 5:56:36 AM
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Vertical market vs horizontal
Traditionally, a vertical market VAR (Value Added Reseller) would provide a top-to-bottom solution (hardware through applications to support) for a very narrow market, such as shoe stores. His system would have little or no application outside shoe stores but be complete for that niche.
A horizontal VAR would provide a solution, such as document scanning, that was applicable to a wide variety of businesses, but would not be a complete top-to-bottom solution for any of them.
Today, the term "vertical market" has been weakened and is often used to designate just a major specialized software application for a particular narrow business niche, such as shoe stores, because in today's more modular world, every "vertical solution" has to be integrated with, and get along with, a whole lot of horizontal stuff like spreadsheets, word processing, Internet browsers, etc.
I remember the days (late '80s) when vertical VARS were being forced to deal with this horizontal stuff, and they didn't like it one bit. They were accustomed to computer systems they supplied being used to run their software and only their software. The clients were now insisting that computers were general purpose devices and they wanted to run word processing, general printing, spreadsheets, and the like on the same system.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #78,318
1/31/03 5:24:11 AM
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Nice description.
I like it. I shall have to remember it.
Wade, who writes software for a living for a vertical market. :-)
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
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Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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