lets go ---> you were entirely wrong about Manson

Post #63,657 by boxley 11/18/02 4:28:32 PM Reply	lets go ---> you were entirely wrong about Manson first you made off the cuff remarks that showed you do not have in depth knowledge of the subject. Vince Bugliousi was the prosecutor and his take is that chuck is entirely sane and he spent 4 years of his life on that case. If you think that Vince with his "personal" knowledge of manson is wrong and you are right, you need the assistance of the professionals as much as you think mr mansun does. I said I have met evil and looked it in the face, you ascribe that it is not possible. Either you are confused or I am. Or you havnt seen anything you would ascribe as evil yet. Since you have no experience and I "claim" I have it leaves somewhat of an impass. So we can either right shift unti BP gets back or go squabble about something else. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] "Fifty-one percent of a nation can establish a totalitarian regime, suppress minorities and still remain democratic." Correction: All that can be achieved with 51 percent of the voters!" Ilanna Mercer
Post #63,660 by Brandioch 11/18/02 4:45:53 PM Reply	Okay. Vince Bugliousi was the prosecutor and his take is that chuck is entirely sane and he spent 4 years of his life on that case. Yes. And Vince was the prosecutor. Prosecutor. Like in "District Attourney". Not a psychologist? No. [link\|http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/manson/mansonothers.html\|Vince] So, Vince wants Manson sane so Manson does not get off on an insanity plea. Just reading the transcript I posted earlier should be enough to show you that Manson's not sane. If you think that Vince with his "personal" knowledge of manson is wrong and you are right, you need the assistance of the professionals as much as you think mr mansun does. Again, Vince is NOT a trained psychologist or psychiatrist. Only those are qualified to say whether Manson is sane or not. I said I have met evil and looked it in the face, you ascribe that it is not possible. That is true. Either you are confused or I am. Possibly. But then I don't believe that drug addiction or insanity are "evil". Or you havnt seen anything you would ascribe as evil yet. Well, if I had, then I probably wouldn't say that there isn't any evil, correct? Since you have no experience and I "claim" I have it leaves somewhat of an impass. Unless you can provide an example that can be verified. So we can either right shift unti BP gets back or go squabble about something else. I'm tired of right shift. I'll drop this here.
Post #63,666 by boxley 11/18/02 7:22:06 PM Reply	deal ^oo^ will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] "Fifty-one percent of a nation can establish a totalitarian regime, suppress minorities and still remain democratic." Correction: All that can be achieved with 51 percent of the voters!" Ilanna Mercer
Post #63,667 by altmann 11/18/02 7:23:11 PM Reply	>> "Just reading the transcript I posted earlier should be enough to show you that Manson's not sane". ... "Again, Vince is NOT a trained psychologist or psychiatrist. Only those are qualified to say whether Manson is sane or not". You should probably space assertions like that a bit further apart in future posts. ;) -- Chris Altmann
Post #63,671 by bepatient 11/18/02 7:57:57 PM Reply	You didn't need me. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #63,689 by deSitter 11/18/02 9:21:19 PM Reply	Evil as you describe it ..is just the "unredeemable" soul that was discussed elsewhere. -drl
Post #63,710 by boxley 11/18/02 10:57:25 PM Reply	beg to disagree an unreedemable soul is not evil as there is no such thing, evil is a calculated choice by an entity that sublimates the soul of a human or acts independently of human essence. Elementals are not evil per se as they do not have capacity for processing thought. Demons are another matter, they are evil as a matter of choice and in every case will choose that which brings chaos and harm to humans and the astral. Human evil is a soul that has turned itself to evil deliberately and with forethought and much meditation and intention to do evil. Are they unreedeemable souls? No. Is it likely they will be redeemed? Probably not but there has been a few cases where that has happened. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] "Fifty-one percent of a nation can establish a totalitarian regime, suppress minorities and still remain democratic." Correction: All that can be achieved with 51 percent of the voters!" Ilanna Mercer
Post #63,736 by Ashton 11/19/02 3:42:21 AM Reply	Judeo- the Christian form of martial arts, has brought into the language these concepts. Psychology, a wannabe-science - but at least one based on observation - has another kind of model. And most any shrink or other observer of our-type animals will say: No One.. ever believes self to be evil! 'Evil' is a religio-word as are demons, incubii, succubi etc. [Nasty Words whose superstitious overtones led to lots of tortured children and older, in Salem and elsewhere] Just as Old Nick, Satan, Beelzebub.. stories of fallen angels yada yada have mesmerized folks. Just as 'things which go bump in the night' generated those images from the state of our fear of the unknown. We come equipped with a vivid imagination. You imagine there's anything New today re the above processes? Transistors can make the internal fearfulness of the I Don't Know's just.. go away silently? A Hitler will tell you that the 'steps' he took were for the (cosmically) Correct placement of \ufffdbermensch into ruling positions over lower; lesser beings. These Supermen, aided by eugenics (phrenology and other imaginined 'science' too) - would be an Improved Species\ufffd. As you are doubtless aware, ensconced in Castle W___ (too lazy to look it up) were His versions of the baggage of a couple millennia of Demonologies, only his choice was to enshrine Erda and other Teutonic fantasies instead of Christian ones. Difference? Only in the attributes and names: in every case inventions of human minds. QED Evil? depends upon the scale of "doing Good" one looks at.. in this "world of dualisms" and the umm collateral damage on that Great Undertaking. Evil.. to seek progress? Which entity shall judge? (We see that "collateral damage" is alive and well as YAN throwaway-line in 2002. Hmmm.) Mad then? That returns us to the pseudo-science of determining basic functional error in the mind/brain - a machinelike synergy only occasionally visited by that (too readily attributed): Original Thought. (We have to try for some model like this - but we need not imagine that the model is more than a crude approximation of our physical and metaphysical 'being'.) Sorry but.. my view is that our sordid history of fright-derived 'entities' and concepts like 'Evil' - which we associate with the behaviour of some of these phantasms: has done and always shall lead to endless succession of warring 'herders of different-named fantasies'. No change in sight, until we are done with the toys of childhood and recognize that WE must construct societies whose laws and mores tend to promote "good behaviour" towards sentient animals and respect.. for the others. Ditto laws and mores which provide deterrence and finally punishment or incarceration for "bad behaviour". (Killing off the defectives - merely devalues the above societal intent to foster respect. It's hypocritical and it doesn't deter 'badness', we have noticed. States killing people is .. rilly a stupid way of teaching 'goodness') We don't need a Demonology to accomplish this - we merely need to grow up. And along the way: lose the freight (and the fright) of our primitive period. Ashton not holding breath PS - Manson? I don't care what you want to call him or attribute his behaviour to: keep a wall between him and the rest of the zoo. It's the best we can do, ignorant as we are. He's where he belongs. We got that one right. It happens.
Post #63,829 by Brandioch 11/19/02 2:34:27 PM Reply	"Evil" and "Good" are magical incantations. Evil? depends upon the scale of "doing Good" one looks at.. in this "world of dualisms" and the umm collateral damage on that Great Undertaking. Evil.. to seek progress? Which entity shall judge? I'd agree. Sorry but.. my view is that our sordid history of fright-derived 'entities' and concepts like 'Evil' - which we associate with the behaviour of some of these phantasms: has done and always shall lead to endless succession of warring 'herders of different-named fantasies'. Again, I'd agree. No change in sight, until we are done with the toys of childhood and recognize that WE must construct societies whose laws and mores tend to promote "good behaviour" towards sentient animals and respect.. for the others. Ditto laws and mores which provide deterrence and finally punishment or incarceration for "bad behaviour". (Killing off the defectives - merely devalues the above societal intent to foster respect. It's hypocritical and it doesn't deter 'badness', we have noticed. States killing people is .. rilly a stupid way of teaching 'goodness') Step #1. Determine what is "good". That is, determine what the basic values, mores, etc will be. Step #2. Determine what is "bad". That is, determine what the taboos and such are. Be able to express these in societal context. We don't need a Demonology to accomplish this - we merely need to grow up. And along the way: lose the freight (and the fright) of our primitive period. :) If I may borrow your phrase, no one thinks of themselves as "immature" or "primative" or "superstitious". We also need to realize that society is NOT something layered upon a group of people. Society IS that group of people. The same thing with politics. Society and politics are BOTH derived from the group. Which was the point of my posting on Fascism. Deconstruct society and the laws and the politics and you get...... The individual. Determine WHAT it is in the individual that results in various societies and political systems and so forth. We don't need magical terms like "good" or "evil" for this. This is nothing more or less than the INDIVIDUAL's value system in practice. When someone's value system clashes with your value system, then that person is "evil". On the other hand, when your value system clashes with the other person's value system, then you are "evil". When his value system supports your value system, he is "good". etc. Now, since it is very unlikely that both value systems are complete opposites......... In fact, the value system of "whatever I want, I should have" usually leads to conflict AMONGST PEOPLE WITH THE EXACT SAME VALUE SYSTEM.
Post #63,865 by Ashton 11/19/02 5:34:21 PM Reply	Did you just define 'Rugged Induhvidualism' ?? [cackle] In fact, the value system of "whatever I want, I should have" usually leads to conflict AMONGST PEOPLE WITH THE EXACT SAME VALUE SYSTEM. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. ..sometimes the Simple is not simplistic. Yup, there it be in a wacko-Nut-shell. The Brits have a briefer summary IIRC, I'm alright, Jack... I have a dream.. Someday we shall evolve to the stage wherein we shall be ready for self-Government. If.. we're here long enough. If. Ashton meanwhile it's the Ren & Stimpy Show writ large
Post #64,389 by deSitter 11/21/02 8:34:25 PM Reply	Ash. you're fascinated by religion -drl I'm so happy I could scalp someone. Mark Twain
Post #64,436 by Ashton 11/22/02 12:16:05 AM Reply	It's fundamental to aberrant homo-sap behaviour.
Post #64,390 by deSitter 11/21/02 8:46:16 PM Reply	Now I know why you embrace anarchy You chased all the order over to good vs. evil. Evil, if it is real, will have a form and a substance. Example: The usual model is spirit in body, which is lame. More like, I am a thing with a soul and a body, but in myself different from either. I am a bridge. And so two things are completed by a third. A thing can have a form but no substance (a triangle) or a substance without form (eternity) but it isn't real unless experience reveals the opposite, and the two ideas live in your mind at once in a sort of superposition. That is the same thing as the bridge between body and spirit. The strange thing is, in a sense evil is an unawareness of the split between form and substance - the kind of awareness you get from the bridge. And so given the three part nature of all this, good is possible because it is aware of evil. -drl I'm so happy I could scalp someone. Mark Twain
Post #64,427 by boxley 11/21/02 11:22:13 PM Reply	nope. more simplistic I have met people who upon first impression I have agonized whether to stop their heart right now, later events prove that I should have "perhaps" done so and suffered the consequences rather than let them keep breathing. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] I leave symbolism for symboltons, Carlin

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