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New Robert A. Heinlen once said

that the foundation of our civilization rests on the study of three things: math, science, and history.

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The intellectual history of our civilization was founded in Athens by Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle. We ignore what they had to say at our peril.

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Simply put, it's very difficult to figure out where you're going if you have no idea where you came from... and Western Civilization came from those three guys. The Apology should be required reading for everyone in our civilisation... it's probably the most impassioned and eloquent defence of democracy ever written, by a man who knew that that democracy was about to have him killed. Another piece of reading that should be required along with The Apology is (IIRC) the Crato... that is, the one about Socrates after his condemnation to death. That dialogue was about his refusal to accept his friends' offers of help to get him out of the city so that he wouldn't be required to drink the hemlock. This was a common practice of prominent citizens who'd been condemned to death at that time and place... and he said no because to do so would be to betray the democracy that he believed in so much. In short, he was willing to die to avoid putting the lie to his impassioned defence of democracy in the Apology.

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Currently, here in Canada, a student who wants to get a wide-ranging exposure to those writings has to take an obscure philosophy course in university... I think that some of them should be taught in grade school. The comment that they won't find it relevant simply means that your exposure to them wasn't handled properly. It's not difficult to find relevance in the Dialogues in today's society... all the teacher has to do is point to televangelists, marketing and publicity, politicians of a certain stripe, and common latter day business practices and relate them to the appropriate dialogues to make them be relevant. This accomplishes a few things in the student's mind... these things, though presented as being novel, are not new at all; these things, though presented as virtuous, have long been demonstrated as being anything but (and by no less an authority than the founding fathers of our intellectual traditions); and that the job of the thinking, active citizen is to be able to see and then to act against the works of sophists whenever they encounter them in their society.

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A fringe benefit of this kind of education is that it will help the student understand their true place in the world and in history... that is, instead of being the centre of the universe, they will realise that they are a small player on the enormous stage of human history... and they will come to realise that the myth of exceptionalism which every regime wants to see promulgated about their particular society in culture is in fact, a myth. This understanding will then mean that they will be in a position to make better decisions about what is to be done in certain circumstances... because they will see that the situation now (for example) is not "the first time ever" and is not "unique in history", and they will have the tools to be able to go back and look at something like the history of the Pelepponnesian wars and understand what happened to the society that acted in that manner. They will be able to make better decisions. This can only be a good thing for the United States in the long run... though possibly quite a few oxen would get gored in the shorter run.

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I think that training in our society's intellectual history, the history of our forms of governance, and the history of thought on the subject of the state, the individual, and the responsibilities of both parties should be taught in grade school. I see nothing in several of the Socratic Dialogues that would be beyond the reach of a lively student in grade six. I speak from personal experience... I was given some of the Dialogues to read by my parents when I was in grade school, and I had no trouble understanding them.

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Appropriate classical works for high school would include things like Thucydides and some of the Aristotelian works... and all of this should be leavened by works from other epochs as well: Descartes, Hume, Hegel, and Marx (yes, Marx!) is a short list. The point here is not to just drive it into them... the point is to get them to read these things critically... at the same time that the students read these books, they should also be being given the intellectual tools needed to read them critically. If this is done... you will have good citizens coming out of the nether end of your primary education system.

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The fact that this is NOT done leads me to believe that the real goal of our (I include the Canadian system as well... we have the same problem up here) education system is to produce good workers and consumers, not good citizens. My grandmother taught school in the nineteen-teens to school children... and children were expected to know who Socrates and Plato were by the time they were released out into the world at the age of fifteen. It was a core part of the historical curriculum at that time... and the parent's would have gotten quite incensed if they weren't being taught that, because they knew that what those guys said taught more about what it meant to be a good member of the community than anything a thousand hours of esteem-building could ever hope to teach.

--\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\r\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\r\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\r\n* Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada                   [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New A post like this -
makes up for 666 pieces of fluff. It may be the briefest utter rout of the Efficiency in EdjaKayshun crowd I've encountered. And I've read some pretty good ones.

Bravo Jack. If that was extemporaneous too.. then it's a bit beyond my small Office to bestow even the,
Brevity Award with 4 BS-snuffing Clusters.

Amidst the above were the principles I lacked the wits - at age 12-14 - to employ countering the vicious fulminations of my Rt-wing wacko Gramma; she of "The Bricker Amendment" and other McCarthy demagoguery of those fearful Commy-pinko times: so exactly comparable to the Pavlovian alarums of the same set-in-concrete-forever wackos of 2002. ("Human Events" - that group still 'lives' - for example)

It might be added that modern 'fiction' too has its proper place in the armaments against the terminally simplistic and lazy of mentation. Heinlein and the panoply of other writers of good fiction - not needing to be suffused into "Sci-Fi" genre - provide pithy examples of what we must counter.. to ever reach civilized-status. Sinclair Lewis even nailed (in '35) the scenario of the accession of our present Leader - more especially his AG mouths many of the platitudes of Lewis's evangelist for Know-Nothingism. But who under 40 has even heard of S. Lewis via today's near-bankrupt edjakayshuns? let alone the Masters.

Believe you are quite correct re the utter necessity for actual experience of the above named forerunners of any Chance! for there to be an Open Society. And a bright 6th grader Can.. become fascinated - probably for life, if not terminally distracted by Bang-Bang electronic mesmerizers...

(The Allegory of the Caves.. couldn't possibly be ingested w/o a firm base within these ideas - for it goes beyond the scale of 'particular societies')



Thanks for the reminder,

Ashton
New Thanks for the compliment, Ash.
--\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\r\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\r\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\r\n* Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada                   [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New your gran would have loved dinner at our house
when my da was alive, communists, wobblies and hardcore socialists all discussing how to make her sort pay a fair wage. UAW steward and well noed for it. had Marx and Engle with me pablum from Freind and Neighbor Eddie. A glasswegian with the common failing of all glasswegians. If it was so fscking good why did ya leave?
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
"Fifty-one percent of a nation can establish a totalitarian regime, suppress minorities and still remain democratic." Correction: All that can be achieved with 51 percent of the voters!" Ilanna Mercer
New You're too smart to constantly imagine Opposites.
Or for that matter, to imagine that -anyone remotely alert- confuses the fascist power-seizure in Russia (as the USSR began) with - the useful analyses of homo-sap behaviour by various of the folks mentioned. That's BS and you know it. You cannot dismiss the thoughts of Marx et al, for the bastard dictatorship which mouthed the words -- precisely as our current Resident mouths platitudes and works against the meaning of many of those.

"Communism" never existed (nor was there much even 'Socialist' about USSR) and it's arguable that it never could: except in a civilization quite advanced from this one. We have no idea if we shall last long eneough to find out. Either. And if we do muddle through - whatever morph of the best ideas around [?] assuredly won't be a textbook copy of Anything Yet\ufffd D'Oh.

It's even more BS if you want to impute this kind of digitalthink to me (or even to marlowe say, who, like another frequent poster: leaves little gems of contradiction or quoted-contradictions in preference to actually engaging the topic at hand).

Maybe we need a War Against Boolean-think.. to add to the growing list of Warz on Warz? #%^&% computers have made it EZ to be irrelevant in spades, while brain is still in Sleep-mode.


Ashton
New hmm I missed something here
I was discussing small childhood rememberences of dinner and meetings at my home with a fairly constant crew of DP's and others from the recent war in europe with the definately different view of the world than most americans could imagine. Having had "real world" experience I was not easily led by the platitudes and pap of parts of the 60's. It helped me make up my own mind about a lot of things. So now your post, I wouldnt thing of you as any kind of either or, I was just wondering what yer gran would have thot as seeing such a collection as was around our house. :-)
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
"Fifty-one percent of a nation can establish a totalitarian regime, suppress minorities and still remain democratic." Correction: All that can be achieved with 51 percent of the voters!" Ilanna Mercer
New Ah.. clearer
I was taking your rhetorical question to be (not so much personally directed as - a legitimate one to ask the politically dispossessed?) "So why did You leave ?? Ummm maybe you were talkin about that cottage-Marxist with the Porsche.. a preachin about his guilt, for not ever takin a Kulak to lunch - at his own lean-to?

So back to the Real question then: crapped drawers, I'd guess. Natch there weren't actual "political discussions"; few adults will give the respect due young folks in such non-discussions - like say:

The history instructor in Fast Times at Ridgemont High, who has the moxie to overlook the Bogus, Dude! patois of his marginally-failing student. The kid demonstrates enough of a grasp of the material: he passes him. Nice.

Anyway, I never saw her in a group of adults - where custom would have forced her to be less Certain in her pronouncements (?) but she was housebroken so.. Now someone actually suggesting something Good & True in MARX! (whom I doubt she ever even skimmed, like legions of the Faithful) ... t'woulda been Fun fer me, anyway.

She were an ~OK 'gramma' in other ways, but a Master Teacher about how to really fuck up your head. RIP.

BTW Bill: she had been married -one of about 4?- to a descendant of the Seward who 'bought'/ arranged purchase of Alaska from the Russkies! [cackle] So she went by last-name Seward.

Small 'world'.

Ashton
New Re: Small 'world'.
On 2001/9/6, I stood at the site where the Alaska transaction took place in Sitka. That was some deal.
Alex

"Let others praise ancient times; I am glad I was born in these."\t-- Ovid (43 B.C.-A.D. 18)
New My memory is fuzzy on the details now
but IIR, Seward had to fight tooth, nail and platitude.. even to get the folks to see:

Such A Deal! [you assholes]

Le plus sa change, le plus ces la m\ufffdme chose (the nongrammatical version, I think).


Ashton
New Let me echo Ashton...
Very Nicely Done!
jb4
"They lead. They don't manage. The carrot always wins over the stick. Ask your horse. You can lead your horse to water, but you can't manage him to drink."
Richard Kerr, United Technologies Corporation, 1990
New Thanks, also.
I'm a great believer in the idea that everyone can learn something from the past.

I also distrust people that suggest that it's not possible to do so. Either they have an ideological axe to grind and wish to ignore some inconvenient facts, or they have an artificially low opinion of people they've never met.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada                   [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Allow me to add my voice to the chorus.
Extremely well done. Probably the most insightful post I've read.
     what the product of an American education should be - (boxley) - (61)
         "How to detect blab in any kind of speech" - discrimination. -NT - (Ashton)
         Additions - (Brandioch)
         Disagree with "the classics" as you stated - (wharris2) - (56)
             Gotta disagree there because if you study the classics - (boxley) - (43)
                 I'm not dissing all classics - (wharris2) - (42)
                     re: nobody today can agree or argue civily on philosophy - (boxley)
                     Yeah sure.. and you can drive a car - (Ashton) - (40)
                         Think about what philosophy has taught you. - (Brandioch) - (39)
                             And that's what's wrong with you - (wharris2) - (38)
                                 One can attend class and still not be "educated". - (Brandioch) - (37)
                                     Small factual error noted: - (Ashton)
                                     yes virginioch there is good and evil - (boxley) - (35)
                                         Vallient job, box - (wharris2)
                                         Can you give more details? - (Brandioch) - (33)
                                             have a f2f with chuck - (boxley) - (32)
                                                 That is "evil"? - (Brandioch) - (24)
                                                     re-read my post - (boxley) - (23)
                                                         Who's Chuck? - (Brandioch) - (22)
                                                             "chuck don surf" chuck aka charles manson evil guarrantied -NT - (boxley) - (21)
                                                                 Manson is insane, deranged, nuts, mentally incompetant, etc. - (Brandioch) - (20)
                                                                     none of the above chuck is entirely sane - (boxley) - (19)
                                                                         I've seen him in interviews. - (Brandioch) - (18)
                                                                             ROFL! - (boxley) - (17)
                                                                                 What? - (Brandioch) - (16)
                                                                                     okay, now explain why Herr Hitler was not evil - (boxley) - (15)
                                                                                         There are only 6 billion people in the world? - (Brandioch) - (14)
                                                                                             lets go ---> you were entirely wrong about Manson - (boxley) - (13)
                                                                                                 Okay. - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                                                                                     deal ^oo^ -NT - (boxley)
                                                                                                     >> - (altmann)
                                                                                                 You didn't need me. -NT - (bepatient)
                                                                                                 Evil as you describe it - (deSitter) - (8)
                                                                                                     beg to disagree - (boxley) - (7)
                                                                                                         Judeo- the Christian form of martial arts, - (Ashton) - (4)
                                                                                                             "Evil" and "Good" are magical incantations. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                                                                                 Did you just define 'Rugged Induhvidualism' ?? [cackle] - (Ashton)
                                                                                                             Ash. you're fascinated by religion -NT - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                                                                                 It's fundamental to aberrant homo-sap behaviour. -NT - (Ashton)
                                                                                                         Now I know why you embrace anarchy - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                                                                             nope. more simplistic - (boxley)
                                                 You can't deal with Brandi, Box - (wharris2) - (6)
                                                     he's actually a conservative with sleeves -NT - (boxley) - (4)
                                                         Or anarchist. - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                                             no yer not I am - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                 That's it. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                                     then you are not an anarchist but a conservative -NT - (boxley)
                                                     Yawn.. the plea of the unarmed in any conflict. Et tu? -NT - (Ashton)
             Robert A. Heinlen once said - (jake123) - (11)
                 A post like this - - (Ashton) - (7)
                     Thanks for the compliment, Ash. -NT - (jake123)
                     your gran would have loved dinner at our house - (boxley) - (5)
                         You're too smart to constantly imagine Opposites. - (Ashton) - (4)
                             hmm I missed something here - (boxley) - (3)
                                 Ah.. clearer - (Ashton) - (2)
                                     Re: Small 'world'. - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                                         My memory is fuzzy on the details now - (Ashton)
                 Let me echo Ashton... - (jb4) - (1)
                     Thanks, also. - (jake123)
                 Allow me to add my voice to the chorus. - (mmoffitt)
         Short answer: a citizen. -NT - (jake123) - (1)
             !! thou sayest -NT - (Ashton)

Up is down. Left is right. Black licorice tastes good.
300 ms