IWETHEY v. 0.3.0 | TODO
1,095 registered users | 0 active users | 0 LpH | Statistics
Login | Create New User
IWETHEY Banner

Welcome to IWETHEY!

New This is getting too easy
Right after what you quoted:
Office 11 supports what Barzdukas described as "arbitrary XML support." Companies that already have deployed Web services would find that their existing schemas--or XML vocabularies--would work with Office 11.

"We'll be able to read their XML in applications like Word and Excel," Barzdukas said. "Therefore, they won't have to rework their XML schemas.
Note that there is no mention of then saving or exporting files in formats that anyone else's applications can read. Once again, they are claiming improved ability to import everyone else's formats.

And just what does "arbitrary XML support" mean? Does it mean that users will be able to chose what type of XML to use? As in "import the OpenOffice XML format and save in the MSOffice XML format"?

Color me unconvinced that:
"It's a big risk for them," said Forrester Research analyst Ted Schadler. "They open up the file format, open up the data feed, open up the template format, and somebody can make a cheaper Office or a better Office. They're going to lose that lock on the file format they've had for 15 years."
I see no indication of opening anything up. All I see is the same old claim that if you buy their next product, you won't have any "upgrade" pains. They can import all your existing stuff cleanly.

[Edit]

And how about this, further down:
"If Microsoft can get people to write their applications to Office and make it part of their business processes, it's harder for people to throw Office out and replace it," Silver[1] explained. "They can make it an integral part of actually getting the business done, instead of (using it for) just writing letters."

"XML makes Office a rich client for Web services and to fit into larger business processes," Barzdukas[2] said.

As Office evolves into a platform for developing XML-connected documents, businesses could start a new cycle of application development that could also benefit software makers other than Microsoft.[3]

"We think it's a good idea and customers will benefit from the changes," Schadler[4] said.
[1] Gartner analyst Michael Silver
[2] Gytis Barzdukas, director of Office product management at Microsoft
[3] This seems aufully close to an opinion to be presented unattributed. Gives the impression the publication is endorsing the conclusion.
[4] Forrester Research analyst Ted Schadler, the same one who described the "big risk" of "opening up the file format".

So we have one analyst explaining how this is going to tie businesses more closely to Office, one saying how this is risky because it cuts the ties, the official Microsoft position that it makes MSOffice more central to businesses. The MS position is of course that this is a good thing. The analyst who thinks its a risky opening up of the formats also says it's a good thing. Since the (apparent) position of the magazine is that it could spur a new round of development by competitors, they seem to be buying the openness argument. Excuse me if I (still) remain unconvinced.
===
Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978|Andrew Grygus]
Expand Edited by drewk Oct. 22, 2002, 12:03:08 PM EDT
New Re: This is getting too easy
To make that happen, Microsoft is turning to what some analysts say is a risky strategy. The company is adopting Extensible Markup Language (XML) as a second file format in all Office applications, to enable better data exchange between the productivity suite and back-end software, such as databases. This "opening up" of Office could end Microsoft's lock on document file formats that have boosted Office sales in years past and made the software the de facto standard for desktop productivity.


So, for what that's worth. Second file format, in the tradition of RTF, probably. No one will use it unless requested to.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Like I said, strictly an import filter
And as you said WRT rtf, unless someone explicitly chooses "Save as type" it'll never really exist.
===
Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978|Andrew Grygus]
New Last I heard,
Office 11 will read XML pretty well, but won't really write it effectively. That capability was disabled to protect the current monopoly and is reserved for a "future version of Office".
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Just curious...
Was that meant as a joke, or serious?

Oh, and I wouldn't be surprised IF they go ahead and use XML as the new save format by default as well - but then encrypt it with a proprietary compression scheme copyrighted by M$ and protected under the DMCA.

All saving in the XML format means is removing the compression and encryption. "Hey, you can save in the standard format, but our format is so much smaller!"

That, plus it still won't solve the issue of ActiveX components being included with documents...
End of world rescheduled for day after tomorrow. Something should probably be done. Please advise.
New Besides, XML is a framework
If whatever Word/Excel/Office lookalike doesn't know what "msoft_format_special" is (just picking something out of the air), it should still be able to parse the XML, it just won't be able to do whatever "msoft_format_special" is trying to tell it to do.
New msoft_format_special
parses the binary data that actually composes the document. Compressed/encrypted/proprietary formatting language, it doesn't matter. XML doesn't guarantee that the data is actually text and readable, does it?

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
New Re: msoft_format_special
IIRC (If I Read Correctly) XML guarantees that it's text, but doesn't guarantee readibility. So... they could encrypt the data in the fields and make it legitimate XML while still garnering protection via anti-circumventing laws, like the DMCA. This would in fact close the format even more than it currently is... clean room reverse engineering of binary data formats is perfectly allowable under the law, but reverse engineering encryption of data is not... cf. Skylarov, DeCSS.
--\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\r\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\r\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\r\n* Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada                   [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New No guarantee at all
IIRC (If I Read Correctly) XML guarantees that it's text, but doesn't guarantee readibility.
Not at all. XML just describes the structure for formatting tags, and allows linking to an external DTD that defines the contents and parameters of the tags. It basically allows you to define a custom markup language.

It is perfectly legal in XML for one of the tags to define binary data. This is required for images, but can easily be used for arbitrary binary streams. ie: ActiveX controls, Java applets, compressed/encrypted text, etc.
===
Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978|Andrew Grygus]
New Well, hold on there a second...
If I were to get something that told me it was XML, I (per your statement) could legally assume it's text. I could then legally reverse engineer that text. That it's encrypted is hardly an issue...unless Microsoft specifically claims it's encrypted, so as to invoke whatever shell of DMCA it might to protect its monopoly. And they wouldn't do that (IMnsHO), because it would be "bad press". (I can see the headlines now in the Chicago Sun-Times: "Microsoft Admits Scrambling Your Data." "Your Letters to Mom Encoded so Only Microsoft Can Read Them." Might actually be fun....)
jb4
"About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. "
-- Edsger W.Dijkstra (1930 - 2002)
(I wish more managers knew that...)
New Reading some of the other comments,
So it is special, but it isn't special? Heehee.
     MS Office 11 to have XML document format - (admin) - (26)
         This is getting too easy - (drewk) - (10)
             Re: This is getting too easy - (admin) - (1)
                 Like I said, strictly an import filter - (drewk)
             Last I heard, - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                 Just curious... - (inthane-chan)
             Besides, XML is a framework - (wharris2) - (5)
                 msoft_format_special - (imric) - (4)
                     Re: msoft_format_special - (jake123) - (2)
                         No guarantee at all - (drewk)
                         Well, hold on there a second... - (jb4)
                     Reading some of the other comments, - (wharris2)
         Ugh - die XML, die! -NT - (deSitter) - (1)
             Seconded. -NT - (mmoffitt)
         Don't trust published MS formats - (warmachine) - (12)
             Trial and error? Try VB database access sometime - (wharris2) - (11)
                 If you use DAO, you deserve what you get. - (mmoffitt) - (10)
                     Re: If you use DAO, you deserve what you get. - (wharris2) - (9)
                         Stumped me. - (mmoffitt) - (8)
                             Something about bound controls? - (wharris2) - (7)
                                 OMG! The "Data Control". - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                                     Chuckle - (wharris2)
                                     Clarification/emphasis needed: - (CRConrad) - (4)
                                         Hmmmm... - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                             Even better than that! - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                                 Devil's Advocate. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                     Topsy-turvy upside-down argumentation from MikeM (new thread) - (CRConrad)

tar: Premature end of archive
60 ms