My ass

Post #54,974 by wharris2 10/4/02 10:17:03 PM Reply	My ass Apple has been anti-consumer from the word "go". Oh yeah they got a great feel-good campaign but ask'em how much more you have to pay for their laptops vs. an Intel Winblows machine The lawyers would mostly rather be what they are than get out of the way even if the cost was Hammerfall. - Jerry Pournelle
Post #54,987 by boxley 10/4/02 11:29:23 PM Reply	about the same bang for buck was pricing ibooks when I bought my imac. Will not bu a new intel box so I dont have to pay the $MS tax. Will build from scrap and install linux. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] qui mori didicit servire dedidicit
Post #54,998 by snork 10/5/02 12:40:00 AM Reply	Definition of "anit-consumer" Your definition is obviously different than mine. I don't equate cheap as pro-consumer. I don't think that is what you think, either, but it does seem implied by your comments above. Apple provides a product that I like at a price point that I'm willing to pay. They are one of the few tech companies that has been able to maintain margins through the current slump. Again, I don't equate that to "anti-consumer". You seem to think that Apple doesn't price in line with the competition. That's a legitimate reason not to buy one. However, I still think that they have a decent grip on what the general consumer population is after. YMMV. "With the bravery of being out of range." - Roger Waters Cliff
Post #55,041 by ben_tilly 10/5/02 7:47:21 AM Reply	You mean anti-competition They have consistently fought against having clones undercut their own business. (A trend that started with Franklin Ace and continues until today.) But they aren't into getting into bed with other would-be monopolists. And if you have their stuff, they want it to be as usable as possible. (Albeit sometimes with additional purchases from them for more hardware.) So they aren't anti-consumer, they just want consumers to consume from them. Cheers, Ben "Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link\|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html\|Walter Mead]
Post #55,068 by tonytib 10/5/02 3:37:05 PM Reply	A lot like Sony
Post #55,072 by ben_tilly 10/5/02 4:51:39 PM Reply	Except that.... Sony also has a content arm which is heavily involved in stupid tricks like making CDs unreadable on computers. Apple doesn't have that conflict of interest to confuse them. Cheers, Ben "Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link\|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html\|Walter Mead]
Post #55,114 by Ashton 10/6/02 8:20:03 AM Reply	How much is it worth - - to pay No $ to M$, thus hastening their moribund state? - to experience quite fewer s/ware problems (average incompetent user) including the gamut from original design errors, Registry, dll-Hell.. on through script-kiddie attacks/effects? Cheaper hardware? the difference has never been less than today, last I heard. But what is your TIME worth? (IT professionals don't count - you're supposed to be able to keep Any old POS limping along, and I gather that most here indeed work on more POS's than 'other') Ignorantly or other - for the past year+ I've been steering folks with newbie questions Applewards - especially after I explain what happens if you install anything from XP onwards (and now.. W2K - if you decide Not to skip SP-3 and all future ones) WTF is 'freedom from incessant snooping' WORTH? <<< (to me: a Lot) My next machine, when 98-lite is rendered artificially unuseable - will be Linux (if feeling masochistic about memorizing YAN 5000 factoids) or Apple (if willing to pay for convenience). Nothing I can think of today - except a Huge bribe, would induce me to allow a 'connected' XP machine in the house. (Even if it were a better-grade of dumbed-down POS than previous) Hardware price means Nothing IMhO. I deem Jobs a less sociopathic massive egotist than the Billy/Bally duo - and decidedly less interested in personal invasions, less dangerous to countless peripheral areas [so far...] Ashton
Post #55,138 by jake123 10/6/02 1:57:09 PM Reply	Consider eComStation for your next upgrade:) You get to have the cheaper hardware, no virii, a good UI, and you won't be passing money MS-wards. Also, you'll find that getting off the MS train means you won't need to upgrade your hardware every two-three years either... the oldest box on my network is seven years old... and it still works fine, except for Mozilla. Prices are going to be coming down soon... I anticipate you could get it for app. 200 bucks, and the license is NOT tied to your hardware... so you can take it from machine to machine with no problem. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- * Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca * * [link\|http://consultron.ca \|[link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] ] irc.ecomstation.ca * * Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] * -------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #55,447 by Ashton 10/8/02 5:55:54 AM Reply	'Conservation of laziness' Seems the price is right, and I'm aware of the stability and the high esteem of the Workplace Shell (in the beginning; guess eComStation supersedes that as GUI?) ATMs kinda demonstrate the reliability, too. Now if.. I could parlay the countless hours from CP/M through Intel into OS/2 with even less pain & suffering than Appleizing or starting as newbie on the Linux learning curve.. hmmm. Will ponder. Thing is - I'm about out of patience for starting over, knowing what that's like, but not finding the 'satisfiction' of the accumulated lore enough reward. Done that. Wonder how single users fit into IBM's future scheming, just a tad. Still, since I don't need any arcane applications, you're right - I should at least find out a bit more. (I also won't be setting up any networks; I explored enough to see exactly why I'll let that one pass ;-) Thanks for tip. Ashton
Post #55,510 by jake123 10/8/02 2:30:14 PM Reply	Re: 'Conservation of laziness' Moving from CP/M -> Intel -> OS/2 will be less of a curve than going to linux... the prompt is based on the same general principles and commands as DOS, which gets a lot of its feel from CP/M. Personally, I've gotten quite a bit of satisfaction out of my accumulated OS/2 lore... the desktop is fully scriptable, which means that you get to have complete control after learning some basic calls in REXX (SysSetObjectData being a biggie...). eComStation is using the WPS as its base; however, we've reorganised it in light of current practice (ie- the Internet is a lot more of a Big Deal now than it was in 1996;). Also, eComStation is adding a lot of software to make dealing with more arcane methods of connection (arcane to those of us who remember when slip was how you got connected, anyway:) easier... setting up a DSL connection should be very easy to do, and while you said you don't want to do a home network, if you change your mind putting it on the Internet will be pretty easy too. We've also updated a lot of system resources, for things like icons and so on, to help make the interface nicer to look at. One thing to note... when OS/2 moved from version 4.0 to 4.5x, it actually became faster and more efficient in its use of system resources, not slower and fatter... and upgrade that was really an upgrade! ;) As for IBMs plan for single users... well, their plan is to farm them out to us. If you're into usenet, you can take a look at news.ecomstation.nl (or news.ecomstation.ca... that's the Canadian mirror that I run) to take a look at our online fora and see what's going on. If you have any further questions, don't hesitate to contact me. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- * Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca * * [link\|http://consultron.ca \|[link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca]] irc.ecomstation.ca * * Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] * -------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #55,542 by jake123 10/8/02 6:11:20 PM Reply	While I'm at it... I took a screenshot of my eCS 1.0 desktop, with some of the UI enhancements slated for version 1.1 [link\|http://consultron.ca/screen.png\|here]. Here are a few of the notable features in the screenshot: The eCenter (along the top) has some functions similar to the taskbar in Windows, as well as offering the ability to drag and drop objects to it for easy access. For example, you can drop a folder on to it and then browse through the folder as a menu. There are quite a few widgets available for the eCenter, including tcpip network traffic monitoring, PC Health monitoring (ie- temp, fan speed, etc) and so on. Also, there is a widget called RexxGuage which permits people to easily develop plugins for the eCenter using rexx. The Pager in the lower left hand corner is the virtual desktop interface. Windows can be dragged using the right mouse button from one window to another, or even moved within its window from the pager. The colour schemes and fonts used in the pager are configurable by the user. Some of the other things you see in the screenshot are addons to the desktop that aren't part of the eComStation release, but are easily available: The toolbar along the right and along the bottom are two Launchpads, which was a feature introduced with OS/2 Warp version 3. I've enhanced them with an addon called Bubblepad, which provides flyover names when you move your mouse over the buttons, and also allows for configurable border sizes and so on. The one along the bottom contains templates; this allows me to create objects by simply dragging them to the desktop. The ones I have down there are for a Program Object (similar in principle to a Shortcut in Windows), a Folder, a Customer Data Folder (a template I created that has the "usual" data files I need when I open a new customer on my system), an Invoice document, and a copy of my company's letterhead. This allows me to create a letter whenever I want by simply dragging and dropping the object to its intended location. The widget along the bottom is called the Sysbar/2 Pipe Monitor, which comes with a fair number of widgets, and can be programmed with rexx for more. The program you're looking at is [link\|http://www.bitchx.org/pm\|PMBitchX], an Internet Relay Chat client... though the latest version is available from [link\|http://hobbes.nmsu.edu\|Hobbes] as it has a new maintainer now. I should note that PMBitchX is fully congruent with the latest release of the nix version. Again... if you have any questions, feel free to email me at the address in my .sig. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca * * [link\|http://consultron.ca \|[link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca]] irc.ecomstation.ca * * Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] * -------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #55,449 by tuberculosis 10/8/02 6:19:36 AM Reply	WTF? They sell products at prices people like. They're not willing to let other people sell knockoffs of products they design. Seems fair. OTOH, they provide enough source code that you could if you wanted to, build a PowerPC box from parts, get the darwin OS running on it, install the rest of OS X, and have yourself a fair clone. They are the only company more interested in letting me use my content than in keeping me from sharing it (although they do a little work to make it inconvenient). They actively want me to take my content and enjoy it (via iPod or powerbook). Rip, Mix, Burn. Sounds pro-consumer to me. I am out of the country for the duration of the Bush administration. Please leave a message and I'll get back to you when democracy returns.

Welcome to IWETHEY!