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New my apologies to Doug and personally to Scott Ritter
for doubting his motives. Just saw him interviewed by Bill O'Reilly. His "apparent" reversal of opinions is not a reversal at all just being spun that way. The 400k was costs he made 58k in salary but incurred debt so he broke even on the deal. His conclusion is simple, we had a UN mandate to evict iraq from kuwait nothing more and unless hard evidence is presented we cannot "go after" sadam because of the UN charter. I may not agree with him but he is sincere so apologies for my thinking he was another "hired" consultant of which we see so many these days.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/Resume.html|skill set]
[link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/index.html|boxley's home page]
qui mori didicit servire dedidicit
New Re: Bill - no worries mate - takes ...

guts to appologise, in public.

Am personally pleased if we all learn from & test each other on what we perceive. It is one of the reasons I like coming to these forums.

Cheers

Doug

New Re: I found this article which accurately states his case
[link|http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2001/msg01175.html|Ritter & his issue over Iraq]

(I searched Goolge with criteria - Ritter Butler Liar -


Where Ritter finds fault with the get-Saddam campaigns
Former UN chief weapons inspector says US needs legal basis for attacks
George S. Hishmeh
Special to The Daily Star

WASHINGTON: Scott Ritter is a straight arrow. He prides himself for
telling it like it is, recognizing that he is a lone wolf caught in the
midst of an international argument that could ultimately precipitate a
war much bloodier than the one underway in Afghanistan.

The former UN chief weapons inspector who hounded Iraq's Saddam Hussein
for nearly a decade has shifted his target, and now aims his guns at his
government's 'unilateral policy' a policy of regime removal in Iraq.

Is this a new Scott Ritter?. There is no such thing as an old Scott
Ritter or a new Scott Ritter, he insisted. If I am anything, I am the
most consistent person out there on Iraq. I have never cut Saddam
Hussein any slack. As a weapons inspector my job was not to worry about
(him). My job was to worry about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. If
people ask me my opinion I would say he is a brutal dictator. That's
putting it mildly.

The views of the former American Marine stick out like a sore thumb in
the debate now underway in Washington between hawkish officials of the
Bush administration, particularly those in the Defense Department and
the less combative State Department over what some see as the unfinished
war against the Iraqi strongman. What remains unsettled, some reportedly
believe, is only the question of timing and military strategy, now that
the rout of the Taleban and Osama bin Laden's Al-Qaeda network has made
these two points seemingly moot.

I take comfort in one thing and one thing only, and that is the truth,
the facts, Ritter told The Daily Star. Whether people rally around me
I couldn't care less. I'd like them to, I'd like them to see who is
speaking the truth, I'd like them to challenge people who make
statements. I get challenged every time I make a statement. But I can
back it up.

Am I isolated? Certainly. Do I feel alone? Yes. Does it bother me? No,
not at all.

Ritter explained the problem his inspection team had with Iraq after the
1991 Gulf War, noting that UN Security Council Resolution 687 required
total disarmament, and so 90-95 percent was not good enough, although
it meant that fundamentally Iraq has been disarmed. From a qualitative
standpoint, Ritter said, Iraq no longer possessed a weapons program
under the law (but) that 90-95 percent was not good enough. This meant
his team had to investigate how Iraq hid its programs in the past, and
how it might continue to do so what we called a concealment
mechanism.

This effort, he continued, has put us in conflict with the Iraqi
government on a number of fronts, primarily over the issue of national
sovereignty and Iraqi national security, because the inspectors tried
to gain access to presidential security, intelligence services,
sensitive military facilities, even presidential palaces.

A lot of people misconstrued that work as somehow Scott Ritter (was)
waging his own private war against Saddam Hussein, he said laughing.
All I am doing today is going forward in the same way I went forward as
a weapons inspector, mindful of the facts and operating with high
integrity.

Here, Ritter fired his first salvo. The big problem is that the US
government seems not to understand that, in order to have international
support to confront Saddam Hussein, the US has to be operating within
the framework of international law. It cannot do this by itself. And we
definitely can't do it if we are going to ignore legal fundamentals such
as the UN Charter.

The Security Council has never passed a resolution which targeted Saddam
Hussein, he said. And yet the United States pursues, as its own
unilateral policy, a policy of regime removal in Iraq and we are using
Security Council disarmament provisions as a means of facilitating our
own policy. We are creating a situation which brings immense suffering
to 22 million innocent people caught in the middle.

Ritter attributed this misguided US stance to the private, political
agenda of some key officials in the US government who, frankly, have
hijacked US national security for their own purposes. He identified
these as Defense Secretary Donald M. Rumsfeld and his deputy, Paul
Wolfowitz, along with Richard Perle, head of the Defense Policy Advisory
Board, a non-governmental group, and James Woolsey, the former CIA
director. It appears they will do anything it takes to make just cause
for the United States to go to war, even though, legally, there is no
just cause.

Elaborating on the propaganda mills engaged in this anti-Hussein
campaign, Ritter cited the pro-Israel Washington Institute for Near East
Policy as just one of many voices clamoring for the past decade for
the removal of the Iraqi leader. They have yet to put forth a
consistent argument. Their reasons for his removal continue to change as
the political scene.

This war of rhetoric, as he put it, just demonizes a demon but
without any substantive facts on the table that are worthy of going
to war with.

Ritter also minced no words about Richard Butler, the former head of
UNSCOM, the UN agency overseeing Iraq's disarmament and who can be seen
regularly on television castigating the Baghdad regime. He said he found
Butler to be a complicated character who in time disgraced himself
as the head of the UN commission for which Ritter worked until 1998.
(Butler) destroyed his reputation as a diplomat, Ritter, who now
serves as a news analyst with Fox television, claimed. He destroyed his
reputation as a politician. The man is a liar. The man has been exposed
as somebody who has no ability to maintain integrity in positions of
high responsibility. He betrayed the special commission, he destroyed
the weapons inspection process almost unilaterally.

In turn, Ritter has been taken to task for seemingly contradictory
assessments about Iraq's weapons potential.

Statements he made before two Senate committees in 1998 seem to
contradict his current position. Once (the) effective inspection regime
has been terminated, he was quoted as saying then, Iraq will be able
to reconstitute the entirety of its former nuclear, chemical and
ballistic missile delivery system capability within a period of six
months.

He explained in the interview: Now I would say it's unlikely that it
is the case. It's unlikely that these plans are in place, it's unlikely
that Iraq would seek to implement them. But the most important thing to
point out is that even if Iraq had these plans, it can't implement them
if you had weapons inspectors in Iraq. And that's why I have always
argued for the return of weapons inspectors (for monitoring purposes).

Where he parts way with the Bush administration is in the next step. If
you want to confront Saddam, you have to do so based on the foundation
of legality. Now, if you pass (at the UN Security Council) a finding of
compliance under (Resolution) 687 and you offer to lift the oil embargo,
then in accordance with the law now the United States is adhering to
the law you demand that Iraq adhere to its obligations which are to
allow monitoring inspectors under (UN resolutions) 785 and 1051. Should
Iraq refuse to do so, now you have a clear case against Saddam. Now you
can start making the case that Iraq is a rogue nation, a lawless nation,
a nation that refuses to adhere to international standards, and you can
start making the case for war. But you cannot make that case if you, the
United States, are yourself operating outside the framework of
international law.

Ritter believes Iraq has no choice but to accept this offer. Saddam's
days would be numbered (if) the entire world recognized that Iraq has
no intention of complying with international law, he said.

According to Ritter, Iraq at present can make the argument that we did
what we are supposed to do. We got rid of our weapons and now it is up
to the Security Council to do what it's supposed to do and, until the
Security Council does that, we do not want to deal with weapons
inspectors.

Right now, he added, the United States has so clouded the situation
with its own ridiculous policy of overthrowing Saddam Hussein that it is
very difficult to make an argument that Iraq is the bad guy. Iraq right
now looks very much like the nation that is being pursued relentlessly
and irresponsibly by the United States.

George S. Hishmeh, a one-time editor-in-chief of The Daily Star, is an
Arab-American journalist now based in Washington

*********************

From my own perspective Ritter says what I have in many past posts only Ritter was there
& involved whereas I am an interestd observer. I had long ago become suspicious then
hostile to Richard Butler despite first admiring him as a tough no-nonsese guy. Now I
think he is exactly what Ritter claims (& not because Ritter 1st said so, just the way
he kept going after hussien on what seemed like increasingly shaky ground and for some
ulterior motive)>

I also came to believe he was a CIA man long before Ritter said so - that
in itself is not at all a bad thing but when someone tells fibs to ferment war that is plain
bastardry.

As mentioned in other posts - I have become quite alarmed at a rapidly escalating anti-US &
anti-Bush feeling growing throughout the western world (it was always going to be there by
the Arabs). I too have a growing anger toward Bush Rumsfelt & Cheney & have observed them
set up this Iraq attack ever since Bush slipped into office by the most dubious of margins.

I believe I well understand what their motives really are but wish to God Powell had more
influence over the situation.

In balance I think Ritter has taken an unpopular but entirely decent position on this mad
undertaking of the Republican right. Bush is not flirting with them as some suggest he is
part of them and I am willing to predict that Bush will pay dearly for his naive & misguided
support for engineering an invasion of Iraq. In my book and said with all seriousness - Bush
and his mates are no less evil that Hitler & his leadership at the time they set the world
on the path to WWII with their horrific invasion of Poland. While few people feel nice about
Saddam Hussien, many do despise unilateral and naked aggression and international deceit.

Doug Marker
******************** After posting the above I found this additional Ritter remark
that I think echos points made above....

"Our foreign policy's totally corrupt. We have a foreign policy that's
indefensible. I think what we're doing with Iraq borders on the criminal,
actually, and I'm very pro-American."

[link|http://www.jsonline.com/news/insideiraq/aug00/ritter08080700.asp|The source link]




Expand Edited by dmarker2 Sept. 15, 2002, 03:06:28 AM EDT
New SF Chronicle take
May be found [link|http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/09/14/MN81272.DTL| here.] Deemed, in the US environment ~ a more liberal paper than most. I'd say actually - a more nearly centrist one, rather than the usual "conservative" / Right slant to be found in 80, 90%? of the major city Corp-papers. Many cities are down to one daily newspaper, these days. Very few of these could be fairly dubbed 'liberal' IMO. But of course, with musical definitions of such words here: it's a crap shoot to know what anyone means. They are all now epithets.
First part:
Ex-weapons inspector berates war plans

David Wallis, Special to the Chronicle Saturday, September 14, 2002

To his admirers, Scott Ritter -- who turned up in Baghdad last week to blast the Bush administration's war plans before Iraq's parliament -- is something of a modern-day Daniel Ellsberg, who serves his country patriotically by protesting a government policy he considers misguided and immoral.

To his detractors, Ritter is a shill for Saddam Hussein -- a deeper-voiced Tokyo Rose. Ritter "is a paid spokesman now for Iraq. The traitor bastard should be shot," one critic of the former U.N. weapons inspector fumed on the online forum Paratrooper.com.

The decorated ex-Marine is used to the hostility. Once branded as a CIA agent by Saddam Hussein because he often surprised Iraqi intelligence with aggressive, no-notice inspections, Ritter claims he survived three assassination attempts during his days as a U.N. weapons inspector there.

He resigned his U.N. post in 1998, publicly scolding the Clinton administration for undermining efforts to root out Hussein's weapons of mass destruction. A registered Republican, he voted for George Bush in 2000. But his 1999 book "Endgame: Solving the Iraqi Problem Once and for All" (Simon & Schuster will reissue the book next month) has since alienated many Republicans and Bush supporters because it advocates a diplomatic solution to the Iraqi standoff.

"Ritter has many detractors for a reason," Stephen F. Hayes wrote in the the Weekly Standard. "He lies."

Just before his trip to Baghdad, Ritter sat for an interview at his home outside Albany, N.Y.

Q: What is the case against the Bush administration's Iraq policy?

A: There is no case that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. The weapons inspectors eliminated 90-95 percent of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capability . . . The indicators of Iraq's efforts to reconstitute are readily detectable, not only by U.S. intelligence but by Israel, France, Germany and Great Britain. No nation has brought any credible evidence to substantiate allegations that Iraq has reconstituted its weapons.

This war is about political ideology. It's about a bunch of neo- conservatives in Washington, D.C., who have hijacked the national security of the United States for the pursuit of their own politically driven ideological objectives.
--------------< snip >------------------
Alas, sfgate.com's so-called Boolean search... for "30 days" on Butler + Ritter + Iraq - sports [there's a sports 'Butler'] listed lots of unrelated junk - so it's difficult to conclude whether the above is the *only* report re the protagonists.

I don't / won't watch enough Tee Vee to gauge whether any mention of these matters ever gets thru the car-crash, Corporate newsfotainment filters - but you will notice above, the calibre of 'rebuttal': "He's a liar" yada yada. (From the Weakly.. Standard. Is that the best the SF Chron could find?)

Will be watching to see where this goes / if Ritter survives much longer? / if Cheney, Rumsfeld et al resign [before Cheney is indicted for something]. Watching to see how much more long-term damage to the US' credibility in the world, shall occur between now and

A) the end of this Admin's term OR
B) its impeachment




Ashton
Suddenly it's September 1939
New Re: Texas 1846 - Australia 2xxx - the glory, the defeat
What I want to say here is a statement.

It comes from someone who loves Texas and as an Australian sees both places interwoven in history and intent even though Texas has a much more warlike history.

In 1990 I did what in my eyes all Americans should do - visited the Alamo, was overawed by the simplicity but reverential power of that place. Moslems are supposed to pay a once in a lifetime pilgrimage to Mecca - Americans *should* pay a once in a lifetime pilgrimage to San Antonio.

Why???
- Moslems know why they do it!.
- To understand what is precious in the US and what is important to both life & liberty. The Alamo does it so much more effectively than any pilgrimage to Philadelphia to see the liberty bell, or to Washington's Lincoln memorial. The Alamo in its simple reconstruction brings home to the real American (and some of us non Americans who feel the significance) what at first were a brave 145 then with reinforcements the famous 189 who achieved great worldwide glory knowing that the outcome for them was to be death but no dishonour.

I as a non-American, can easily today cry for what those men fought for and what they achieved posthumoustly for the concepts that they so clearly saw of of liberty, feedom and integrity. They backed Travis & Bowie knowing they would be put to the sword by Santa Ana's men. But they so believed in what they were fighting for.

But from that great sacrifice we move to a Texan who has his nose up the backside of warmongers who are intent on fermenting war for reasons only they completely understand.Bush junior may well enjoy a high level of popularity - that is partly because so few Americans realise the extent to which they are being misled. Bush jnr may well one day be impeached, on the other hand he may just get away with it.


Doug Marker

#2 - toned this post down a lot as on refelection as I can't really claim that I know what is best for the US or the world, am afterall, just an observer. Bush & his advisors may well be grappling with complex issues to do with our long term survival and may have insights we don't (just wish I could see them). The fact that even his father appears to be trying to counter the war talk tells me that others are also concerned about this admin's tactics. Have posted another sep post in one of the threads following this one that attempts to offer a rationalisation as to why Bush wants control of Iraq. Am still 100% convinced that they will find a pretext & invade. The argument here is the untruths being told in order to justify the ends.

Expand Edited by dmarker2 Sept. 15, 2002, 08:43:30 AM EDT
Expand Edited by dmarker2 Sept. 15, 2002, 10:24:18 AM EDT
Expand Edited by dmarker2 Sept. 16, 2002, 05:29:06 AM EDT
Expand Edited by dmarker2 Sept. 16, 2002, 05:34:07 AM EDT
     Intriguing: Ritter just called Butler a liar on CNN - (dmarker2) - (24)
         Doug, how much is being paid to ritter and by who :-) -NT - (boxley) - (18)
             When did he stop beating his wife?__:( -NT - (Ashton) - (5)
                 Right after he cashed his 400k iraqi check :) -NT - (boxley) - (4)
                     Hyperbole or ya got an affidavit? - (Ashton) - (3)
                         I have no opinions on his character, either. - (Brandioch) - (2)
                             excuse me! almost accusing him of what! - (boxley) - (1)
                                 Is Iraq an enemy of the US? - (Brandioch)
             Re: Box - I prefer to deal with what is observed - (dmarker2) - (10)
                 links and proofs - (boxley) - (9)
                     Re: links and proofs - what proofs - (dmarker2) - (3)
                         Okay Doug - (boxley) - (2)
                             Re: Nup - (dmarker2) - (1)
                                 fair enough - (boxley)
                     A reversal of opinion + a Lot of innuendo - (Ashton) - (4)
                         $400K not enough to sell out? - (rsf) - (3)
                             Re: Hansen was a spy Ritter is a loyalist - (dmarker2) - (2)
                                 Re: Hansen was a spy Ritter is a loyalist - (wharris2)
                                 I imply no such thing - (rsf)
             How he makes his money. - (a6l6e6x)
         my apologies to Doug and personally to Scott Ritter - (boxley) - (4)
             Re: Bill - no worries mate - takes ... - (dmarker2)
             Re: I found this article which accurately states his case - (dmarker2) - (2)
                 SF Chronicle take - (Ashton) - (1)
                     Re: Texas 1846 - Australia 2xxx - the glory, the defeat - (dmarker2)

The mind boggles.
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