Re: Utter, utter, utter, utter, utter, UTTER freaking

Post #51,062 by deSitter 9/8/02 9:35:35 PM Reply	Re: Utter, utter, utter, utter, utter, UTTER freaking And BTW, how can anything be more native than MS' own tool, particularly when only they know the whole API? Of course, we did have a chance during the antitrust time to make'em cough up the APIs, but most people thought that was not a good idea. -drl
Post #51,077 by Andrew Grygus 9/9/02 1:07:49 AM 9/9/02 1:11:10 AM Reply	Ease of use . . . . is Microsoft's chain and slave collar. They know full well from experience, if they can be just a little easier, only a few will resist. The Linux guys simply don't get it - they think "superior technology" matters and "quality code" is important, but that stuff only matters to them - to the unwashed, "ease of use" and "tight integration" are meaningful. The price of freedom is, unfortunately, eternal hassle - but that's what separates the men from the boys, the quick from the zombies Yes, it's just a tool, but so are you. The craftsman is beholden to his tools, for he can exploit them fully, but he cannot transcend them. So, yeah, give my regards to Billy, and give me your P.O. and I'll send you a tube of KY Jelly to enhance "ease of use" and "tight integration". [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx] Edited by Andrew Grygus Sept. 9, 2002, 01:11:10 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #51,089 by deSitter 9/9/02 10:56:27 AM Reply	Heh No thanks, I take it dry. I would love to resist, but with what? The antitrust laws were just shown to be a joke, Linux is NOT improving, hardware support is lagging. And where is IBM? It would have been possible to add realsitic threading to Linux (done according to some standard and realizable plan), issue real development tools to support it, and then open up/port WS as a user interface. None of which happened. KDE is pretty and almost as usable as Windows, but beneath the hood it is even more complex and bloated and lacks continuity from release to release. So like Chief Joseph, who had nothing left to fight with, I will fight no more forever. I have retirement to think about. -drl
Post #51,127 by bepatient 9/9/02 2:14:54 PM Reply	I've found... ...that for most tasks, Linux is quite comparable. Don't know about KDE since I don't use it. Have only minor hardware issues with Linux...usually just to tweak something to get it to work a bit better (sound on a laptop..works great and an winmodem on a laptop...also works great now).. I don't mind Win2k either...but I'm not going to run it on a P2-266...while linux doesn't seem to mind it at all. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #51,136 by deSitter 9/9/02 4:50:38 PM Reply	Right On older hardware, Linux can shine. I was vastly disappointed by it's refusal to work properly with my P4. -drl
Post #51,140 by bepatient 9/9/02 5:34:47 PM Reply	That could be one of the issues... ...since I have no P4 You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #51,152 by orion 9/9/02 7:33:25 PM Reply	Could very well be that Jimmy, as Linux needs to be fiddled with to get some hardware to work properly with it. I imagine the Linux Disucssion groups have something on working around P4 issues if Desitter looked hard enough. *[link\|http://games.speakeasy.net/data/files/khan.jpg\|"Khan!!!" -Kirk]*
Post #51,180 by deSitter 9/10/02 6:08:37 AM Reply	Missed Point It's not my job to surf the net looking for the obscure cause of my keyboard lockup problem. It's the job of SuSE to give me my $80 worth and publish a working distribution. I also noticed that a large number of warnings, some of them of the annoying, embarrassing geeky kind, come out of the kernel compile now. This is at best bad taste, and at worst, a sloppy disregard of good development practice. Something has happened to kernel development that is destabilizing things - and I'm not interested what. I'm not a beta tester. SuSE 7.2 was great - but in the process of upgrading things, I ended up with SuSE 7.2 + 7.3i, some imaginary in-between state that was unmigratable. It is mainly for this reason that I became disenchanted with Linux, as I had put a lot of work into my old install. The hardware problem with the brand new install of SuSE 8 was confirmation that Linux development is getting as flake-filled as Windows used to be, as things are rushed out the door. -drl
Post #51,201 by bepatient 9/10/02 10:48:58 AM Reply	Re: Missed Point And what would be the solution for the Win2k flakiness on my work machine. Fresh install and both the internal and external USB cdroms have issues with software installation. Yesterday the internal wouldn't read a brand new photoshop disk...so downstairs to a shared drive and install across the network. The drives both operated flawlessly in Win98. Add to that the XP security issue announced recently...allowing files to be deleted simply by checking email. You seem to be trading choice for "ease of use"...and doing so based upon only >one< choice. Suse versus Windows. How about RH, Mandrake, Debian...or any other of the various distributions. Its only a matter of time before the Windows environment will >also< force you to newsgroups for answers and make you feel like a beta tester. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #51,204 by deSitter 9/10/02 11:05:25 AM Reply	Re: Missed Point Windows isn't easy to use! No OS I know of is easy to use. OS/2 I think was easiest to use after you got used to how the WPS worked. This no doubt is because the object metaphor was consistently applied. I've been amazingly lucky with Windows stability - because I don't really install a lot of peripheral stuff, and I never install untried stuff. I haven't had a significant hardware issue of any kind on Windows 98 or 2000. XP - avoid like plague. I don't even think of that as Windows. As for tech support, MS has improved its online support tremendously in recent years, I think - then again I don't have many "headscratchers" plaguing me, so it may be a personal illusion. I'm not suddenly a Windows convert or MS apologist - I know it's a security mess but at least the underlying structure of 2k is well-enough established by now that there is a well-defined way to make "proper" software on it, if you're careful. What I would dearly love to see is a reincarnation of WPS on a trimmed-out and threaded Linux, rearranged into a sensible structure, with bulletproof system control. -drl
Post #51,250 by imric 9/10/02 3:48:02 PM Reply	Amen, brother! What I would dearly love to see is a reincarnation of WPS on a trimmed-out and threaded Linux, rearranged into a sensible structure, with bulletproof system control. I simply do not understand why IBM doesn't do this. I've heard conjecture that it's 'licensing issues', but know of no actual evidence that this is the case. Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #51,292 by bepatient 9/10/02 8:20:44 PM Reply	You've hit it. WPS on Linux. To sleep...perchance to dream.... You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #51,217 by admin 9/10/02 11:56:17 AM Reply	Amusingly... SuSE installed flawlessly and runs great on this dual P4 here -- 3D hardware acceleration and everything. Every OS has its problems with hardware detect -- they're just different with every incarnation. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #51,242 by deSitter 9/10/02 2:42:04 PM Reply	Re: Amusingly... I think it's something to do with SpeedStep (this is a mobile P4) but can't say for certain. Everything else works fine, other than the winmodem. This is not the usual kind of attackable hardware problem. There are no errors to report - nice happy boot, but when you get there, no keyboard as often as not. You can still telnet in and shut it down, but that's obviously no solution. -drl
Post #51,244 by admin 9/10/02 2:44:09 PM Reply	The point is: I've seen the same sort of thing often enough under Windows. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #51,261 by kmself 9/10/02 4:14:48 PM Reply	Speedstep Disable it in the BIOS. I had same on a PIII, it was being triggered by a flakey power supply (physical attachment was a solder joint to the mobo, which is a different gripe). Repeated, short-cycle toggling of speedstep status would lock the box hard. Speedstep's a mistake. Turn it off. -- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] [link\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/\|[link\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand? [link\|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/\|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever. Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead. [link\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html\|[link\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html\|http://www.eff.org/...a_alert.html]]
Post #51,264 by deSitter 9/10/02 4:21:23 PM Reply	Re: Speedstep I did everything possible in BIOS including turning off all power management of any kind (not that you can wield a laptop in that state in any case). I'm still shocked to encounter something as basic as a keyboard problem at this late stage. There is some hope in that this is a very new machine and the BIOS could get updated. I'm not entirely giving up on it. Just really really peeved. -drl
Post #51,839 by orion 9/15/02 8:01:29 PM Reply	Did you contact SuSE? With that $80 you should have gotten phone support. With that phone support they should have been able to talk you through it. Otherwise, ask for your money back, and then download a different Linux distro, or heck even try out a BSD Unix or even Apple Darwin. *[link\|http://games.speakeasy.net/data/files/khan.jpg\|"Khan!!!" -Kirk]*

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