Re: Glad you don't care what I think

Post #50,740 by deSitter 9/5/02 11:07:46 PM Reply	Re: Glad you don't care what I think Well, I see that as an honest mistake honestly - Adobe's software products are all centered around document creation and display, not security. One of their gods must have felt up to the challenge of cryptography, or more likely they simply trusted some startup to provide good security algorithms. I see this issue mainly as one of privacy - because the principle is that codes have legitimate purposes as security boundaries, and deliberate attempts to break and exploit them is a bad thing. Why privacy? Because one day you should have to right to own your codes and be secure with them, and the penalties for theft/circumvention of these should be harsh. I also see this as a fundamentally different issue than software piracy. This is about protection of rights of publication. In any case, the charges were dropped against the individual. He's fat and happy back in Russia. Geez criminy, there is a mountain of injustice to Americans falsely imprisoned that could use you attention. This is peanuts in comparison. I do care what you think and you damn well know it. And I don't see you as a Linux communist anyway. -drl
Post #50,809 by folkert 9/6/02 9:45:42 AM Reply	You rang??? I do care what you think and you damn well know it. And I don't see you as a Linux communist anyway. That... probably being a close resemblance... ;) I like Adobe's stuff too... They're UNIX based distiller KILLS the Windows one on the SAME hardware... does about 400 times more work in the same amount of time... only biggey is it's cost.. but then the windows one is costly too... `greg - Grand-Master Artist in IT, curley95@attbi.com -- [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!] Your friendly Homeland Security Officer reminds: Hold Thumbprint to Screen for 5 seconds, we'll take the imprint, or Just continue to type on your keyboard, and we'll just sample your DNA.`
Post #50,811 by deSitter 9/6/02 9:55:18 AM Reply	Re: You rang??? Natch, better I/O. Yes, UNIX is nice and good and I love it. But I feel less kinship for Linux than I did previously. Programming it is thankless. Still no up to date C++ environment. Your just a nerd, not a Linux communist. -drl
Post #50,877 by CRConrad 9/6/02 5:01:40 PM Reply	Re: You're wrong Da Sitter: [Linux] Still no up to date C++ environment. Try [link\|http://www.borland.com/products/downloads/download_kylix.html\|this]. Christian R. Conrad Microsoft is a true reflection of Bill Gates' personality - the sleaziest, most unethical, ugliest little rat's ass the world has seen unto this time. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=42971\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #50,909 by deSitter 9/6/02 9:49:03 PM Reply	Re: You're wrong Sorry, C, much as I hate to admit it, Borland is lost and really has been since Access killed Paradox for Windows. The latter was an extremely far-sighted product that was light-years ahead of its time. I think they got just got tired after that. This new ThinkPad I have doesn't have any Borland tools on it - the very first regular PC I've had that I can say that about. So I'm not even interested. I am really shocked that there is no shippable C++ environment for Windows that is crossable. At least the Windows C++ people admit that it's also somewhat shady. (Of course, one can ask - does anyone know what C++ really is? I think I do, and it doesn't really involve anything more than perfecting C.) The software business is all wreckage. The OSes at least are now suitable for 1990. -drl
Post #50,972 by CRConrad 9/7/02 11:00:25 AM Reply	Sorry, but now you're REALLY wrong! De Sitting Bull again: Sorry, C, much as I hate to admit it, Borland is lost and really has been since Access killed Paradox for Windows. The latter was an extremely far-sighted product that was light-years ahead of its time. I think they got just got tired after that. They made a lot of stuff that people loved them for... And, though it may come as a shock to you, many of us DON'T GIVE A DAMN about Paradox, be it for Windows or not -- it's the OTHER stuff we care about. This new ThinkPad I have doesn't have any Borland tools on it - the very first regular PC I've had that I can say that about. So I'm not even interested. OK, so you lost interest in them -- and that's somehow supposed to prove that they ran out of gas?!? Sorry, but I'd say it seems like just what it is: You lost interest in them -- if there's any "fault" there, it's more on your side than theirs. I am really shocked that there is no shippable C++ environment for Windows that is crossable. If this means what I think it means -- and WTF is "crossable" supposed to mean, if not "cross-platform"??? -- then this is where you're REALLY wrong. [link\|http://borland.com/products/downloads/download_cbuilder.html\|Here's] the Windows version of that Linux link. At least the Windows C++ people admit that it's also somewhat shady. (Of course, one can ask - does anyone know what C++ really is? I think I do, and it doesn't really involve anything more than perfecting C.) What exactly is "Windows C++", in your parlance??? Are we to assume that "Windows C++" is nothing more and nothing less than M$ "Visual" [Ha!] C++...? The software business is all wreckage. The OSes at least are now suitable for 1990. Yeah, yeah, apres moi le deluge... Haven't we heard that one too often before (including a few times from you)? Christian R. Conrad Microsoft is a true reflection of Bill Gates' personality - the sleaziest, most unethical, ugliest little rat's ass the world has seen unto this time. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=42971\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #50,977 by deSitter 9/7/02 11:22:29 AM Reply	Don't Make It Worse You think I don't miss them? -drl
Post #50,981 by orion 9/7/02 12:05:51 PM Reply	Best C++ for Windows I think you need to look at [link\|http://www.cygwin.com\|Cygwin] it is basically a Reverse-WINE for Windows, it runs Unix POSIX programs, and has all the GNU Stuff in it, including GCC. Download the setup.exe and enjoy a Unix-like environment that runs under Windows without requiring a reboot to run the Unix stuff. You can compile almost anything that a Unix system can on it. Some things that might be seen as problems: #1 Red Hat owns it, and you are a SuSE man. #2 Red Hat's license is so that if you use it for anything other than open source projects, you have to get a license from them. #3 The PHBs might not like the fact that a Unix environment is running under Windows. They think that Unix is evil. Borland C++ 5.X is free, just log into the [link\|http://community.borland.com\|Borland Community] website and register an account with them for free. You can even [link\|http://community.borland.com/museum/\|download those old DOS languages] like Turbo C++ 1.01, etc. Note that Borland C++ Builder, etc, are not free. Just the core of the language of Borland C++ (The Compiler) is free, and not the IDE, etc. [link\|http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/\|DJGPP] is a DOS based C++ compiler. I am not sure if they did a Windows port yet. I doubt it. [link\|http://www.mingw.org/\|MingW] is a Windows port of the GCC compiler. [link\|http://www.openwatcom.org/download/download_licenses.html\|Open Watcom] is yet another C++ compiler for Windows. They even have a FORTRAN compiler that you might like. [link\|http://www.bloodshed.net/devcpp.html\|DEV C++] will provide that free IDE interface for WingW, DJGPP, and others. *[link\|http://games.speakeasy.net/data/files/khan.jpg\|"Khan!!!" -Kirk]*
Post #50,986 by ChrisR 9/7/02 3:55:01 PM Reply	Minor correction MingW is not a compiler per se - just a set of header files and libraries to bridge the gap between gcc and the Windows libraries (specifically MSVCRT).
Post #51,000 by deSitter 9/7/02 9:01:03 PM Reply	Gimme Some Credit I've done all those things. There is no point to it. Hell, I've even done emx on OS/2. These toys are worthless. gcc is a super command-line C compiler for UNIX, and that's where it ends. Anyway, my experimentation is headed in the Smalltalk direction. I want a valid C++ environment for my low-level work with numerics and my astronomy work. I don't care if it's politically incorrect - at least VS is native to Windows. As for programming UNIX, that's so balled up that I've sort of let it be. No more time for that. Can you tell I'm bitter about it? UNIX is a huge mess as a personal OS, even moreso than Windows. Since Windows 2000 is basically stable and standard protocol friendly, that's my OS of choice now. -drl
Post #51,010 by boxley 9/7/02 9:52:54 PM Reply	Is unix meant to be a personal OS no its a tool for doing work WinOS is a tool for doing work. If the work you want to do makes more sense on Win2K (not bad a lot better than nt4 almost as good as nt3.5) what ever floats yer boat. Me Im a CLI kind of guy and MS$ keeps stripping more and more from the CLI so I am loathe to use them. Nix, notNix, and OSX is what I like..... at the moment. And if anyone digs up your old posts where only linux is usable, ignore them :) thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/Resume.html\|skill set] [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/index.html\|boxley's home page] qui mori didicit servire dedidicit
Post #51,015 by folkert 9/7/02 10:55:11 PM Reply	NOW... NOW... Let's not bring up those OLD bones there. I absolutely abhore M$ products as much or more than ANYONE here... (I believe)... But, when it comes to getting work done, I'll use what YOU brung... So that means I can use nearly anything you got... in an emergency. I also carry around KNOPPIX v3.1(08282002EN), current updates for RedHat 7.0, 7.2, 7.3 and a CD full of needed software for just such emergencies... it has openSSH as source, static binaries for *BSD, Linux, OSX 10.2, PuTTY for Winders, Lynx, Links, curl, wget, drivers for winders for my three kinds of PCMCIA NICs I carry, Cellular/v.90 Modem drivers... plus a bunch of other junk too.. Plus a few other CDs for my enjoyment. Plus 2 piece screw drivers and keys. All carried in a nice little CD case with a M$ product XBOX logo upon it... ;) `greg - Grand-Master Artist in IT, curley95@attbi.com -- [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!] Your friendly Homeland Security Officer reminds: Hold Thumbprint to Screen for 5 seconds, we'll take the imprint, or Just continue to type on your keyboard, and we'll just sample your DNA.`
Post #51,038 by deSitter 9/8/02 10:32:19 AM Reply	Well I keep waiting for Linux to improve, but instead is destabilizes, loses hardware ground, and bloats up at Argentine inflationary rates. SuSE 8, for reasons that are not worth determining, locks my keyboard on about every 5th boot. The latest KDE makes Windows look svelte. Multimedia performance is still horrible. The entire root weevil culture now repels me. What I find funny about all this - the programmers of this disorganized world just blasted MS continuously and loudly, and end up producing stuff that is about as stable as Windows 3.1. SuSE 8 was really a turning point for me. Improving Linux amounts to adding eye candy. -drl
Post #51,040 by pwhysall 9/8/02 12:30:37 PM Reply	Utter Bollocks. But, Ross doesn't hear what Ross doesn't wanna hear. You've made your mind up, and there'll be no changing it. This post is just here to diffray the "big lie" theory. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #51,060 by deSitter 9/8/02 9:26:59 PM Reply	Re: Utter Bollocks. I gave it a fair chance. I've spent more money on Linux than all other OSes combined. It's UNIX, and it's the same thing it was 15-20 years ago, only with 30,000 files. -drl
Post #51,083 by pwhysall 9/9/02 10:21:09 AM Reply	Righty ho. Whatever. It's clear that I cannot transmit to Planet Ross, therefore this conversation is over. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #51,042 by orion 9/8/02 1:59:32 PM Reply	Linux is improving I am not sure what you got, but it must have been a development version, or you have bad hardware. I don't see this with Linux. The only problems that I have had have been configuration issues with X-Windows btching at me about missing a fixed width font or missing a screen. I think my monitor may not have the right driver for Linux or something, it is after all just a cheapie 17 inch monitor that I picked up from Circuit City with no brand name associated with it. But the CLI part boots up fine, no lockups, Red Hat 7.3 I am using here. The only issue I have with the CLI is that I cannot get the network to work, again either a driver, hardware, or configuration issue, not a design flaw in the OS. The main issue that I see with Linux, is that it does not run the Microsoft Bloatware Crap that the MS IT Shops want to run. No Back Office, IIS, MS SQL Server, MS Exchange Server, no MS Office, and none of the business apps that are DOS or Windows only stuff and Linux has no native port of it yet. [link\|http://www.winehq.org\|WINE helps] but it is more of a band-aid and most MS IT Shops want something that runs native to the OS, and not some API converter. Anyway the Linux developers need to get on the ball and make something that does the same thing as MS BackOffice, and make native Linux apps that deal with Business, Accounting, CRM, ERP, etc issues. [link\|http://games.speakeasy.net/data/files/khan.jpg\|"Khan!!!" -Kirk]*
Post #51,064 by deSitter 9/8/02 9:40:01 PM Reply	Re: Linux is improving Sorry, you misunderstood. Linux can't deal with the mobile P4 I have. It installs fine, but doesn't work. And I really don't care why not. -drl
Post #51,161 by orion 9/9/02 8:41:45 PM Reply	One word for you, a very powerful one at that. It will blow your mind, and show you how Linux is supposed to be. That word is [link\|http://www.knoppix.org/\|Knoppix] and it should work for most modern hardware, etc. Can you give it a try? *[link\|http://games.speakeasy.net/data/files/khan.jpg\|"Khan!!!" -Kirk]*
Post #51,050 by CRConrad 9/8/02 4:31:23 PM Reply	Utter, utter, utter, utter, utter, UTTER freaking Bollocks. The WHINING continues: I don't care if it's politically incorrect - at least VS is native to Windows. Borland C++ is, if anything, MORE "native" to Windows than that bloody Microsoft abomination! Its roots go back to fucking TURBO PASCAL -- back when all Microsoft had to offer was GW-BASIC, a bloody INTERPRETER. But yeah, I guess endless reams of ATX-MACRO-BLAH-BLAH are so much more "native to Windows"... Sheesh! As for programming UNIX, that's so balled up that I've sort of let it be. No more time for that. Yeah, sure -- whenever the relation between Ross and something-whatever-X doesn't work, the fault's gotta be with the something-whatever-X... Couldn't POSSIBLY be with Ross, could it? Oh, NOOOO... Despite the fact that precisely its programmability is what a whole world-wide community of Open Source hackers prefers it over Microsoft. Guess they must all be wrong... Hey, if their collective opinion differs from that of The Great Ross, then obviously they must be wrong! Do you work hard at being such a fuckwit, or does it come naturally to you? Can you tell I'm bitter about it? A better question would be, "Can you tell I'm bitter?", period. To quote someone who seems to have caught on before I did: But, Ross doesn't hear what Ross doesn't wanna hear. You've made your mind up, and there'll be no changing it. Go on, be a fuckwit and cloak it in a mantle of "politically incorrect" martyrdom... See if that makes you any more RIGHT. Oops, I forgot: Obviously, nobody could be any more right than you already are! Ah, dang it, I'll leave you to unscrew that conundrum for yourself -- I really can't be bothered to care any more. Christian R. Conrad Microsoft is a true reflection of Bill Gates' personality - the sleaziest, most unethical, ugliest little rat's ass the world has seen unto this time. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=42971\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #51,061 by deSitter 9/8/02 9:34:15 PM Reply	Re: Utter, utter, utter, utter, utter, UTTER freaking The point for me is - it's just a tool, and as long as it runs well, I really don't care any more what it is. I cared once, but spent too much time worrying about side issues. (Wow mabye I should get a Mac). -drl
Post #51,070 by boxley 9/8/02 10:19:33 PM Reply	exactamente its a tool not a fscking religion!!!!! will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/Resume.html\|skill set] [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/index.html\|boxley's home page] qui mori didicit servire dedidicit
Post #51,062 by deSitter 9/8/02 9:35:35 PM Reply	Re: Utter, utter, utter, utter, utter, UTTER freaking And BTW, how can anything be more native than MS' own tool, particularly when only they know the whole API? Of course, we did have a chance during the antitrust time to make'em cough up the APIs, but most people thought that was not a good idea. -drl
Post #51,077 by Andrew Grygus 9/9/02 1:07:49 AM 9/9/02 1:11:10 AM Reply	Ease of use . . . . is Microsoft's chain and slave collar. They know full well from experience, if they can be just a little easier, only a few will resist. The Linux guys simply don't get it - they think "superior technology" matters and "quality code" is important, but that stuff only matters to them - to the unwashed, "ease of use" and "tight integration" are meaningful. The price of freedom is, unfortunately, eternal hassle - but that's what separates the men from the boys, the quick from the zombies Yes, it's just a tool, but so are you. The craftsman is beholden to his tools, for he can exploit them fully, but he cannot transcend them. So, yeah, give my regards to Billy, and give me your P.O. and I'll send you a tube of KY Jelly to enhance "ease of use" and "tight integration". [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx] Edited by Andrew Grygus Sept. 9, 2002, 01:11:10 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #51,089 by deSitter 9/9/02 10:56:27 AM Reply	Heh No thanks, I take it dry. I would love to resist, but with what? The antitrust laws were just shown to be a joke, Linux is NOT improving, hardware support is lagging. And where is IBM? It would have been possible to add realsitic threading to Linux (done according to some standard and realizable plan), issue real development tools to support it, and then open up/port WS as a user interface. None of which happened. KDE is pretty and almost as usable as Windows, but beneath the hood it is even more complex and bloated and lacks continuity from release to release. So like Chief Joseph, who had nothing left to fight with, I will fight no more forever. I have retirement to think about. -drl
Post #51,127 by bepatient 9/9/02 2:14:54 PM Reply	I've found... ...that for most tasks, Linux is quite comparable. Don't know about KDE since I don't use it. Have only minor hardware issues with Linux...usually just to tweak something to get it to work a bit better (sound on a laptop..works great and an winmodem on a laptop...also works great now).. I don't mind Win2k either...but I'm not going to run it on a P2-266...while linux doesn't seem to mind it at all. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #51,136 by deSitter 9/9/02 4:50:38 PM Reply	Right On older hardware, Linux can shine. I was vastly disappointed by it's refusal to work properly with my P4. -drl
Post #51,140 by bepatient 9/9/02 5:34:47 PM Reply	That could be one of the issues... ...since I have no P4 You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #51,152 by orion 9/9/02 7:33:25 PM Reply	Could very well be that Jimmy, as Linux needs to be fiddled with to get some hardware to work properly with it. I imagine the Linux Disucssion groups have something on working around P4 issues if Desitter looked hard enough. *[link\|http://games.speakeasy.net/data/files/khan.jpg\|"Khan!!!" -Kirk]*
Post #51,180 by deSitter 9/10/02 6:08:37 AM Reply	Missed Point It's not my job to surf the net looking for the obscure cause of my keyboard lockup problem. It's the job of SuSE to give me my $80 worth and publish a working distribution. I also noticed that a large number of warnings, some of them of the annoying, embarrassing geeky kind, come out of the kernel compile now. This is at best bad taste, and at worst, a sloppy disregard of good development practice. Something has happened to kernel development that is destabilizing things - and I'm not interested what. I'm not a beta tester. SuSE 7.2 was great - but in the process of upgrading things, I ended up with SuSE 7.2 + 7.3i, some imaginary in-between state that was unmigratable. It is mainly for this reason that I became disenchanted with Linux, as I had put a lot of work into my old install. The hardware problem with the brand new install of SuSE 8 was confirmation that Linux development is getting as flake-filled as Windows used to be, as things are rushed out the door. -drl
Post #51,201 by bepatient 9/10/02 10:48:58 AM Reply	Re: Missed Point And what would be the solution for the Win2k flakiness on my work machine. Fresh install and both the internal and external USB cdroms have issues with software installation. Yesterday the internal wouldn't read a brand new photoshop disk...so downstairs to a shared drive and install across the network. The drives both operated flawlessly in Win98. Add to that the XP security issue announced recently...allowing files to be deleted simply by checking email. You seem to be trading choice for "ease of use"...and doing so based upon only >one< choice. Suse versus Windows. How about RH, Mandrake, Debian...or any other of the various distributions. Its only a matter of time before the Windows environment will >also< force you to newsgroups for answers and make you feel like a beta tester. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #51,204 by deSitter 9/10/02 11:05:25 AM Reply	Re: Missed Point Windows isn't easy to use! No OS I know of is easy to use. OS/2 I think was easiest to use after you got used to how the WPS worked. This no doubt is because the object metaphor was consistently applied. I've been amazingly lucky with Windows stability - because I don't really install a lot of peripheral stuff, and I never install untried stuff. I haven't had a significant hardware issue of any kind on Windows 98 or 2000. XP - avoid like plague. I don't even think of that as Windows. As for tech support, MS has improved its online support tremendously in recent years, I think - then again I don't have many "headscratchers" plaguing me, so it may be a personal illusion. I'm not suddenly a Windows convert or MS apologist - I know it's a security mess but at least the underlying structure of 2k is well-enough established by now that there is a well-defined way to make "proper" software on it, if you're careful. What I would dearly love to see is a reincarnation of WPS on a trimmed-out and threaded Linux, rearranged into a sensible structure, with bulletproof system control. -drl
Post #51,250 by imric 9/10/02 3:48:02 PM Reply	Amen, brother! What I would dearly love to see is a reincarnation of WPS on a trimmed-out and threaded Linux, rearranged into a sensible structure, with bulletproof system control. I simply do not understand why IBM doesn't do this. I've heard conjecture that it's 'licensing issues', but know of no actual evidence that this is the case. Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #51,292 by bepatient 9/10/02 8:20:44 PM Reply	You've hit it. WPS on Linux. To sleep...perchance to dream.... You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #51,217 by admin 9/10/02 11:56:17 AM Reply	Amusingly... SuSE installed flawlessly and runs great on this dual P4 here -- 3D hardware acceleration and everything. Every OS has its problems with hardware detect -- they're just different with every incarnation. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #51,242 by deSitter 9/10/02 2:42:04 PM Reply	Re: Amusingly... I think it's something to do with SpeedStep (this is a mobile P4) but can't say for certain. Everything else works fine, other than the winmodem. This is not the usual kind of attackable hardware problem. There are no errors to report - nice happy boot, but when you get there, no keyboard as often as not. You can still telnet in and shut it down, but that's obviously no solution. -drl
Post #51,244 by admin 9/10/02 2:44:09 PM Reply	The point is: I've seen the same sort of thing often enough under Windows. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #51,261 by kmself 9/10/02 4:14:48 PM Reply	Speedstep Disable it in the BIOS. I had same on a PIII, it was being triggered by a flakey power supply (physical attachment was a solder joint to the mobo, which is a different gripe). Repeated, short-cycle toggling of speedstep status would lock the box hard. Speedstep's a mistake. Turn it off. -- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] [link\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/\|[link\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand? [link\|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/\|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever. Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead. [link\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html\|[link\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html\|http://www.eff.org/...a_alert.html]]
Post #51,264 by deSitter 9/10/02 4:21:23 PM Reply	Re: Speedstep I did everything possible in BIOS including turning off all power management of any kind (not that you can wield a laptop in that state in any case). I'm still shocked to encounter something as basic as a keyboard problem at this late stage. There is some hope in that this is a very new machine and the BIOS could get updated. I'm not entirely giving up on it. Just really really peeved. -drl
Post #51,839 by orion 9/15/02 8:01:29 PM Reply	Did you contact SuSE? With that $80 you should have gotten phone support. With that phone support they should have been able to talk you through it. Otherwise, ask for your money back, and then download a different Linux distro, or heck even try out a BSD Unix or even Apple Darwin. *[link\|http://games.speakeasy.net/data/files/khan.jpg\|"Khan!!!" -Kirk]*
Post #51,151 by orion 9/9/02 7:30:44 PM Reply	Nevermind the Bollocks. When Borland had C for DOS, there was a Microsoft C, a Microsoft Quick C, Microsoft Assembler (Anyone remember MASM?), and other languages (Microsoft FORTRAN, etc). But Borland had a better marketing stragedy, Borland offered those Educational discounts (I remember picking up Borland Turbo Pascal 3.01 for $35 back in college) that MS didn't, etc. The MS did a catch up, offered VC++, in Windows, and was able to compete with Borland C++ enough to take away a large marketshare from them. Desitter is falling into the same deal that many IT Managers fall into, setting up Linux takes a long time, some hardware doesn't exactly work right with it, and it can be made to work, but they don't have the time to do so. Which makes them go back to Microsoft and their easier to use and install server software. *[link\|http://games.speakeasy.net/data/files/khan.jpg\|"Khan!!!" -Kirk]*
Post #51,178 by CRConrad 9/10/02 3:06:52 AM Reply	Bollocks, by your own words: By then, as you say... ...Turbo Pascal was on version THREE! (And they didn't change major-version numbers every year back then, either, AFAICR.) Christian R. Conrad Microsoft is a true reflection of Bill Gates' personality - the sleaziest, most unethical, ugliest little rat's ass the world has seen unto this time. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=42971\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #51,841 by orion 9/15/02 8:10:02 PM Reply	What does version numbers have to do with anything? I am talking about features, functionality, price, user base, etc. Face it, even back then Microsoft had some DOS based languages. Not the same as the Turbo Series, but Microsoft had then before Borland was founded, IIRC. Remember Microsoft FORTRAN, COBOL, Assembler, BASIC, and C? They had those frigging things before DOS was born. Heck, some of them existed before CP/M, like Microsoft BASIC, which worked on the Altair 8800 (Or whatever Billy Boy called his BASIC language way back when). Then they made FORTRAN, COBOL, Assembler, C, etc. Then XENIX, then some company, oh you may have heard about them, named IBM (Business is their middle name) who saw that Apple and others had done quite well in the Microcomputer area, so they wanted a piece of it as well. DRi the makers of CP/M, had what iBm wanted, but wouldn't give it to IBM, so Billy and company got asked to supply one. So they bought out a CP/M clone named Q-DOS (Quick DOS, 86-DOS, whatever?) and then IBM PC-DOS, MS DOS etc was born. If DRI sold to IBM, we'd be running CP/M 20.2.34 now on GEM 13.7.864, also known as CGEM/2 7.0 after DRI and IBM combined the two. :) But then Billy and company would be working at Taco Stands and Quickie Marts. :) *[link\|http://games.speakeasy.net/data/files/khan.jpg\|"Khan!!!" -Kirk]*
Post #51,181 by deSitter 9/10/02 6:12:26 AM Reply	Incorrect I don't like being goosed by MS any more than I used to. But, there aren't any viable alternatives. I really wish OS/2 was still living. I'm not "going back to Microsoft". I'm distancing myself from Linux, which is going the way of all Utopian schemes. As for Borland, they have always made the best development tools, but it's no longer of any consequence to make things better. -drl
Post #51,260 by imric 9/10/02 4:14:48 PM 9/10/02 4:16:02 PM Reply	Gotta disagree, there. I'm distancing myself from Linux, which is going the way of all Utopian schemes. I've seen little but improvement in Linux since I started using it myself. I have it running both servers and desktops, and it works great, and has installed on every PC I have - including laptops, OEM machines, and Frankensteined nightmares... In general it's been reliable, useful, and fast. That doesn't mean I would support the replacement of ALL Windows (or OS/400, or 'true' Unix systems or anything else) boxes with it - MY utopia involves a heterogenous environment where different boxes can run different OSes (and application software) to perform the various tasks they can do best (additionally, at the lowest cost - which doesn't necessarily mean price). Homogenity gives no advantage over one's competitors; it's the goal of the vendor - not the goal of business. Maybe a 'world-beater scheme' (with Linux running Windows-like percentages of the world's computers) might not fly, but that doesn't mean that Linux isn't widely useful, or that it won't be widely used. It certainly doesn't mean that Linux is going to be relegated to history any time soon. Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win. Edited by imric Sept. 10, 2002, 04:16:02 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #51,049 by CRConrad 9/8/02 4:10:35 PM Reply	I'm not - YOU are "making it worse", yourself! Rosscoe just Sitts there and asks: You think I don't miss them? But, DAMMIT, can't you see what I'm saying -- that there's nothing TO miss?!? That's what I'm tellin' ya, man: They're STILL THERE! If you won't see that, it's all YOUR OWN FAULT for being WILFULLY blind. Christian R. Conrad Microsoft is a true reflection of Bill Gates' personality - the sleaziest, most unethical, ugliest little rat's ass the world has seen unto this time. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=42971\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #50,841 by ben_tilly 9/6/02 1:07:56 PM Reply	Technically you are right I am too much of a capitalist pig to be a good communist. However we are at opposite ends of the spectrum on copyright. My firm belief is that the pendulum has swung far too much in favour of copyright robber barons. And - like happened with the robber barons in the 1800's - I think that trade as a whole would benefit from our reminding them forcibly that what they have right to is no more than a temporary grant from the public, and not ownership of anything solid. For more on why lowering transaction costs is a good thing in a slightly different area, I am very fond of Andrew Odlyzko's [link\|http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/issue6_2/odlyzko/\|Content is Not King]. And yes, I do believe that information networks have a lot in common with more concretely physical ones. Cheers, Ben Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. -- Edsger Wybe Dijkstra (1930-2002)
Post #50,872 by a6l6e6x 9/6/02 4:02:02 PM Reply	So you will be glad to read: [link\|http://www.theregus.com/content/6/26213.html\|Anonymous $1m grant to test copyright laws.] But, you probably knew that. I agree on that the pendulum. Copyright laws were supposed to be a compromise between IP protection and "fair use". Alex "Resort is had to ridicule when reason is against us." -- Thomas Jefferson
Post #50,875 by ben_tilly 9/6/02 4:40:07 PM Reply	Yes, I did like that A sample figure to show how out of balance it is. Page 31 (labelled page 19) of [link\|http://eon.law.harvard.edu/openlaw/eldredvashcroft/supct/amici/libraries.pdf\|this brief] has the fascinating figure that tracking down copyrights on works from the 30's averages about 12 hours per work. And that estimate is low because the search is only undertaken in practice when there is good reason to believe that it will be relatively easy! When transaction costs just for figuring out who has a bloody claim exceed by orders of magnitude any estimated dollar value for that claim, enforcing property rules has become seriously counter-productive. Cheers, Ben Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. -- Edsger Wybe Dijkstra (1930-2002)

Welcome to IWETHEY!