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New Classifications
I thought the whole system was 'suspect',
since it relies far more on observation
than genetic testing, and that over the
next 'x' years, it would be revamped.
New It seems reliable
Yes, [link|http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/Fossil_Halls/cladistics.html|cladistics] relies far more on observation than genetic testing. But that is because observation is the simplest (and until recently the best) tool we had for studying the underlying evolutionary history.

Given that the evolutionary history is believed to have happened, and the tool is fairly effective, we would expect its conclusions to be generally backed up by any improved tools for analysis. And so it has proven with genetic clocks (the most widely used of which is mitochondrial DNA) generally agreeing with existing conclusions. (There are disagreements on details of course - but then again we never expected all of our best answers to be correct.)

However there always has been and will continue for the forseeable future to be some churn in the classifications. Part of that is the slow correction of historical mistakes. (One wonders when they will officially change the name of homo sapiens. We are a great ape, more closely related to the chimpanzee than either of us is to the gorilla.) But part of it is that the world resists convenient classifications.

What is generally not understood except by scientists - and is utterly rejected by uninformed creationists (sorry Wade, this is accurate) - is that the concept of a species is rather vague. People commonly think that two animals are the same species if and only if they can interbreed and have fertile offspring. With obvious caveats about gender. Yet they then turn around and accept that a Great Dane and a Chihuahua are both dogs despite obvious anatomical difficulties in interbreeding. (Let us not get into the troubles you have when there are other modes of reproduction, as happens with plants and bacteria.)

Before you stop and say that this is an artificial example, tell me what we should do with the [link|http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~lindsay/creation/ring_species.html|herring gull]. That isn't human interference. There are two species in England. Without the rest of the ring we would think there nothing interesting about that. But we have a complete living chain between these two species. Somewhere between them we have to decide what we are calling different subspecies, and species. But any such division is necessarily an artificial human imposition.

A similar situation exists with languages. It is obvious that French and Italian are different languages, and both are different from Latin. But both once were Latin. At what point do you say that the languages separated? At what point do you say that they stopped being Latin? Was there a moment where at one point people spoke Latin and the next French? Was there a moment where France and Italy were joined by a common language and then were divided? Of course not!

So the problem is this. We may agree that the existence of evening does not mean that day is the same as night. However knowing and agreeing to this does not assist us in agreeing where in the evening to draw the demarcation. And over time biologists will change their minds about what demarcations to draw where and why, and the exact classifications of species and subspecies will remain in flux if for no other reason than that we need to divide the placement of different labels when no clean division exists.

Cheers,
Ben
Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes.
-- Edsger Wybe Dijkstra (1930-2002)
New For what are you apologising?
    What is generally not understood except by scientists - and is utterly rejected by uninformed creationists (sorry Wade, this is accurate) - is that the concept of a species is rather vague.


Um. How shall I put this? You were expecting me to disagree? I already knew this. "uninformed creationists"? I don't recall defending those, though I can imagine you may have thought otherwise. You may remember me refusing to argue with you because I didn't think I knew the topic well enough.

I was intruiged when I first heard about the problems with the way organisms are named (fauna and flora). Especially when it was noted that the original structure was biologically incorrect. But it's convenient because everyone knows it and changing it would be Very Hard.

Wade, who has been implicated in a discussion he was only going to watch.

"Ah. One of the difficult questions."

New For characterizing creationists as uninformed
Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes.
-- Edsger Wybe Dijkstra (1930-2002)
     Shocking: Drivers License info on the web! - (Ashton) - (24)
         You have a strange taste in girlfriends... -NT - (ben_tilly) - (19)
             You didn't look up a name, ____now did you (?)______:-\ufffd -NT - (Ashton) - (18)
                 Re: Nice smile but a bit hairy under the armpits ... - (dmarker2) - (17)
                     Thine vision has been distorted - (Ashton) - (16)
                         Only through lack of opportunity - (ben_tilly) - (15)
                             Yes - but recall that Chimps are the closest apes - to Us. - (Ashton) - (14)
                                 And they tried to sue over that . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                                 Actually genetically not - (ben_tilly) - (12)
                                     OTOH, I think it's only in English that "the bonobo"... - (CRConrad) - (11)
                                         Not only in English - (ben_tilly) - (9)
                                             Classifications - (broomberg) - (3)
                                                 It seems reliable - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                     For what are you apologising? - (static) - (1)
                                                         For characterizing creationists as uninformed -NT - (ben_tilly)
                                             Ah, thanks. Now if only you wouldn't persist in showing me.. - (CRConrad) - (4)
                                                 Umm.... - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                                     Bah - what's a single generation, between friends? ;^) -NT - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                                         I dare you... - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                             Eeeuuuuwww! Yucky! - (CRConrad)
                                         In Thai, it is the Ling. - (orion)
         Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle! -NT - (a6l6e6x)
         I agree with Ben..... -NT - (slugbug)
         Yabut ... How many States do this? - (mmoffitt) - (1)
             ObRobinWilliams - (inthane-chan)

The meat is so under cooked it is starting to eat the salad.
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