Re: Good point

Post #41,241 by dmarker2 6/5/02 6:57:11 AM 6/6/02 1:20:56 AM Reply	Re: Good point Data seems intangible. But it was pretty well accepted that by the 1990s a company's greatest assets (apart from real-estate) was 1) Its data (as held in databases & warehouses) 2) The expertise and knowledge of the staff The data in a modern org covers the information about customers - their accounts (Accounts receivable & payable) - their patterns & interests in the business you do. This data also includes a company's business processes (nearly all automated as 'work-flow' software), etc: etc: Losing this could cripple a company The expertise a company has can also be critical but is increasingly linked to the processes and data held by the company. If someone were able to steal key staff from a company they could criple it Anyway, point above is that data is a valuable asset & because of global trade the world is wealthier - more people have money to spend, borders are dissapearing, & as a consequence, masses of data is being shipped around the world as a consequence. The supply chain managament industry is the one that has the most to gain from XML Web Svcs standards & coincidentaly, that industry also benefitted from containerization of shipping. in effect data is now the next target for an efficiency drive & all participants need to agree, luckily they have. Cheers Doug Marker PS I have to give an exec briefing on this very topic to our management & thus it is very timely. I will make the rsulting preso vailable but it is going to be high level. Some added links ... [link\|http://www.worldtradeclub.net/doc/wtArt081.htm\|Containerization primer] Good in that it hits on all the benefits regarding conatiners, but doesn't touch on the trade & political impacts. [link\|http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/Containerization\|Encyclopedia definition] [link\|http://www.xrefer.com/entry/162655\|Another ref] And finally a quote .... If Internet == the superhighway, Web Surfers = private vehicles Web Services = goods trucks Edited by dmarker2 June 5, 2002, 08:38:01 PM EDT Edited by dmarker2 June 6, 2002, 01:20:56 AM EDT Re: Good point Data seems intangible. But it was pretty well accepted that by the 1990s a company's greatest assets (apart from real-estate) was 1) Its data (as held in databases & warehouses) 2) The expertise and knowledge of the staff The data in a modern org covers the information about customers - their accounts (Accounts receivable & payable) - their patterns & interests in the business you do. This data also includes a company's business processes (nearly all automated as 'work-flow' software), etc: etc: Losing this could cripple a company The expertise a company has can also be critical but is increasingly linked to the processes and data held by the company. If someone were able to steal key staff from a company they could criple it Anyway, point above is that data is a valuable asset & because of global trade the world is wealthier - more people have money to spend, borders are dissapearing, & as a consequence, masses of data is being shipped around the world as a consequence. The supply chain managament industry is the one that has the most to gain from XML Web Svcs standards & coincidentaly, that industry also benefitted from containerization of shipping. in effect data is now the next target for an efficiency drive & all participants need to agree, luckily they have. Cheers Doug Marker PS I have to give an exec briefing on this very topic to our management & thus it is very timely. I will make the rsulting preso vailable but it is going to be high level. Some added links ... Containerization primer Good in that it hits on all the benefits regarding conatiners, but doesn't touch on the trade & political impacts. Encyclopedia definition Another ref Expand All History \| Collapse All History
Post #41,375 by Ashton 6/6/02 3:41:43 AM 6/6/02 4:08:13 AM Reply	Let's follow the analogy a bit further But it was pretty well accepted that by the 1990s a company's greatest assets (apart from real-estate) was 1) Its data (as held in databases & warehouses) 2) The expertise and knowledge of the staff That which is being 'wrapped', transmitted, stored - is the schematic for all the operations which describe the Company - as if it were a logically 'codeable' process. So in principle - if one had the algorithm for each sub-process and the flow-chart for how a company hierarchy delegates tasks (and how the tasks are done): You have now reduced The Company to a (now mapped) process. Remember "expert systems" ? Dunno what buzzword-family has by now morphed from, what I recall as being a nascent example: Aircraft technicians, engineers, specialists were being lost by attrition, aging, etc. and lore was being irretrievably lost. (Think also Electric Boat, as nuke subs phased out, workers sent away. So what about: the next War du Jour? Can't train em up overnight. Can't keep em makin widgets either.) In especially short supply was knowledge of (very approx.) the "mental logic" (actually one had best call it, Reasoning - however ineffable thus undefinable) which led the best of these to be capable of solving difficult, interactive aircraft problems. Solution posited: believe it began with an extensive er debriefing, in ordinary language - call that a narrative. Then the prose was analyzed to see if a flow chart might sufficiently encapsulate the critical decisions as were seen to lead to 'solutions'. More detail I can't dredge up. I do recall a couple other examples (one being re lore about steam locomotives, obviously a now near-death set of logic, arts and crafts.) Point: how to relate this to some other aspects as define (or used to) a 'Company'? Throw in some current social factoids re declining (loyalties? all around) for evident cause -- and I think I see in your effort to examine a working analogy for (mere?) data transmission, something larger in scale or at least scope: To the extent that a Company could (can?) accurately create logical representations of all its operations; then would this not further reduce the valuation placed upon the overall human intelligence [one might rephrase: overall valuation a Company places on "its" humans] ?? I see within a small extrapolation of your metaphor, the coming next Popular Billy-Class logical argument among the more elite-Suited Ones - for the formal reclassification of all non-Elite [natch] personnel as: 1) Expense. (formerly - Asset.) 2) Therefore 'chattel' 3) Which rhymes with ____ (I merely Hope that - such reductionism shall not ever find its way into a revised Peter Principle X - The Armageddon Years, called The Marker Manifesto :( Ashton \ufffd of :-\ufffd (sure you want to share your Model with, ummm the Movers & Shakers?) Corollary definition of The New Company An encapsulated $-multiplying Robot whose efficiency is measured by the extraction of the max possible work for least tolerable conditions, from its human Liabilities - with concomitant reduction of their numbers, asymptotic to a single-digit number, called Owners. may also be called: Another Company or, 'a Hive'. Edited by Missing User 70 June 6, 2002, 04:08:13 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #41,398 by drewk 6/6/02 10:29:19 AM Reply	Related to something I was just saying about OSS & FSF You have now reduced The Company to a (now mapped) process. I believe, as I suspect do you, there are two classes of processes: those that are amenable to automation and those that are not. Increasing technology tends to move processes from the latter class to the former. Automated processes quickly face cost pressure, while pricing of non-automated processes depends on the willingness/ability of the people who can do them. Eg: Before the productrion line, very little was what we would now call "automated". Now, each new generation of automobile factories has greater mechanical automation and less human involvement. The same is true of computers. Each generation of software encapsulates and automates more functions that used to require human intervention. As recently as a few years ago, the ability to install Linux on arbitrary hardware was a premium service, for which consultants could charge premium prices. Now, programs/services like YaST and RedCarpet have automated the process, but the systems are proprietary. The next stage is the replacement of the proprietary automated systems with Free automated systems. Then will come standardization and commoditization. So it seems the progression is: Human expert, custom work, expensive Human craftsman, standardized process, less expensive Proprietary mechanical (computerized) process, costs less than craftsmen per unit work (exception: improved consistency/product quality may enable premium price for product, thus making the process more valuable than craftsmen) Industry-standard (OSS) automated process, vendors compete on price Commoditization, price wars begin in ernest Whoever is making money at a given stage of this process wants to prevent to onset of the next stage. === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #41,472 by Ashton 6/6/02 7:17:13 PM Reply	Those seem to be the stages, but it's the Aim which is ominous - eliminating humans wherever possible. And if the society signs off on this er meta-process, we may have to rethink a;; the ideas of the ilk, "a day's pay for a day's work; he who does not work does not eat; everyone Must have a job or be termed, 'slacker'" .. yada. So far the argument for more automation has devolved to ~~ "oh, we're just taking over the jobs no one wants to do". Should the last 4 words start becoming fainter -- Then: time for a new social contract. (We can skip the Luddite phase if we're smarter than a post (?) OK So I give that: 50/50) Ashton
Post #41,501 by dmarker2 6/7/02 3:25:20 AM Reply	Re: But,but, but That argument has been with us since the steam engine. There was a time when a 'road-gang' went out into the country to build roads & also to repair & where needed re-surface the tarred/concreted ones. Then came the steam engine & steam shovels & steam graders (later gasoline powered). Took over the work & did a way with what was really a low-paid menial task. Did that mean these people lost out - perhaps, but their kids managed to obtain an education that allowed them to take on higher function jobs such as auto mechanics & engineers and designers and architects and tradesmen. Also (I I remember these days) there was a time when we had clerks. Most streets I lived in as a kid had people whoose dads were clerks - filing clerks, booking clerks, ledger clerks, sales clerks, etc: etc: One of my very early jobs (aged 14) was as a ledger clerk in a company that kept county court judgements filed in hand written ledgers and the company would sell credit enquiries on people for two shillings a pop (20cents). A phone call from a registered customer would come in asking for a check on Joe Bloggs, when we weren't scanning the published weekly court records for ledger entries, we would look up the enquiries for the customers. For 5 shilling (50cents) we would provide a written report on the person. Years later (many) I was involved in setting up computer bereaus that did the same thing. So was I disadvantaged because the job of ledger clerk got automated - I hardly think so. All that happens in reality is that menial tasks get automated (computers aren't smart as much as fast). Robots are good at simple repetitive tasks. To take it all to seriously is to misunderstand the needs & forces driving change & also the human spirit that has always been looking for ways to elevate mankind to higher planes of existance & ability. Sure we have lost complete generations of skilled lathe machinists due to the intro of the electronically programmable multi-tooled turret-head lathes of today (I loved working on the older lathes & milling machines - another past career). I have also heard many 'bitch' sessions about how we lost something precious when we lost the ability to operate slide-rules - replaced by Sharp calculators that did away with the detailed disciplined we learned in operating those rules. But evolution of mankind and the environment we create is as certain as what Darwin was able to explain in his theories for the origins of species. But as mentioned elsewhere speculating doomsday scenarios based on what might happen is really only a characteristic pastime of some of us, and in that sense has a value in bringing to attention some paths that need to be trodden down carefully (such as cloning humans). Cheers Doug
Post #41,503 by a6l6e6x 6/7/02 3:39:37 AM 6/7/02 3:45:38 AM Reply	Shall we sing "John Henry"? :-) [link\|http://www.ibiblio.org/jimmy/folkden/Jhenry.mp2\|MP2] song. Alex "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." -- Winston Churchill (1874-1965) Edited by a6l6e6x June 7, 2002, 03:45:38 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #41,504 by Ashton 6/7/02 5:38:21 AM Reply	Yes of course - you can't Not -invent stuff.. C'mon Doug - lumping a criticism of the trends away from democracy into.. something like Luddite behavior of the past, I deem a Red Herring. And please do not resurrect a rubric about change as if: Any change is tantamount to progress. Ergo any resistance to certain changes - must be [see Luddite]. We are adults here. (Sorry you missed the implications of your 'Corporate Schematic' in the larger comedy of ongoing homo-sap master plans :-\ufffd ) All that happens in reality is that menial tasks get automated (computers aren't smart as much as fast). Robots are good at simple repetitive tasks. To take it all to seriously is to misunderstand the needs & forces driving change & also the human spirit that has always been looking for ways to elevate mankind to higher planes of existance & ability. Hah! So then - you see the effects thus far of a massive Corporatizing worldwide as ~~ changes in the direction of elevation of mankind ? Is that what you see, and believe is the direction? Very well, then - at least our differences are clear in that regard - I see nothing like that occurring (except perhaps among a very few, but their direction is not Corporate-inspired - quite orthogonal). You could examine the effect of the trends upon the chances for (growing numbers) to survive ouside of the agglomerating and homogenizing Corporate culture. The growing division into a mere 2-class society (here) works against any democratic social values. Corporate allegiance has little to do with geographic location or country of origin, or do you think otherwise? As 'education' morphs increasingly towards mere 'office job prep skills', we here are losing much more than just lore about "soon-to-be deceased steam locomotives". (Hey we're even missing that option too - much as we trashed our railroad systems. AmTrack today has had to go begging again, to the Congress.) You don't need refined diesel fuel to make use of the Carnot cycle: simply imagine a steam auto via modern techno, perhaps a hybrid concept - as, while the flash boiler is rapidly coming up to full performance. Not even on anyone's drawing board. And that's just one missing development re ongoing energy concerns. But you can make more money next quarter.. with the usual [oil] marketing - that is the corporate mindset always: short-term profits. Yours is different? What have I missed here? Sorry but - if it's your view that the present Corporate trend constitutes some sort of human progress: I'm missing it. As with the HMO (in US - you may have been spared That experience): Last year these were the most profitable Corporations of all - in a country where very expensive medicine is guaranteed via the insurance Corps and other traditional middle-men.. No national health plan yet, of course. YMMV in HK (?) Other rich countries have of course - faced those costs, and opted for a minimal guaranteed service for all. Our plan persists despite efforts to reform. (IMhO) - such efforts would be fiercely opposed / and are / present situation is simply vastly profitable for the many many middle-men between doctors and patients. Corporatization is occurring here in other areas once deemed a (local or higher) government responsibility: prisons for profit, for one. In CA (larger than most nations): prisons be #1 growth industry: ~ #s off top of head - in a given period 17 new prisons; one new school. Guards receive better pay than profs in small colleges. (Of course all these phenomena are interrelated with the Corporate effects. Nothing can be really isolated, except in textbooks - with lots of graphs.) Schools here may end up similarly; argument continues re the allowing of Tee Vee ads in schools: camel's nose is in that tent - but the natives are restless. Can't tell if restless enough. Anyway, my point isn't just about the planned obsolescence of humans within Corporations [as a side goal, that is] - but about the overall homogenizing of human activity into the tawdry aims of The Office. And in the end and personally, after all the usual Econ graphology - I see Corporatization as guaranteeing the most boring human era yet. Perhaps this phenom alone: could be the single largest contributor to worldwide creeping dumbth {??} We are seeing mega-Corps usurping governments, not just the US one. Whatever this might mean - it is not about any allegiance to societal concerns in any country of operations; it is about the wealth of the directing class. What Else is a Corporation formed to do? I infer that you like your Corp experience thus far (?) I OTOH shall continue to despise the effects I see all around me: a world looking more and more like a Colossal McDonalds, serviced by drones and serving up pabulum. (And a few very rich folks trying to keep the trend going. 'Course they do need a few lieutenants, and many are willing to make that trade-off.) I say that we are building a Hive - and it will be quite efficient, but it won't be made to accommodate most humans. So your quote above - is about diametrically opposite my observations locally, and my extrapolations from 'here'. Maybe you work for a quite different kind - hope so. Hey - maybe some of Yours could take over some of Ours! then ... .. Cheers, Ashton PS - if I need to add (?) since we are an elite band hereabouts: I'm not speaking for myself re the "techno changes" but re the vast majority of people who can't grok the simplest principles of how stuff works - increasingly. That gap won't get 'better' for an increasing % of the entire population, especially if education does not soon reverse course (in at least This country). But I do know how things work - in the end 'things' work via physics rules. People do not. Ordinary people have to live in some "here" also. And we may not require that they learn to compile Linux kernels next - to eat. (Dunno if daily spreadsheets are a 'better way' to spend time than say, shoveling cow manure? - but that's another thread) If we are going to morph towards a world wherein 'menial tasks' are given the connotation implicit in your 'history': that implies also that it shall continue to be acceptable that persons unable to grok techno - may be paid below base-level subsistence, and be left well out of contention for - participation in this so-called 'advancing consciousness'. Bad plan that, IMO. And I think that 'bad plan' IS the plan I see in progress. A.
Post #41,510 by dmarker2 6/7/02 7:55:34 AM Reply	Re: Yes of course - you can't Not -invent stuff.. YA GOT ME (grin) "you see the effects thus far of a massive Corporatizing worldwide as" Where did I talk about or say anything like the above ??? - I thought I was talking about 'Evolution of the pieces' (appologies to Darwin :-) Cheers Doug
Post #41,512 by CRConrad 6/7/02 8:29:03 AM Reply	Well, then you don't know what you're talking about. The subject was the effect of cultural "evolution", where recent history -- technological progress since ~the beginning of the Industrial Revolution -- has had on the life of Joe Sixpack, "socio-economically" (to wit, to reduce him more and more to a mechanical cog, increasingly redundant). Your apparent Panglossian happy-go-lucky stance, "it's just progress", is not warranted; you haven't presented the least shred of support that it is so... No wonder, though, if you don't even KNOW that that's what you're saying! Christian R. Conrad Of course, who am I to point fingers? I'm in the "Information Technology" business, prima facia evidence that there's bats in the bell tower. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=27764\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #41,515 by dmarker2 6/7/02 8:34:04 AM Reply	Re: Jeeze CRC - that was mild ... Haven't you got your self tanked up enough yet to include that characteristic f* & s** etc: etc: etc: etc: (ad nauseum) Schnapps (or whatever) can be so eloquent ! (to some). Cheers Doug :-) PS is it summer or winter there now ?
Post #41,519 by CRConrad 6/7/02 9:36:16 AM Reply	Stone cold sober; at work. Summer. Was going to write more, but... it is supposed to be work, after all. Hoped you'd be able to read all I wanted to say into it -- hoped in vain, it appears? OK, I'll try to get back to ya during the weekend. No wonder; I see I missed whole words, in my hurry -- please read an "effect" into that Joe Sixpack sentence somewhere! :-) Christian R. Conrad Of course, who am I to point fingers? I'm in the "Information Technology" business, prima facia evidence that there's bats in the bell tower. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=27764\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #41,522 by dmarker2 6/7/02 10:00:14 AM Reply	Re: Please accept my public apology for implying otherwise. I accept your word without quibble. I did realise it was summer - was being cheeky about what you guys get up to in winter. I am concerned that an 'innocent' thread on an obvious technology issue & evolution (XML & Web Services) was being hijacked to thrash out personal grievances against corporations (which I would argue don't belong in this thread). What I thought this was about was what XML and Web Services - what they actually and really mean & how these are likely to affect us in the careers we are in. Dragging outside issues into the thread and implying I am a corporate appologist is a distraction from a real world issue many of us are grappling with in regard to understanding the real impact of XML and Web Services, in a real world (the one that pays salaries & keeps us from starvation). Next wed I am to address a variety of execs in our 'Corp' on just what XML & Web Services are & what impact they are likely to have on our business. I was asked to do this because for the past 18 months I have been warning various parts of the company that a 'significant' change was going to occur in what IT means to our business & the way we are likley to build & design software in the future. I don't see anything insidious in this. I am just gald they have listened & want to hear a professional perspective. What they choose to do with the info & about the concept is up their imaginations & courage. Anyway, I don't want to buy into issues to do with corporations. I am happy to let nature & evolution deal with them as will happen. Cheers Doug
Post #41,528 by dmarker2 6/7/02 10:39:18 AM Reply	Re: Carnot Cycle ... here is an example of a good one Robert Stirling ... [link\|http://www.stirlingengine.com/faq/one?scope=public&faq_id=1\|Stirling Engines] "Q: Are Stirling engines really the most efficient engines possible? A: In the mid 1800's a very bright Frenchman named Sadi Carnot figured out the maximum efficiency possible with any heat engine. It is a formula like this (Temperature of the hot side - Temperature of the cold side)/Temp of hot side x 100 equals the max theoretical efficiency. Of course the temperatures must be measured in degrees Kelvin or Rankine. Stirling engines (with perfect regeneration) match this cycle. Real Stirling engines can reach 50 percent of the maximum theoretical value. That is an incredibly high percentage! " In the 1970s Ford built a Stirling engined motor car that was approx 30% more efficient on milage than a gasoline engine & unlike steam engines, would never explode like a bomb. But 30% was not enough to change from conventional engines. "Here is a picture of a 1979 AMC Spirit. It was equipped with an experimental Stirling engine powerplant called the "P-40". The Spirit was capable of burning gasoline, diesel, or gasohol. The P-40 Stirling engine promised less pollution, 30% better mileage, and the same level of performance as the car's standard internal combustion engine. " I have several models of these (accquired in the past 12 months from the US). They are fascinating conversation pieces. Cheers Doug
Post #41,599 by Ashton 6/7/02 6:35:04 PM Reply	We had one on the roof! at LBL. Then, a couple of years ago, I helped a friend (working at NASA - not a scientist) assemble some material on the topic. I haven't pursued enough to be entitled to an opinion re practicalities like... obscure alloy economics, tolerances - esp. tolerance of daily Joe Sixpack abuse of the "why do I Need to change the oil??' type. Amazing though - presuming merely an honest 30% in the mentioned AMC test bed. But do you find it surprising that it wasn't enough to interest a (any) Corp in further pursuit? As to your comment re the relevance of all this Other Stuff, to your IMO excellent XML analogy - guilty as charged. Still, the extrapolation fairly leaped to mind. (This mind). And I do realize that, in a meeting to relate present IT strategy to what seems to be coming down the pike: One obviously can't subpoena the CIEIO to explain his parachute, or why it is that - the rate of Temp hiring has increased exponentially, and the temps are engaging in Gladiatorial combat during their two 8-minute coffee breaks per shift, and ... Yes, we live in a Complete World\ufffd - only off or ex-work. This I have recognized. (And acted accordingly.) :-\ufffd Ashton Digressions R'Us LLC What Does It All Mean, Alfie ??
Post #171,019 by shimon340 8/26/04 7:07:14 AM Reply	Re: Carnot Cycle ... here is an example of a good one Hi dmarker 2, I'm very interested in these SMC spirits with the P-40 sterling engine. Do you have any further information on these engines or these cars? look forward to hearing from you Shimon shimon@volvo340.com posted by dmarker "Robert Stirling ... Stirling Engines [*] "Q: Are Stirling engines really the most efficient engines possible? A: In the mid 1800's a very bright Frenchman named Sadi Carnot figured out the maximum efficiency possible with any heat engine. It is a formula like this (Temperature of the hot side - Temperature of the cold side)/Temp of hot side x 100 equals the max theoretical efficiency. Of course the temperatures must be measured in degrees Kelvin or Rankine. Stirling engines (with perfect regeneration) match this cycle. Real Stirling engines can reach 50 percent of the maximum theoretical value. That is an incredibly high percentage! " In the 1970s Ford built a Stirling engined motor car that was approx 30% more efficient on milage than a gasoline engine & unlike steam engines, would never explode like a bomb. But 30% was not enough to change from conventional engines. "Here is a picture of a 1979 AMC Spirit. It was equipped with an experimental Stirling engine powerplant called the "P-40". The Spirit was capable of burning gasoline, diesel, or gasohol. The P-40 Stirling engine promised less pollution, 30% better mileage, and the same level of performance as the car's standard internal combustion engine. " I have several models of these (accquired in the past 12 months from the US). They are fascinating conversation pieces. Cheers Doug" shimon@volvo340.com
Post #41,678 by tonytib 6/8/02 8:58:42 PM Reply	Hey Doug, Toolmakers, Machinists, lathes are STILL here After all, my company has two machinists, four knee type vertical mills (real Bridgeports), a lathe, and other assorted manual machining equipment. I'm sure employment is way down from the peak, but there's still substantial manual machining going on, mainly, I suspect, for prototyping. For making a couple pieces, a manual machine is just as fast (CNC machines take time to setup, and CNC programmers aren't cheap either). However, for any reasonable volume, we farm our work out to machine shops, and they typically use CNC machines. And, of course, for small volumes, most other techniques (castings, powder forming, extrusion, etc) aren't even close to cost effective due to their high setup costs, and lack of precision. Full size industrial-quality manual lathes and mills are still being sold by Bridgeport, Jet, and many more, although they're typically made in either Taiwan or China. A nice new Taiwanese one (with DRO and more) is around $8 - $10,000, whereas CNC's start at $40K. Tony
Post #41,681 by dmarker2 6/8/02 9:55:41 PM 6/8/02 9:57:54 PM Reply	Re: A funny story re Lathes & precision finishing I am sure there are still a lot of machine shops around, I suspect no where near what there was per capita in the 1940-50s (mostly war effort) But one story I was told by a guy in california who made a hobby lathe years back, called the Taig Micro Lathe which was for the hobby market. I was fascinated with how he built these things - the small base (a flat bed) was made from a hollow aluminium extrusion & filled with a special concrete mix that gave them the needed rigitiy. But on to his story ... He had formerly (in the early 1970s, run a machine shop producing precision components for the govt for use in missiles. The tolerances were incredibly tight & the polished finish was a critical part of the job. In his small machine shop he had a reputation for producing polshed surfaces that defied the statistics & the govt kept sending teams to look at why his shop was consistently better at the job that the larger and important volume producers. He had one big lathe that was supposed to be used for the finishing off. It was specially approved by the govt for the job & he would not get contracts if he didn't have that required machine. But what he could never tell them was that he and his staff actually did the finishing off on an older unapproved (& never likely to be) lathe out the back & that their perfect finishes were achieved by using cigar ash as the finishing compound. I really enjoy that story as a kind of 'John Henry' up yer nose at 'officialdom' when it comes to machinery. The fact that he never told the govt is a nice twist to the story. Cheers - Doug Marker Edited by dmarker2 June 8, 2002, 09:57:25 PM EDT Edited by dmarker2 June 8, 2002, 09:57:54 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #41,683 by Andrew Grygus 6/8/02 10:46:11 PM Reply	I had a sort of opposite problem In the Aircraft industry, landing gear hinge pins are considered to be rather critical parts (for some reason). For a particular pin, I read the specification up and down and sideways and wrote a detailed manufacturing plan for inside manufacturing steps and exactly which outside vendors would be used for certain steps we were not equipped for. Every time I had a batch ready to go, the Menasco source inspector tried to reject them because "they didn't look like the parts everyone else was making". That's because ours were the only ones made to spec. Everyone else had to kiss grind after shot peen to hold tolerance. This is a very big no no. Shot peen needs to be the last step before hard chrome, because any touch of grinding negates the positive effects of the shot peen. But my parts "looked different", so every time we had some to ship we had to call in his supervisor to buy them off. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #41,688 by dmarker2 6/8/02 11:20:46 PM 6/9/02 12:03:11 AM Reply	Re: I had a sort of opposite problem That is interesting - 'They don't look right" so don't want em. Sheesh Am interested as to what the 'shot peen' process involved. Am guessing that peen means 'hitting' & shot implies using ball bearings to do the hitting ? am also guessing that this was a hardening process after machining. Cheers Doug UPDATE#1 LOOKED IT UP ON THE WEB ... Shot Peen Forming [link\|http://www.curtisswright.com/segments/metal_treatment/shot_peen_forming.asp\|Shot Peen forming] Peen forming is a dieless forming process performed at room temperature. During the process, the surface of the workpiece is impacted upon by small, round steel shot. Every piece of shot impacting the surface acts as a tiny peening hammer, producing elastic stretching of the upper surface and local plastic deformation that manifest itself as a residual compressive stress. The surface force of the residual compressive stress combined with the stretching causing the material to develop a compound, convex curvature on the peened side. Parts formed by peen forming exhibit increased resistance to flexural bending fatigue. Another distinct advantage with peen forming, unlike most other forming methods, it that all surface stresses generated are of a compressive nature. Edited by dmarker2 June 9, 2002, 12:03:11 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #41,696 by Andrew Grygus 6/9/02 12:47:31 AM 6/9/02 12:58:20 AM Reply	Only the last sentence is relative Shot peening of (very hard and not at all formable) critical structural parts is done with very tiny steel shot at high velocity. The objective is to create those compressive stresses on the surface, similar to the stresses induced in tempered glass. Grinding after shot peen tends to relieve these beneficial stresses through removal of material and heat, and introduces microscopic cracks and unwanted grinding stresses. Properly, there should be a heat cycle after grinding operations to remove the stresses produced by that process, but any such heat cycle would also remove the beneficial stresses from shot peening. On the other hand, shot peening can be used to relieve grinding stresses if a heat cycle is not possible due to metalergical (temper) requirements. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx] Edited by Andrew Grygus June 9, 2002, 12:58:20 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #41,710 by tonytib 6/9/02 3:33:29 AM Reply	Taig is still around, but in Arizona They are still making tabletop lathes and mills, at [link\|http://www.taigtools.com/\|Taig Tools] A CNC version is available at [link\|http://www.microproto.com/\|Micro Proto] for around $2,000. [link\|http://www.sherline.com/\|Sherline] is probably the best known hobbyist lathe and mill company. Sherline does have some advantages, such as the availability of DROs and continuous speed motors. CNC conversions are available from other suppliers, and are, IIRC, over $2,000 for a complete system. Similar (bigger but less precise) tools are available from China, e.g. Grizzly ( [link\|http://www.aerocom.ws/bedair/Grizzly.html\|here is one Grizzly web page] ), Harbor Freight, etc. For dedicated CNC use, I'm most impressed with [link\|http://www.maxnc.com/\|Max NC], also in Arizona. Their models aren't much more than Taig or Sherline, but are available with servo motors, for example. The manual table top mills seem to be roughly $500 - $1,000 (DRO is more), with CNC models at $2-3,000. A used full size manual mill would typically be $3-5,000, but has many problems for home use (3 phase power, often 480V, a weight of about 2,000 lbs, etc). I don't have any experience with these, but a friend who has used the Sherline says it's hard to do precision (meaning 0.001" or better) work with it, and that the real thing (Bridgeport) is much better. Tony Who is slowly learning the Pro/Desktop free computer aided solid modeling program (and it's pretty good for a free program -- and no, I ain't going to become a ME -- but I might buy a table top mill or CNC machine)
Post #41,479 by dmarker2 6/6/02 9:02:12 PM 6/7/02 12:21:14 AM Reply	Re: Where you are leading may evolve, but is to complex for me to follow. I like to tell the story of the world before the automobile. When people had an affinity for horses & boats. A good man would often form a frienship with his horse, esp when survival was part of the equation. If the people of the horse transport era were told they would have to switch to what we have to day, I have no doubt that most would be shocked horrified and aghast. 'I ain't gonna ride in a box that has no horse to pull it', 'I ain't gonna ride in a contraption that uses flamable fuel to move it'. 'Are you seriously telling us you want us to go around in contraptions that kill more people in a year than we might lose in a year of a major war?'. Anyway, automotive transport changed the world - we live with it. Many don't particularly like the side effects but our kids take fast cars in their stride (am one of those whose early days was with horses & trains & trams - only a few people we knew owned a car or a truck - roads then where we lived were mostly dirt & all this was within 75 miles of a major international city (town back then). Also 'telly fones' - there were people from an earlier era who could not accept talking to someone they couldn't see & who would never do business with just a voice from a black box. But as we all know, the world has adapted. Now we have personal communicators & these are soon to have digital video added. Re data & Web Services. It really is a straight forward progression, no less complex that the act of moving from mechanical accounting machines (once worked on them) to electronic compters (which only became common in business in the late 1960s to 1970s), and personal computers (1980s), and networked computing 1990s culminating in the Internet, so the progression is networked computing based on services and open data exchange standards. This last phase would not happen without something like XML & the emerging services standards and concepts. You may be worrying too much abouut where it is heading - lets take it step at a time in a logical progression & not get too far ahead of ourselves. Cheers Doug Edited by dmarker2 June 7, 2002, 12:21:14 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #41,506 by Ashton 6/7/02 6:28:55 AM Reply	ie 'change is inevitable" Of course it is. Those who want to 'conserve the status quo' - have never succeeded. But we know calculus: and d(dx/dt) describes not change but acceleration. It is as mindless to accept that: Anything which Might be done next is OK - as the reverse. I do see where 'encapsulated communications' Might lead, at least I believe I see +s AND -s. Don't you? We could try anticipating both, not just hoping for the +s. Because every choice works like that. I don't 'predict' the asymptote mentiond - but I know too many people who would not have missed its obvious presence in the 'possibilities' - to imagine I'm the first to see it there! (Or the last) Change is now occurring at evidently in-human speed, driven largest of all by dreams of personal profit by a very small % of the tenants.(well into obscene levels - if it can be gotten away with. No Limit to greed, experienced as obsession). At the very least: such tawdry motivation deprives 'us all' of more viable options: that's the cost I see as simplest to notice. As a planet - we have no plan for what to do with multitudes of persons following their own growth curve -- who won't understand the above shorthand. These need to have valid work for a sane existence. Just like us smart (and fortunate = lucky) ones are able to scrounge up - so far... Why? - 'cause they won't just stand around watching the Chosen Ones drive into their gated enclaves.. after a certain critical mass of dissension occurs. Sorry again but.. "there there, this is just normal er 'progress'" - is a proposition I oppose entirely. Not much is 'normal' about the just-ended Century of Wars.. and this opening of the next, with the national and international rules of the last, (all overlaid with ancient and some deadly superstitions too) ie we aren't required to be stupid, next. Y'know? Ashton (Hey... I watched the beginning of the 'nuc. industry' from scratch - remember, "electricity too cheap to bother metering" ? ETC. And I was interested in the details, so I learned them. I have heard Lots of fanciful musings of Insanely-great Ideas - and noted what actually occurred.) I noticed - but I don't 'worry'. That would be silly!
Post #41,514 by dmarker2 6/7/02 8:31:52 AM 6/7/02 8:41:42 AM Reply	Re: ie 'change is inevitable" "driven largest of all by dreams of personal profit by a very small % of the tenants." When did personkind's greed (or any other downside characteristic) change for the worse ? - I would argue that these characteristics have remained essentially static for the past 40,000 years (at least) but that because the human population has grown so dramatically, & personkind has discovered some secrets of the universe + how to manipulate bits of it, plus add to this our self awareness and our intellectual knowledge, and this may well amplify perceptions of everything we do in today's world (when in fact the only real change has been the world's population & perceptions). Semms to me that we today, be we Lawyers or prostitutes (very well matched), Priests or Sinners (usually both as far as Priests are concened :-), Businessmen or consumers, Congressmen or the masses, etc: etc: - that we have changed little over the era of cro-magnon man. It is only our exploitation of our environment that seems to have changed and that is directly related to population growth and indirectly related to our growing self-awareness (as some ancients say - we alone in Eden ate the big apple from the tree of knowledge). I get the impression that you have an issue with corporate world. I don't - they are an evolutionary species, - that could be because I spend most of my life in quieter backwaters than you are subject to (but Napa must be very pleasant?). I see corporations as little more than darwinian evolution & in the longer term they may not survive but then again they may be what they are because they are survival in an overpopulated world. Corporation vs nation state. But what the f*** has this got to do with a piddling evolutionary advance in the use of computers, that we are calling XML & Web Services ? Theirin lies my confusion with your directions :-) Cheers Doug Edited by dmarker2 June 7, 2002, 08:41:42 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #41,520 by drewk 6/7/02 9:38:28 AM Reply	Therein is the big issue IMO As a planet - we have no plan for what to do with multitudes of persons following their own growth curve -- who won't understand the above shorthand. These need to have valid work for a sane existence. I don't view the progression I outlined as the steps of turning humans into cogs in the machine, but to completely removing humans from the machine. If something can be automated, do you really want to do it over and over again? Do you want to work on an assembly line? Problem is, there are probably more people in the world who would be satisfied with that than not. What do they do for a living once we've replaced them with faster, more-consistent machines? A great quote I heard but can't locate, went something like this: We engage in warfare, so that our sons can engage in politics and construction, so that their sons can engage in music and art. Sounds great, but the insight Aldous Huxley had is that the weak link in building a Utopia isn't eliminating the things people don't want to do, it's finding something for people to make a living at. === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #41,600 by Ashton 6/7/02 6:47:20 PM Reply	Yes - it seems to be that last.. Which is confounding even the appearance of anything like "planning-for". Hell, I'll admit that - in some moods, an hour or two of utterly repetitive simple tasks can be positively salubrious! Actually 'thinking to some huge Purpose' surely is the hardest work homo-sap ever (a few of them) manages to do. Most of us are aliens to such prowess anyway.. So yes, nice one! Replacing all the regular tasks with HALinux-XP, can only exacerbate the problem of ~8 billions here, or as LBJ said.. Don't spit in the soup Everybody's got to eat Ashton Properly translated, I think Will S. would have liked some of LBJ's homilies :-\ufffd
Post #41,689 by dmarker2 6/8/02 11:21:29 PM Reply	Re: Ashton, have created a new thread in open ... Have pre loaded it with enough fuel for a big blast :-) It should be a good opportunity to question the ethics and directions of the changes that XML & Web Services are expected to bring. Cheers - Doug
Post #41,770 by Ashton 6/9/02 8:06:15 PM Reply	Beyond call of duty :-) Mine should have been tagged OT No quibbles with your presentation of what seems a trend which has reached critical (thinking) mass. Apologies for interrupting a promising thread in its correct forum. I just tend to think in the direction that - such new models as putatively devaluate the (need for) individual knowledge of workers: is that Stimulus which ever shall evoke Response - For the truly-PHB, that Response is as inevitable as ... the next ad. People = Costs :: Cut Both. Trend is looking awful for that vast majority (in any field) who are merely 'average' - since already we read here signs of the commoditization. Always Room at the Top of course, and we each believe we are Top, yet -- (So it still sounds as if these developments will be ~= worsening the overall IT/Business (and especially Bizness!) "relationship". :( Regards, Ashton
Post #41,897 by mmoffitt 6/11/02 12:08:55 AM Reply	Indeed. such new models as putatively devaluate the (need for) individual knowledge of workers:... When my daughters ask me what I miss most about "the good old days" when I was young, I always say, "In those days, we had artisans. Unfortunately, I have lived long enough to see their demise."
Post #41,912 by Ashton 6/11/02 4:09:02 AM Reply	Tip of iceberg? First - they are still around - these days it seems: making superb one-offs (of lots of things) for the Yuppie class. (I guess that overlaps upper-Middle and Elite?). As with $200 dinners by $1M chefs. But overall, of course there are fewer and fewer. I notice this particularly re home work (not homework!). Many can sort-of install electrical fixtures for ex., but have none of the basic comprehension of Ohm's law, a bit of AC and DC principles. Some little thing is amiss: they can't even R&R sometimes. Surely couldn't create a "switch diagram" to make some small alteration. [These not needed, allowed in my house BTW] 'Specialization' - most obvious in the MD Trade, but becoming apparent more and more as businesses morph into 'bizness' - means that fewer have anything like a liberal education and act accordingly dull -while pretending 'chipper'? Allopathic MDs, with rare exception - have no idea about the many other approaches to 'health' worldwide, and often do not grok what it means to boast, "We Treat Symptoms!" Maybe a similar 'allopathy' occurs with 'consultant specialists' in bizness: they are being called in because: none of the present local Elite plans to stay very long, just want a parachute - and know pretty little about the intricacies of that overall business! (How Else explain: M$ hegemony ??) Anyway.. I don't see how 'we' can overcome the lead-time problem for training competent people - without some rilly Bad times coming. Those BTW will be the times when your 'maturity' shall take on a new cachet: "hey This guy grew up when they were still really Teaching stuff! Heh - he can even spel. And multiply without a calculator!!" Ashton
Post #41,392 by drewk 6/6/02 9:55:24 AM Reply	Amazing thing I heard about containers My in-laws went to New Jersey recently to visit friends and go sight-seeing in Manhattan. While driving past one of the docks, they saw acres upon acres of containers sitting in neat rows. Their hosts told them they were already-empty boxes from China. They were sitting waiting to be recycled. Apparently, it is cheaper to just build new boxes in China than to wait for an empty ship to be reloaded with empties for the trip home. === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #41,394 by CRConrad 6/6/02 10:01:08 AM Reply	Sending empties? Buy less shit from there, or sell more!

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