Post #396,829
12/3/14 4:10:13 PM
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Okay, I'll play.
The choice was not Single Payer or PPACA in 2010 Damned right. And whose fault was that? Barack Obama's. Corporate Crime Reporter March 3, 2009
President Obama’s White House made crystal clear this week: a Canadian-style, Medicare-for-all, single payer health insurance system is off the table.
Obama doesn’t even want to discuss it.
Take the case of Congressman John Conyers (D-Michigan).
Conyers is the leading advocate for single payer health insurance in Congress.
Last week, Conyers attended a Congressional Black Caucus meeting with President Obama at the White House.
During the meeting, Congressman Conyers, sponsor of the single payer bill in the House (HR 676), asked President Obama for an invite to the President’s Marchy 5 health care summit at the White House.
Conyers said he would bring along with him two doctors — Dr. Marcia Angell and Dr. Quentin Young — to represent the majority of physicians in the United States who favor single payer.
Obama would have none of it.
This week, by e-mail, Conyers heard back from the White House — no invite. ... Dr. David Himmelstein is a founder and spokesperson for Physicians for a National Health Program.
Himmelstein’s take — Obama is caving to the insurance industry.
“The President once acknowledged that single payer reform was the best option, but now he’s caving in to corporate healthcare interests and completely shutting out advocates of single payer reform,” Himmelstein said. “The majority of Americans favor single payer, and it’s the most popular reform option among doctors and health economists, but no single payer supporter has been invited to participate in the administration’s health care summit. Meanwhile, he’s appointed as his health reform czar Nancy-Ann DeParle, a woman who has made her living advising health care investors and sits on the board of many for-profit firms that have made billions from Medicare. Her appointment — and the invitation list to the healthcare summit — is a clear signal that the administration plans to propose a corporate-friendly health reform that has no chance of actually solving our health care crisis.”
Obama to single payer advocates: drop dead. http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/march/obama_to_single_paye.phpThink they're biased? How about NPR? Just about every time President Obama holds a town hall meeting, someone asks about the health care plan that's not under consideration.
"Why have they taken single-payer off the plate?" Linda Allison wanted to know during a New Mexico forum in May.
By now, the president has a stock answer for those who want to replace the current system of employer-based health insurance with a single-payer plan in which the government pays all medical bills.
"If I were starting a system from scratch, then I think that the idea of moving towards a single-payer system could very well make sense," Obama said. "That's the kind of system that you have in most industrialized countries around the world. The only problem is that we're not starting from scratch."
Too Disruptive?
Obama argues that shifting to a single-payer system would be too disruptive for the $2.2 trillion health care industry. That view is shared by most of the policymakers now running the health care debate, but not by U.S. Rep. Dennis Kucinich, a Democrat from Ohio.
"We're not starting from scratch," Kucinich said. "We're starting in a ditch. And the ditch is that Americans are being driven into poverty by a health care system that is for-profit."
Kucinich co-sponsored legislation that would expand the government-funded Medicare program to cover all Americans, not just those aged 65 and older. Kucinich made single-payer health care a cornerstone of his own quixotic presidential campaign.
"One out of every three dollars in our current health care system goes for corporate profits, stock options, executive salaries, advertising, marketing, the cost of paperwork," Kucinich said. "If you took the money that's being wasted and put it into a not-for-profit system, you'd suddenly have enough money to cover every American."
Health care experts agree that switching to a single-payer system would sharply reduce administrative costs. But wary lawmakers instead focused on a more incremental approach. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106969104David Sirota's got audio from 2006 he posted when the USSC was considering the turd that is the PPACA that puts the lie to the claim that Obama didn't voluntarily take Single Payer off the table here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=st2pQ1WvXQMMy hat's off to you, Scott. If Gorbachev had apologists as gifted as you, there'd still be a Soviet Union. ;0)
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Post #396,831
12/3/14 5:16:57 PM
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Me too.
http://www.peoplesworld.org/keep-organizing-for-single-payer-health-care-conyers-urges/Conyers said he was not invited to President Obama’s March 5 Health Care Summit until he threatened to go to the president. Earlier, he had been told single-payer was “off the table,” he said. Ultimately, he and other single-payer advocates were included.
Speaking at another event at Thomas Jefferson University here, Conyers said President Obama will not back single-payer health coverage now because he’s got too much on his plate — two wars and an economic crisis — and he has to settle for health care reform he can get, the Philadelphia Inquirer reported.
Conyers told that gathering Obama would push through a public-private reform package — keeping private employer-based insurance and expanding a Medicare-like system — “if he’s lucky.”
Given a choice, people will choose the public plan, Conyers told the town hall meeting. (In a recent New York Times poll, 67 percent favored national, single-payer health care.) But insurance companies don’t want to share — they want to keep their huge profits, he said, so they are pressuring every member of Congress and spending millions to scare the public and keep single-payer “off the table.” http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/08/19/obama-touts-single-payer-system/From August 2008: Barack Obama said he would consider embracing a single-payer health-care system, beloved by liberals, as his plan for broader coverage evolves over time.
“If I were designing a system from scratch, I would probably go ahead with a single-payer system,” Obama told some 1,800 people at a town-hall style meeting on the economy.
A single-payer system would eliminate private insurance companies and put a Medicare-like system into place where the government pays all health-care bills with tax dollars.
Many liberals have long embraced the coverage plan, saying it would cover everyone, take the profit out of health insurance and allow for greater efficiencies. But Republicans cringe at such deep government involvement in the private sector, calling it socialized medicine. And many Democrats, including Obama and former rival Hillary Clinton, have taken a much more moderate approach.
Obama’s health-care plan aims for universal coverage by offering a new government-run marketplace where Americans could buy insurance, mostly from private plans. He would offer subsidies to individuals and to small business owners that offer their workers coverage. His plan also would require that parents get insurance for their kids. And he aims to lower health-care costs to make coverage more affordable. His plan includes one small step toward single payer. His new marketplace would create a new government-run plan, like Medicare, to compete against the private plans.
But Obama repeated that he rejects an immediate shift to a single-payer system. “Given that a lot of people work for insurance companies, a lot of people work for HMOs. You’ve got a whole system of institutions that have been set up,” he said at a roundtable discussion with women Monday morning after a voter asked, “Why not single payer?”
“People don’t have time to wait,” Obama said. “They need relief now. So my attitude is let’s build up the system we got, let’s make it more efficient, we may be over time—as we make the system more efficient and everybody’s covered—decide that there are other ways for us to provide care more effectively.” Seems like he's been consistent in what he wanted and the reasons why. Presidents Lieberman, Snowe, Nelson, etc., wouldn't have let single-payer or even the public option through, as the comments at B-J indicate. YMMV. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #396,849
12/4/14 8:43:02 AM
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Total lack of leadership.
Do you honestly think that TR or LBJ had an easier time of it with the politicians? Single Payer had > 60% support among the public - you know, those people who are supposed to be represented by their elected officials? Obama did not even try because, as my links point out, he was on record as being opposed, if we take him at his word, to displacing 1.5 to 2 million private insurance workers at least as early as 2006. Which is, of course, ridiculous on its face. The federal government right now processes about 50% of all medical claims through a single payer system. If the entire country were on a single payer system, it follows that there'd be more claims to process (not twice as many, because, in this country, the average American spends 80% of their lifetime expenses on medical services in the last two months of their lives. With an average lifespace > 70 years for both sexes, that means that on average, 80% of of Americans' lifetime expenses on medical services are processed through a single payer system already. Putting another lie to the Obama claim that switching to single payer would be "too much of a shock.") At any rate, clearly some of those laborers in the private sector would go to work for the new single payer. Hence, not all private insurance company workers would be displaced. Did you even listen to Sirota's audio? If not, I *highly* recommend it.
I'll grant you he's been a consistent toady for Wall Street, Big Insurance and Big Pharma. That's hardly a complement.
Harkin's right. What we have now is even worse than what we had. The PPACA is a complete disaster. It is nothing more than a HUGE boon to big insurance companies. I'm just getting ready to go to a meeting to listen to how much our insurance premiums are going up. Rumor has it that is 16%. No public option (thank you, Mr. President) means no downward pressure on premiums and a glut of profits for big insurance. Just as the pResident wanted all along. You're right about one thing: there is no arguing the point that he's been a consistent, reliable corporate shill.
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Post #396,854
12/4/14 10:34:25 AM
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Being able to count isn't lack of leadership.
90+% of those surveyed wanted universal background checks after Sandy Hook. 70+% of those surveyed favor raising the minimum wage. Public support isn't what matters in getting legislation through these days - you know this. TR and LBJ had big majorities to work with. You know how the Senate works now. No, I didn't listen to the audio yet. I'll look into it later. The people who are able to get medical care now who couldn't before the PPACA would disagree with you that the system is worse now... (We're not going to change each other's minds. :-) Cheers, Scott.
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Post #396,859
12/4/14 11:31:18 AM
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They went to the people. That's what a real President is supposed to do.
Recognizing that the Elkins Act was not effective, Roosevelt pursued further railroad regulation and undertook one of his greatest domestic reform efforts. The legislation, which became known as the Hepburn Act, proposed enhancing the powers of the Interstate Commerce Commission to include the ability to regulate shipping rates on railroads. One of the main sticking points of the bill was what role the courts would play in reviewing the rates. Conservative senators who opposed the legislation, acting on behalf of the railroad industry, tried to use judicial review to make the ICC essentially powerless. By giving the courts, which were considered friendly to the railroads, the right to rule on individual cases, the ICC had less power to remedy the inequities of the rates.
When Roosevelt encountered this resistance in Congress, he took his case to the people, making a direct appeal on a speaking tour through the West. He succeeded in pressuring the Senate to approve the legislation. The Hepburn Act marked one of the first times a President appealed directly to the people, using the press to help him make his case. The passage of the act was considered a major victory for Roosevelt and highlighted his ability to balance competing interests to achieve his goals.
Square Deal
Roosevelt believed that the government should use its resources to help achieve economic and social justice. When the country faced an anthracite coal shortage in the fall of 1902 because of a strike in Pennsylvania, the President thought he should intervene. As winter approached and heating shortages were imminent, he started to formulate ideas about how he could use the executive office to play a role—even though he did not have any official authority to negotiate an end to the strike. Roosevelt called both the mine owners and the representatives of labor together at the White House. When management refused to negotiate, he hatched a plan to force the two sides to talk: instead of sending federal troops to break the strike and force the miners back to work, TR threatened to use troops to seize the mines and run them as a federal operation. Faced with Roosevelt's plan, the owners and labor unions agreed to submit their cases to a commission and abide by its recommendations. http://millercenter.org/president/roosevelt/essays/biography/4It wasn't all teacakes and sunshine for TR either. The big difference here is that Obama wanted above all to leave the health insurance oligarchs in power. He said so explicitly in the 2006 recording I linked. Consequently, he felt no desire to do the right thing for the people and boy, oh boy, does it ever show in the massive handouts to Big Pharma and Big Insurance that is the PPACA.
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Post #396,862
12/4/14 11:54:27 AM
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If Obama wanted that...
The big difference here is that Obama wanted above all to leave the health insurance oligarchs in power. That's delusional. Nothing would have made the insurance oligarchs happier than to keep the system as it was. Lifetime caps, pre-existing conditions, 10%+ premium increases every year, etc., etc. Why do you think the insurance industry fought so hard to defeat the PPACA? Why would he spend nearly a year and all that political capital if he wanted to help the insurance oligarchs? Frontline: Fall 2009 Democrats take the lead; war with the insurance industry; more deals are cut
Two days before the Senate is to vote on the Finance Committee's bill, America's Health Insurance Plans releases a report (PDF) alleging that health care premiums would increase sharply under the bill. "But the importance of that report and its issuance was not really the substance of the report so much as the decision by the industry to put it out there," explains Washington Post reporter Ceci Connolly. "It was the clearest signal in this long drama that the insurance industry was not going to be on board with any sort of health care reform."
On Oct. 13, the health care bill passes the Senate Finance Committee with the support of only one Republican, Sen. Olympia Snowe of Maine. Following the bill's passage, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) takes back control of the bill -- talk of a public option is back on the table and the individual mandates that the insurance industry had fought for are watered down.
And the following Saturday, the president takes on the insurance industry in his weekly Internet address: "They're flooding Capitol Hill with lobbyists and campaign contributions, and they're funding studies designed to mislead the American people," he says. "It's all smoke and mirrors. It's bogus."
But Karen Ignani and her allies fight back by funneling millions of dollars into a tough ad campaign against the legislation sponsored by the Chamber of Commerce. And the insurance industry's arguments hold sway with a number of key senators. The White House and the Democratic leadership begin cutting deals; they kill the public option, pleasing Sen. Joe Lieberman and others; they lower proposed taxes for medical device makers to win Sen. Evan Bayh's (D-Ind.) support.
The last holdout is Sen. Ben Nelson (D-Neb.), a former insurance industry executive. He agrees to support the bill if he can get a $100 million deal in which the costs of expanding Medicaid in Nebraska would be covered by U.S. taxpayers. Sen. Nelson denies there was a quid pro quo for his vote, saying instead he was opening the door for all states to receive similar Medicaid compensations. But Washington and the media see it differently; the deal becomes known as the "Cornhusker Kickback." Your 2006 Sirota linky (which I still haven't listened to) presumably is similar to this piece (also from 2006): This theme had been reiterated all day: Obama is all about the art of the possible within the system. "This is a classic conflict within the left: Are you a revolutionary or are you a reformist?" Obama said. "I am less concerned with the labels that are placed on me in terms of what kind of leader I am, and I am more interested in results.... I think within the institutional structures we have, we can significantly improve the life chances of ordinary Americans." I asked him to give me some specific examples of what he meant. Is a proposal to convert America's healthcare system to one in which the government is the single payer for all services revolutionary or reformist? "Anything that Canada does can't be entirely revolutionary--it's Canada," Obama joked. "When I drive through Toronto, it doesn't look like a bunch of Maoists." Even so, Obama said that although he "would not shy away from a debate about single-payer," right now he is "not convinced that it is the best way to achieve universal healthcare."
Obama has a remarkable ability to convince you that his positions are motivated purely by principles, not tactical considerations. This skill is so subtle and impressive, it resembles Luke Skywalker's mastery of the Force. It's a powerful tool for a Democratic Party that often emanates calculation rather than conviction. "I don't think in ideological terms. I never have," Obama said, continuing on the healthcare theme. "Everybody who supports single-payer healthcare says, 'Look at all this money we would be saving from insurance and paperwork.' That represents 1 million, 2 million, 3 million jobs of people who are working at Blue Cross Blue Shield or Kaiser or other places. What are we doing with them? Where are we employing them?"
Shifting back to how he sees himself in the Senate, Obama seemed to amend his previous statement about what kind of leadership progressives can expect from him. "I am agnostic in terms of the models that solve these problems," he said. "If the only way to solve a problem is structural, institutional change, then I will be for structural, institutional change. If I think we can achieve those same goals within the existing institutions, then I am going to try to do that, because I think it's going to be easier to do and less disruptive and less costly and less painful.... I think everybody in this country should have basic healthcare. And what I'm trying to figure out is how to get from here to there." He went on to tell me about his support for other structural changes such as public financing of elections, forcing broadcasters to offer free airtime for candidates, adding strong labor protections to trade pacts and major efforts to create a more just tax system. Sirota's piece has lots of language that rubs me the wrong way - arguing about whether "liberals" are somehow different from "progressives", etc., etc. And his snark at the start of the piece, and apparent glee in trying to say Obama was a fraud or something, seems mostly to be what one would expect in a hatchet-job. But the quoted paragraphs above seem fair to me, even with the snarkiness. YMMV. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #396,869
12/4/14 12:57:44 PM
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My Sirota link was the basis of that article.
But the link is the full quote (not edited by the Obama fans at the Nation) and puts Obama's actual position in the proper light. Which conflicts substantially from what you're purporting is/was his position.
Face it, Scott. He's another defender of the oligarchy. Comcast CEO to head FCC, health insurance lobbyists in the so-called healthcare reform effort, etc. sic nauseum. The cost of medical care REMAINS the leading cause of personal bankruptcy in this country even after the PPACA. That is an abomination. No one should ever lose their home because a family member got sick. No federal legislation should have ever passed that mandated every citizen to participate (and add to the profits of) the industry responsible for that reality.
For five years I worked in the health insurance industry. It is corrupt to its core. Even if I give Obama credit for wanting to reform it (in spite of all evidence to the contrary, mind you), I *know* it cannot be reformed. It is as rotten as anything Goldman Sachs has ever come up with. If he were a Progressive and realized how corrupt Washington is, he'd know he had to appeal to the corporate masters who are not involved in the healthcare scam that is the US health system. And that would be *easy*. "Honda, Mercedes, BMW, Toyota. None of them have to pay a profit to other companies to provide health care to their workers. Why should GM, Chrysler, Ford and Tesla? It's unfair to our corporations who have to put the costs of paying off Anthem, Wellpoint, Humana and all the rest into the cost of producing their products while their competitors have no such costs." Sheesh. The stuff would almost write itself.
When Canada switched to Single Payer, the bill to do so was eight pages long. How much of the 2,000 pages of the PPACA do you think were special carveouts for the corporate masters?
As far as my comment being "delusional", I can only point out that the man actually said it. I'm being criticized for taking Obama at his word?
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Post #396,875
12/4/14 9:28:47 PM
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It's amazing that we see things so differently. Oh well.
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Post #396,879
12/5/14 11:07:40 AM
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Not that amazing
MM and I have a tendency to look at something that is bad and conclude that it is fucking atrocious. Your tendency is to say, well ick, but the other choice is probably worse. The solution is going to be very messy. Given. I accept this; you apparently don't. I can't speak for MM. Empires die. In one sense, we are living in end times, but not the way the religionists would have it. The country is moribund now; we will probably see it disintegrate. It will probably be, what's the word?, messy.
"Religion, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable." ~ AMBROSE BIERCE (1842-1914)
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Post #396,864
12/4/14 12:00:20 PM
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Re: Insurance premiums
The 3.6 percent growth that the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid recorded in 2013 is the smallest increase the agency has ever seen since it started tracking medical spending in 1960. […]
The second-smallest increase came in 2009, when health costs grew 3.8 percent.
Taken together, this shows that health care costs have grown really slowly for five years now. Some of this is likely cyclical: when the economy goes south, patients tend to use less medical care. But there are also hints that some of the slower growth is due to more structural changes in the health care sector—and could stick around for at least the next decade are so.
http://www.vox.com/2014/12/3/7328423/health-costs-lowest-growth
Satan (impatiently) to Newcomer: The trouble with you Chicago people is, that you think you are the best people down here; whereas you are merely the most numerous. - - - Mark Twain, "Pudd'nhead Wilson's New Calendar" 1897
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Post #396,871
12/4/14 1:09:23 PM
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The amount of increase is highly dependent upon where you live.
Colorado is seeing upwards of 30%. Locally, we negotiated a 6% increase. Rates in our area are up between 5% and 10% which is, not coincidentally, the same as they have been since 2000. There is NOTHING in the PPACA that contributes a nickel's worth of downward pressure on health insurance premium rates. The only possible throttle on that was the public option - that Pelosi GOT THROUGH THE HOUSE and had to take out at the Administration's behest. IF we had a competent President and IF that had been pushed through the Senate to become law, that is the only thing that would keep the robber barons of the existing system in check. They fought against that like crazy because they *knew* if Americans were offered the same or better benefits for lower prices, their business model would blow up. The very best run private health insurance companies run close to 120% of Medicare to deliver the exact, same services. What do you get for that extra 20%? Profits that can partially go to campaign contributions to people like Obama. It sickens me.
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Post #396,874
12/4/14 9:21:20 PM
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Re: The amount of increase is highly dependent upon where you live.
KFF says the 2nd cheapest Silver plan in Indianapolis is 7% cheaper this year (before subsidy) for a 40 year non-smoker making $30k. Bronze is 7.5% cheaper. Mike writes: The only possible throttle on that was the public option - that Pelosi GOT THROUGH THE HOUSE and had to take out at the Administration's behest. (sigh) Your memory is faulty. You need to accept that Obama isn't the Green Lantern. Obama would have been happy to sign a bill with a public option. He would be happy to see the PPACA changed to move to single-payer, too. He's not one preventing those things - the members of the House and (especially) the Senate are. That was his main concern - getting a bill that would help people through both Houses. Why didn't you go thermonuclear on President Lieberman and the rest who were going to kill it by voting against it? NY Times: WASHINGTON — Under pressure from moderate-to-conservative members of the House Democratic caucus, Speaker Nancy Pelosi has decided to propose a government-run insurance plan that would negotiate rates with doctors and hospitals, rather than using prices set by the government, aides said Wednesday.
Ms. Pelosi said the public plan, which she prefers to call a “consumer option,” would compete with private insurers. But the speaker was apparently unable to muster the votes needed for the “robust” liberal version of a public plan, which she has repeatedly said would save more money for consumers and the government.
Members of the House Democratic leadership team offered these details of their bill, to be unveiled on Thursday. It would provide coverage to 35 million or 36 million people. The 10-year cost of expanding coverage would be less than the $900 billion ceiling suggested by President Obama. The cost would be offset by new taxes and by cutbacks in Medicare, so the bill would not increase the federal budget deficit in the next 10 years or in the decade after that.
The new bill, like an earlier version, retains a surtax on high-income people, but increases the thresholds. The tax would hit married couples with adjusted gross incomes exceeding $1 million a year and individuals over $500,000 — just three-tenths of 1 percent of all households, Democrats said.
Ms. Pelosi can describe the proposal as a “millionaires’ tax.” The original thresholds were $280,000 for individuals and $350,000 for couples.
The government insurance plan would negotiate rates with doctors and hospitals, as private insurers do. Payments would not be based on Medicare rates, as Ms. Pelosi had wanted. Democrats from rural areas balked at the use of Medicare rates, saying they were so low that hospitals could not survive on them.
House Democratic leaders will hold a rally at the Capitol on Thursday to promote the legislation. They hope to take it to the House floor next week, with a final vote before Veterans Day, Nov. 11.
Scores of lobbyists were “cordially invited” to attend the rally in e-mail messages sent Wednesday by Ms. Pelosi. The Senate majority leader, Harry Reid, Democrat of Nevada, announced Monday that he too had decided to include a government plan, with negotiated rates, in the bill he intends to take to the Senate floor for weeks of debate.
House Democrats do not have firm commitments from enough lawmakers to guarantee passage of their bill at the moment. But their aggressive schedule suggests they are confident they can round up the votes they need.
Speaker Pelosi evidently fell well short of the votes needed for the “robust” public option.
A whip count, prepared Tuesday, shows that 47 House Democrats opposed that approach while 8 more were “leaning no.” That suggests that Ms. Pelosi had lined up, at most, 201 votes of the 218 she would probably need. Ms. Pelosi’s difficulties in securing votes for the most liberal version of a government insurance plan were illustrated by four members of her caucus. DemocracyNow: The healthcare debate on Capitol Hill is expected to intensify today with the unveiling of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s healthcare bill. The measure reportedly includes a government insurance option and an expansion of Medicaid but drops a proposal to include a public option that would establish reimbursement rates to providers based on Medicare rates. Meanwhile, in the Senate questions remain over whether Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid has enough votes to pass the Senate version of the healthcare reform bill. [includes rush transcript]
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
JUAN GONZALEZ: The healthcare debate on Capitol Hill is expected to intensify this morning with the unveiling of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s healthcare bill. The Washington Post reports the bill will include a government insurance option and an expansion of Medicaid.
But Pelosi has reportedly abandoned efforts to include a public option that would establish reimbursement rates to providers based on Medicare rates. Under Pelosi’s bill, rates would be negotiated between providers and federal health officials, similar to the way in which private insurance operates.
Pelosi’s bill will also reportedly include a surtax on high-income people. The new bill, like an earlier version, retains a surtax on wealthy Americans, but Pelosi has significantly reduced the number of taxpayers who will have to pay it. The tax would only hit married couples with an adjusted gross income exceeding $1 million a year and individuals over $500,000. Earlier Democratic bills called for new taxes on individuals making $280,000 a year and for couples making over $350,000.
AMY GOODMAN: In the Senate, questions remain over whether Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid has enough votes to pass the Senate version of the healthcare reform bill. On Wednesday, independent Senator Joseph Lieberman appeared on Fox and vowed to vote against the current legislation. How many votes does the President get in the Senate again? Obama could only sign a bill that passed both Houses. If you want single payer, get together with your compatriots and demand that Indiana set up or join a Co-Op. Colorado has one. Indiana seems to be aware that such things exist, but there's little indication that one is being set up. Richard Mayhew is still in the industry you left. He's worked 80+ hour weeks getting things together for the PPACA. He knows what's in it, how it works, and can count votes in the Senate. Maybe review some of his older posts about it. Yeah, some people and companies will pay more this year than last, but many will pay less. Too many people are getting squeezed even with the subsidies. The bill could have been much better. And Roberts should be strung-up for breaking the Medicare expansion provisions. But as it is, it's helping people and it can be improved over time with sensible people in Congress and the White House. Burning down things doesn't make them better.... FWIW. I think I'm done on this topic (for a few weeks anyway!). Cheers, Scott.
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Post #396,876
12/5/14 8:31:12 AM
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FWIW.
In my view, the absolutely worst, most despicable thing Al Gore ever did was put Leibermann on the ticket. Liebermann should be among the first against the wall.
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Post #396,877
12/5/14 9:55:14 AM
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I think that's the main reason why he lost.
It was a bone-headed decision. I don't recall who else was in the running, but this story mentions Edwards as being in the running. It's hard to imagine that he would have kept his pants zipped if he had been picked. His infidelity blowing up during the campaign, or worse - after taking office - would have been a disaster (not as bad as 9/11 and Iraq, but a disaster nonetheless). Agreed, it was a bone-headed choice. Lieberman was known for being an anti-Hollywood scold and not much else. He became a Republican without the R if he wasn't already... He detracted from the campaign by not adding anything positive to it. But I must disagree a bit. First against my metaphorical wall should be Roger Ailes, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Rick Santelli, Sheldon Adelson, Charles and David Koch, Rupert Murdoch, and those like them who are malevolent forces driving ignorance and reactionary policies through trumped-up fear and stupidity. Lieberman can wait. ;-) /snark FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #396,881
12/5/14 11:30:13 AM
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sure turn off every voice you mentioned
how did that work for goebbels and beria in the long run?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
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Post #396,882
12/5/14 12:07:31 PM
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"In the long run we're all dead."
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Post #396,908
12/6/14 6:33:19 AM
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I think that we are unable even to measure the degrees of our Brokenness,
and agree that that list (+a USSC-in-political-mode and with its own sociopaths, in there-for-Life) ... all have been synergistic in targeting directly and effectively the stereotypical feckless, ill-informed (also disinterested) occasional-voter (..and so few of those.)
'Moloch' was never more aptly portrayed in real-liff than by the means to the ends of these allied propagandists: never mind the religio-definitions with devils and such; Evil exists in all sorts of depraved jelloware. Add unlimited wealth to the above collaborationists: and here we are.
(As to Box's loaded Göbbels comparo: that fits only in that He Won for doing exactly what your list-members are doing with similar success, here now. In both cases the vanquished were/are those who have some idea of what sociopathic-directed Power will inevitably do: dismantle everything since the Enlightenment.) The Nazis might have used their Win in n-ways to consolidate, continue their hegemony locally, not imagine conquering Die Welt. Who knows how long that circus would have persisted before it self-destructed via irate mobs.
At the dis-US's present rate of millions of gullibles signing-on to every form of probable actions, guaranteed to work against their ever having (again) a living wage, non-bankrupting healthcare: What's the difference between USA-2014 and Weimar?
Those well-educated Germans, many with trepidations for all the right reasons ... nevertheless joined the euphoria, believed in Unicorns (and doubted that Hitler 'meant' what was in Mein Kampf (because "who could be That crazy", actually?) AIles et al have acted with nearly the same mission, innovated new levels of deceit while never tipping their personal-demons motives. That-too seems to be working a treat. As in, What's the difference between USA-2014 and Weimar?
Think we've already seen Language Murder as Evil as it gets? I think we're drawing to an inside straight; we'd best hope that this tribe of unreconstructed Neo-conmen displays their max hubris from the get-go, launching an all-out war against all social constructs ever described as: "for the Common Good".
Let these initial steps [tried-for, however obviously vetoed] demand Draconian 'cuts' for social fabric and infrastructure along with inevitable 'cuts' in the tax rates of the already obscenely-rich. But.. If they are sufficiently subtle in their dismantling campaign.. then, What's the *difference between USA-2014 and Weimar-1930?
* One difference: transistors and a massive explosion of New-techno: unleashed with little/no? concept nor concern about the ramifications of the most efficient propagandizing New Tools ever. We are amidst these n Giant-uncontrolled-experiments right now ... and we are slowly to discover whether more truthiness?? m i g h t win?? ... ... over the Power of $Ts for premeditated Evil.
Wanna bet? (you already have.)
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Post #396,914
12/6/14 3:45:52 PM
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Dunno. We have learned a little.
Even with all the mistakes and intentional sabotage of the recovery, we did learn a lot from the 1930s and we applied a few of those lessons. As Obama said, our economy is doing much better than other major economies now. I dunno if the changes now are all that much more uncontrolled than back then, though. 30 years before the 1930s, powered flight was still a dream. And all the other things from the LRPD from Crichton's book...: Remember, people in 1900 didn't know what an atom was. They didn't know its structure.
They also didn't know what a radio was, or an airport, or a movie, or a television, or a computer, or a cell phone, or a jet, an antibiotic, a rocket, a satellite, an MRI, ICU, IUD, IBM, IRA, ERA, EEG, EPA, IRS, DOD, PCP, HTML, internet. interferon, instant replay, remote sensing, remote control, speed dialing, gene therapy, gene splicing, genes, spot welding, heat-seeking, bipolar, prozac, leotards, lap dancing, email, tape recorder, CDs, airbags, plastic explosive, plastic, robots, cars, liposuction, transduction, superconduction, dish antennas, step aerobics, smoothies, twelve-step, ultrasound, nylon, rayon, teflon, fiber optics, carpal tunnel, laser surgery, laparoscopy, corneal transplant, kidney transplant, AIDS... None of this would have meant anything to a person in the year 1900. They wouldn't know what you are talking about. The Internet may even help save us, even with IS and al Qaeda and the Molon Labe-ies and all the rest using it to recruit disturbed and disillusioned people. It's harder for them to hide, and AFAIK, there's nobody like Lester Maddox in high office in any state any more. Don't get disillusioned. We gotta keep pushing that boulder forward... Cheers, Scott.
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Post #396,927
12/7/14 4:52:48 PM
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Re: Lester Maddox. Introduce yourself to Indiana's sitting governor.
Or our about-to-be-indicted former Secretary of Education. Don't sell these guys short.
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Post #396,928
12/7/14 5:34:14 PM
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does he sell autographed axe handles?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
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Post #396,935
12/8/14 9:34:44 AM
12/8/14 9:35:20 AM
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That would actually be better.
From our Governor... "I've met David Koch on several occasions. I'm grateful to have enjoyed his support and the support of many of the people that support Americans for Prosperity across Indiana and across this country," Pence said in an interview as he headed into a private AFP dinner featuring remarks from Koch and a keynote speech by columnist and pundit George Will.
"I'm very grateful for the leadership of this organization," Pence said of Americans for Prosperity, which has backed his tax-slashing agenda in Indiana, and which is comprised partly of a foundation arm chaired by Koch. "I'm just honored to be able to come down today and be a part of this gathering and express my real appreciation for what Americans for Prosperity has meant in this country and in Indiana, in particular." […]
"Americans for Prosperity has demonstrated that you can bring together people from all across this movement who will work in concert to advance the principles of fiscal responsibility, pro-growth policies and limited government," Pence said. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/29/1325641/-Mike-Pence-joins-the-cult-of-Koch#Some info on our former Superintendent... Bennett, a protege of former Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels and former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, resigned as Florida's schools chief in August 2013 after the AP published emails showing he had overhauled Indiana's "A-F" school grading system to benefit a charter school run by a prominent Republican donor.
The full Bennett investigation document alleges that from Jan. 1, 2012, to Dec. 31, 2012, there were more than 100 violations of wire fraud laws. The investigator identified 56 instances by 14 Bennett employees that he said supported wire fraud charges.
In a section labeled "Scheme to Defraud," the inspector general's office laid out its case, saying Bennett "devised a scheme or artifice to defraud the State of Indiana of money and property by using State of Indiana paid employees and property, for his own personal gain, as well as for his own political benefit" to be re-elected.
The allegations fell into five categories: political campaign fundraising, responding to political opponent's assertions, calendar political activity meetings, political campaign call appointments and general political campaign activity. http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/ap-exclusive-bennett-probe-called-prosecution-27314222

Edited by mmoffitt
Dec. 8, 2014, 09:35:20 AM EST
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Post #396,949
12/8/14 5:43:24 PM
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Well, per NYT it seems the Repos want all-eggs-in-one coffin: soon.
so that all those Undisclosed Donors can put all resources into perpetual maintenance of the dis-US {for certain definitions of perpetual.} No point in wasting money fighting among the 100-or-so Rulers, is there? They Have Said It: now watch for the world's fastest four-handed-game (except when ... it slips out..?) to reach a rollicking consensus on who shall next become the Keeper of the Flame Wars. Real-soon-now. Imagine: A.F.[My!] Prosperity ... actually controlling who get's 'elected' ... and how they must vote!!(Do they think we are all Idiots.. or something?)
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Post #396,954
12/8/14 8:22:05 PM
12/8/14 8:23:18 PM
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And so, Ashton, from your posts these long years ...
I take you, perhaps wrongly but perhaps not, as someone who abhors violence. In the face of all of we've written over the years, do you maintain that we can be saved without significant bloodshed? Perhaps it was my upbringing, realizing that Tsar Nicholas and his family had to be slaughtered else some (many?) Russians would at some later date seek a "bloodline to the throne" to restore feudalism to the Soviet Union (much as we did in Kuwait for the sake of cheap oil), but I cannot, for my soul, imagine a path to a just US of A that doesn't include significant violence and bloodshed. It is not so much that I am eager to see it, but that I see no possible other course. Do you, at last, retain enough faith in the fables of our first landed aristocracy to believe such is possible in the absence of violent revolution?

Edited by mmoffitt
Dec. 8, 2014, 08:23:18 PM EST
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Post #396,961
12/8/14 11:07:38 PM
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we need a snake plisken
emp the whole motherfucker.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
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Post #396,993
12/10/14 5:18:52 AM
12/10/14 6:33:13 AM
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I remain steadfastly bi-polar on that huge Question..
It's likely too-long, but more legible sentences happen as a non-squeezed separate post. (Takes moi more words, trying to be neutral ... on an impossible scale.) Stop at 2) if you see that already==probability 0, eh? I wish that 'neutral' seemed rosier, but.. we get daily doses of Pollyanna in every bloviation of a Politico. It's basic Stuart Chase.
Initially--and still--I too cannot see any slow.. rational.. Patient! route from this massive cluster-fuck--of virtually every aspect of the many systems--as magically overturning the incomparable-$$$-Power amassed by the Ruling Handful of über sociopaths. Zippo.. nada.. none comes to imagination (other than fantasy-Unicorn-grade.) (My psyche prizes equanimity as the least-insane place to be--even at gunpoint--which remains to be determined, of course.) I deem it a Good Thing that the Futchah is completely un-Predictable. But it's the grand-daddy of essay questions, innit? This, and then: OTOH That. Pity, unlike tortoises, our species gets so-soon old and so-very-late smart. There's! that Pit for the swinging-Pendulum. Guess I'll have to see if my imagination has caught up with the zeitgeist, but anyone who doesn't punt on any specific 'predictions', or who conceives of "algorithms for future-engineering?" should be placed under clinical observation.
Maybe all the cliche projections apply or none of them; none can be taken as inexorable: Cosmic humor exists or doesn't, but it's fun to blame. The population-level Alone.. is a deal-breaker, if one ever wants to peer over the nearest horizon. And no-one Can peer into more than a few-massive-problems at-a-time; Homo-sap has grown massively in an instant of planetary-time. But only in numbers, not in smarts, except in only some.. persons' detailed factoids--solely in techno-understanding of the physical-Laws and their applications. To moi it seems that, relative to ruminations of many ancient Sages: our comprehension of the species' mental operations and their aberrations: we've learned little-more of psych or psyches and especially of inchoate mobs. That last is likely to negate efforts of even (almost-wise Pols..?) when next, unrest manifests itself in surprising, new modes.
These Ruling mofos were born ethics-free (from same school as that unter-mofo from Redmond, way-back maybe at IW still?) His quip: If it's legal it's ethical! Yup, he said that, exactly, after various snipings re M$ clear pact-with-Lucifer. These ~100 Rulers have no slightest interest in any of the base-mores of an actually-Livable Society of humans. (I don't think this is seriously arguable to moi, after eons of listening to BS-rationalizations of so many CIEIOs: to escape the Greed-tag or make it seem benevolent (after St. Ronnie re-defined it ..for a willing audience.) I can parse what I've deemed the main obstacles against Muricans acting wisely next and in time, but that won't be possible in sound-bites, because they are all about being cute. Or just cynical, which may be the same thing(?)
1) They. won't. change. 2) So the mass Must. The hugely-Improbable must occur despite the facts: of the dis-USA tribe's addiction to fantastic-levels of personal comfort 24/7. The very many who have proven that they will Kill anything that moves! (forests, rivers, any humans not-them, animals of all species, mountain-tops-leveled, Mercury-tailings left to infiltrate water sources everywhere) ... all in pursuit of a 'Success' which always manifests in a cargo-cult-ship full of Stuff, piled higher and deeper. Carlin grokked this to Fullness, (amidst: the many Giants upon whose shoulders he stood, Defiantly.)
3) The coddled-many would have to divert their lusts: from infinite #Objects ... into a lust for an authentic Life (not their daily quiet desperation, within-the-cubicles for all-daylight-hours) thence, only to have to face the crumbling-Everything and the violent, insane ramblings on most Channels--face that-all, even after too-many hits of favorite winding-down substances? Maybe before dinner. Could such ones vacate for a time, that comfy couch-with-attached-TV and begin to DO THINGS? 'Speak Truth to Power'? Sure. it's a start. But ACT, next? any next??
So then, back to you: what ARE the fucking-odds on (the first-ever) mass epiphanies?? [Except: "epiphanies in our dreams"]--so Murican: vicariously!--by reading (OK watching; we are nothing if not passive adsorbers) those histories which chronicle events wherein: many of The Masses coalesced, conflated discontents to a few stirring, inclusive-slogans and: DID THINGS (for many of them, too: for the first time in their miserable existences.) There were quite fewer of us, then. Now, with sane limits not yet even discussable! re our current overpopulation: HS-math shows the inevitable geometric -vs- exponential divergence. And political-folk can't handle such inevitabilities as (say, Energy-costs in terms of individuals as a ƒ(Δaffluence?) ... across the Billions.) This one Will be Interesting, whenever ~faced. (I can see n plots for the Don't Care extrapolation. Our current Masters don't extrapolate well, at all: 'Power' is easy! if the only variable is money accumulation, in a kultur which worships Only-that.. as a plurality.
{{sigh}} 4) I'm open always to the Improbable, including many of Scott's oft insightful arguments for intelligent moderation. Were there more 'Scotts' in the tribe, the dis-USA couldn't have happened! But this tribe generates wasp-nests of (not just white-privilege) My Grammas. Their stentorian howlings are multiplexed and multiplied well-beyond their actual numbers. Techno has massively aggravated the matter, perhaps terminally. (And that magnifier/catalyst can only grow, in any next. We cannot un-Do that.)
I'm sure that no one here wants to see this dilemma deepened-unto-Ignition! as 5) I fear it Shall: given the next two tenuous YEARS of unprecedented daily disinformation, funded by bottomless pockets. Perhaps.. as with the Cops-as-killers and the now widespread revelations of how absurdly-FEW are all the Plutocrats it takes to Buy-out most of the citizens' Reps via re-election handouts? Is that enough realization, yet? (in the collective ears of the masses, I mean.)
There's some reason for the popularity of various authors' takes on dystopias; is there wistfulness there, for replacing a/any present-one? or just more vicarious escapes to a Can't Ever Happen Here, fantasy? (I was once decent at the art of grenade throwing (ain't no baseball, that iron-cased thing) but would now be little use in some forms of the DOINGS. But I can make phlogiston, that simple chemical combo which--fortunately, to-date--has escaped notice amongst the new legions of Disgruntled. So far..
6) Maybe.. the Web, if it can stay un-muzzleable for most-all: Can produce a sufficiency of Aha!!s thus enough individual epiphanies to reach critical-mass: to create for the First-time ever on these shores: a Clean-enough Map for authentic democracy to be sanely-introduced/also quickly-enough. Authentic? == sans gameable-Electoral Colleges, Money-as-speech and ... Biz-Corps as People! (partial list.)
But.. you know... (only very-approximate, mere probabilities--those are just 'maths' We Like; Reality: never.) to reach: 7) Success! a new Democracy arises! from the ashes of the Failed-experiment … RIP 1776-2015, -2016? -2020? -Never? ;-/
: Format.
I'll be 'on the Barricades' if the core is indeed rotted-out, of course. Not vicariously though; find me in the necessary er, supply-chain of useful 'tools' for the athletic-supporter Arm. (Mil. schools may have taught me Why I'd never join a real-militia, but I did learn some skillz which I thought I'd never need, or at least, never wanted to Use.) Oh. Well.
Hmmm.. "Aircraft + phlogiston" go together like a horse and carriage, so who knows? And if the Crazies snag the W.H. for another 4, 8? years: that would be Twenty or Twenty-four Years of Leadership, non compos mentis: as the [-] slope never wavered to a [+]. More than a Generation of the Disgruntled. Quite a Petri-dish in which to grow (Something.) Keep that license current, eh? It is going to be, next, unarguably ... a Squeaker! whatever else it "becomes."

Edited by Ashton
Dec. 10, 2014, 06:33:13 AM EST
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Post #396,957
12/8/14 8:52:14 PM
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OTOH: Wasting their money may help the economy.
National Jorunal: But a funny thing happened on the way to the polls. Yes, Democrats were swept from power, and Reid from his post as leader. Yet few observers would place the blame on a lack of money. Instead, most would point to a tough political environment, a hostile Senate map, and—more than anything else—an unpopular president, as the factors that dragged down Democrats nationwide. Although Koch-linked organizations targeted key Senate races with negative ads in the spring, that effort was far in the rearview mirror by Nov. 4. Come summer and fall, Democrats had found the funds to answer. As Justin Barasky, a spokesman for the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, told me a few days before the election, "It's clear that the early spending blitz by the Koch brothers was a giant waste of money."
In fact, although the midterm elections are believed to have set a new record, with nearly $4 billion spent on hundreds of thousands of mailers and about 1 million TV ads, political strategists on both sides of the aisle identify few, if any, major races where money was the biggest determining factor. The Democratic hype that the Kochs were buying the Senate proved overblown; so did the GOP's own fear campaign about liberal billionaire environmentalist Tom Steyer purchasing the upper chamber.
In the end, the two parties appear to have begged, borrowed, and fundraised their way to, if not parity, at least a financial draw. Each side had more than enough money to get its message out in the most important races; it just wasn't enough for Democrats, in the face of their other obstacles, to win. "I don't know, looking at the map, if you can point to any one race and say someone won or lost because of money," says Brian Walsh, a Republican strategist who was communications director for the National Republican Senatorial Committee in 2012. There is too much money in politics. It's corrosive because it's tied up with access. But once a candidate has enough, having more doesn't matter as far as the election is concerned. We joke and scream about the grifters taking advantage of the poor rubes out there. They are probably grifting the Kochs, too... Cheers, Scott.
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