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New And so, Ashton, from your posts these long years ...
I take you, perhaps wrongly but perhaps not, as someone who abhors violence. In the face of all of we've written over the years, do you maintain that we can be saved without significant bloodshed? Perhaps it was my upbringing, realizing that Tsar Nicholas and his family had to be slaughtered else some (many?) Russians would at some later date seek a "bloodline to the throne" to restore feudalism to the Soviet Union (much as we did in Kuwait for the sake of cheap oil), but I cannot, for my soul, imagine a path to a just US of A that doesn't include significant violence and bloodshed. It is not so much that I am eager to see it, but that I see no possible other course. Do you, at last, retain enough faith in the fables of our first landed aristocracy to believe such is possible in the absence of violent revolution?
Collapse Edited by mmoffitt Dec. 8, 2014, 08:23:18 PM EST
And so, Ashton, from your posts these long years ...
I take you, perhaps wrongly but perhaps not, as someone who abhors violence. In the face of all of we've written over the years, do you maintain that we can be saved without significant bloodshed? Perhaps it was my upbringing, realizing that Tsar Nicholas and his family had to be slaughtered else some (many?) Russians would at some later date seek a "bloodline to the throne" to restore feudalism to the Soviet Union (much as we did in Kuwait for the sake of cheap oil), but I cannot, for my soul, imagine a path to a just US of A that does include significant violence and bloodshed. It is not so much that I am eager to see it, but that I see no possible other course. Do you, at last, retain enough faith in the fables of our first landed aristocracy to believe such is possible in the absence of violent revolution?
New we need a snake plisken
emp the whole motherfucker.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
New I remain steadfastly bi-polar on that huge Question..
It's likely too-long, but more legible sentences happen as a non-squeezed separate post. (Takes moi more words, trying to be neutral ... on an impossible scale.)
Stop at 2) if you see that already==probability 0, eh? I wish that 'neutral' seemed rosier, but.. we get daily doses of Pollyanna in every bloviation of a Politico. It's basic Stuart Chase.

Initially--and still--I too cannot see any slow.. rational.. Patient! route from this massive cluster-fuck--of virtually every aspect of the many systems--as magically overturning the incomparable-$$$-Power amassed by the Ruling Handful of über sociopaths. Zippo.. nada.. none comes to imagination (other than fantasy-Unicorn-grade.)
(My psyche prizes equanimity as the least-insane place to be--even at gunpoint--which remains to be determined, of course.) I deem it a Good Thing that the Futchah is completely un-Predictable.
But it's the grand-daddy of essay questions, innit? This, and then: OTOH That. Pity, unlike tortoises, our species gets so-soon old and so-very-late smart. There's! that Pit for the swinging-Pendulum. Guess I'll have to see if my imagination has caught up with the zeitgeist, but anyone who doesn't punt on any specific 'predictions', or who conceives of "algorithms for future-engineering?" should be placed under clinical observation.

Maybe all the cliche projections apply or none of them; none can be taken as inexorable: Cosmic humor exists or doesn't, but it's fun to blame.
The population-level Alone.. is a deal-breaker, if one ever wants to peer over the nearest horizon. And no-one Can peer into more than a few-massive-problems at-a-time; Homo-sap has grown massively in an instant of planetary-time. But only in numbers, not in smarts, except in only some.. persons' detailed factoids--solely in techno-understanding of the physical-Laws and their applications. To moi it seems that, relative to ruminations of many ancient Sages: our comprehension of the species' mental operations and their aberrations: we've learned little-more of psych or psyches and especially of inchoate mobs. That last is likely to negate efforts of even (almost-wise Pols..?) when next, unrest manifests itself in surprising, new modes.

These Ruling mofos were born ethics-free (from same school as that unter-mofo from Redmond, way-back maybe at IW still?) His quip: If it's legal it's ethical! Yup, he said that, exactly, after various snipings re M$ clear pact-with-Lucifer. These ~100 Rulers have no slightest interest in any of the base-mores of an actually-Livable Society of humans. (I don't think this is seriously arguable to moi, after eons of listening to BS-rationalizations of so many CIEIOs: to escape the Greed-tag or make it seem benevolent (after St. Ronnie re-defined it ..for a willing audience.) I can parse what I've deemed the main obstacles against Muricans acting wisely next and in time, but that won't be possible in sound-bites, because they are all about being cute. Or just cynical, which may be the same thing(?)

1) They. won't. change. 2) So the mass Must.
The hugely-Improbable must occur despite the facts: of the dis-USA tribe's addiction to fantastic-levels of personal comfort 24/7. The very many who have proven that they will Kill anything that moves! (forests, rivers, any humans not-them, animals of all species, mountain-tops-leveled, Mercury-tailings left to infiltrate water sources everywhere) ... all in pursuit of a 'Success' which always manifests in a cargo-cult-ship full of Stuff, piled higher and deeper. Carlin grokked this to Fullness, (amidst: the many Giants upon whose shoulders he stood, Defiantly.)

3) The coddled-many would have to divert their lusts: from infinite #Objects ... into a lust for an authentic Life (not their daily quiet desperation, within-the-cubicles for all-daylight-hours) thence, only to have to face the crumbling-Everything and the violent, insane ramblings on most Channels--face that-all, even after too-many hits of favorite winding-down substances? Maybe before dinner.
Could such ones vacate for a time, that comfy couch-with-attached-TV and begin to DO THINGS?
'Speak Truth to Power'? Sure. it's a start. But ACT, next? any next??

So then, back to you: what ARE the fucking-odds on (the first-ever) mass epiphanies??

[Except: "epiphanies in our dreams"]--so Murican: vicariously!--by reading (OK watching; we are nothing if not passive adsorbers) those histories which chronicle events wherein: many of The Masses coalesced, conflated discontents to a few stirring, inclusive-slogans and: DID THINGS (for many of them, too: for the first time in their miserable existences.)
There were quite fewer of us, then. Now, with sane limits not yet even discussable! re our current overpopulation: HS-math shows the inevitable geometric -vs- exponential divergence. And political-folk can't handle such inevitabilities as (say, Energy-costs in terms of individuals as a ƒ(Δaffluence?) ... across the Billions.) This one Will be Interesting, whenever ~faced. (I can see n plots for the Don't Care extrapolation. Our current Masters don't extrapolate well, at all: 'Power' is easy! if the only variable is money accumulation, in a kultur which worships Only-that.. as a plurality.

{{sigh}} 4) I'm open always to the Improbable, including many of Scott's oft insightful arguments for intelligent moderation. Were there more 'Scotts' in the tribe, the dis-USA couldn't have happened! But this tribe generates wasp-nests of (not just white-privilege) My Grammas. Their stentorian howlings are multiplexed and multiplied well-beyond their actual numbers. Techno has massively aggravated the matter, perhaps terminally. (And that magnifier/catalyst can only grow, in any next. We cannot un-Do that.)

I'm sure that no one here wants to see this dilemma deepened-unto-Ignition! as 5) I fear it Shall:
given the next two tenuous YEARS of unprecedented daily disinformation, funded by bottomless pockets. Perhaps.. as with the Cops-as-killers and the now widespread revelations of how absurdly-FEW are all the Plutocrats it takes to Buy-out most of the citizens' Reps via re-election handouts? Is that enough realization, yet? (in the collective ears of the masses, I mean.)

There's some reason for the popularity of various authors' takes on dystopias; is there wistfulness there, for replacing a/any present-one? or just more vicarious escapes to a Can't Ever Happen Here, fantasy?
(I was once decent at the art of grenade throwing (ain't no baseball, that iron-cased thing) but would now be little use in some forms of the DOINGS. But I can make phlogiston, that simple chemical combo which--fortunately, to-date--has escaped notice amongst the new legions of Disgruntled. So far..

6) Maybe.. the Web, if it can stay un-muzzleable for most-all: Can produce a sufficiency of Aha!!s thus enough individual epiphanies to reach critical-mass: to create for the First-time ever on these shores: a Clean-enough Map for authentic democracy to be sanely-introduced/also quickly-enough. Authentic? == sans gameable-Electoral Colleges, Money-as-speech and ... Biz-Corps as People! (partial list.)

But.. you know... (only very-approximate, mere probabilities--those are just 'maths' We Like; Reality: never.)
to reach:
7) Success! a new Democracy arises! from the ashes of the Failed-experiment … RIP 1776-2015, -2016? -2020? -Never? ;-/


: Format.


I'll be 'on the Barricades' if the core is indeed rotted-out, of course. Not vicariously though; find me in the necessary er, supply-chain of useful 'tools' for the athletic-supporter Arm.
(Mil. schools may have taught me Why I'd never join a real-militia, but I did learn some skillz which I thought I'd never need, or at least, never wanted to Use.) Oh. Well.

Hmmm.. "Aircraft + phlogiston" go together like a horse and carriage, so who knows?
And if the Crazies snag the W.H. for another 4, 8? years: that would be Twenty or Twenty-four Years of Leadership, non compos mentis: as the [-] slope never wavered to a [+]. More than a Generation of the Disgruntled. Quite a Petri-dish in which to grow (Something.)
Keep that license current, eh? It is going to be, next, unarguably ... a Squeaker! whatever else it "becomes."
Expand Edited by Ashton Dec. 10, 2014, 06:33:13 AM EST
     One for MM - Let's beat that dead horse one more time!! :-) - (Another Scott) - (26)
         Okay, I'll play. - (mmoffitt) - (25)
             Me too. - (Another Scott) - (24)
                 Total lack of leadership. - (mmoffitt) - (23)
                     Being able to count isn't lack of leadership. - (Another Scott) - (5)
                         They went to the people. That's what a real President is supposed to do. - (mmoffitt) - (4)
                             If Obama wanted that... - (Another Scott) - (3)
                                 My Sirota link was the basis of that article. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                     It's amazing that we see things so differently. Oh well. -NT - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                         Not that amazing - (hnick)
                     Re: Insurance premiums - (lincoln) - (16)
                         The amount of increase is highly dependent upon where you live. - (mmoffitt) - (15)
                             Re: The amount of increase is highly dependent upon where you live. - (Another Scott) - (14)
                                 FWIW. - (mmoffitt) - (13)
                                     I think that's the main reason why he lost. - (Another Scott) - (12)
                                         sure turn off every voice you mentioned - (boxley) - (1)
                                             "In the long run we're all dead." -NT - (Another Scott)
                                         I think that we are unable even to measure the degrees of our Brokenness, - (Ashton) - (9)
                                             Dunno. We have learned a little. - (Another Scott) - (8)
                                                 Re: Lester Maddox. Introduce yourself to Indiana's sitting governor. - (mmoffitt) - (7)
                                                     does he sell autographed axe handles? -NT - (boxley) - (6)
                                                         That would actually be better. - (mmoffitt) - (5)
                                                             Well, per NYT it seems the Repos want all-eggs-in-one coffin: soon. - (Ashton) - (4)
                                                                 And so, Ashton, from your posts these long years ... - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                                     we need a snake plisken - (boxley)
                                                                     I remain steadfastly bi-polar on that huge Question.. - (Ashton)
                                                                 OTOH: Wasting their money may help the economy. - (Another Scott)

I'm reconciled to the existence of idiots in the world, but I'm bitterly resentful of whoever it was who first thought to make computer technology available to them.
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