Post #384,289
12/16/13 8:41:13 PM
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Sorry to say, no.
We're having some cable issues, so I'm using my phone...
Snowden is a coward. Manning isn't. The hyperbole about 'disappearing' and 'death squads' and so forth makes me tune out.
Snowden has shown he's a liar. I trust nothing he's said without independent vetting.
Driftglass, IIRC, has posted about other accused violators of the espionage act who have received fair trials. Snowden will get a fair trial when he returns as well.
There probably is too much information collected from US persons that is security theater. Congress needs to do its oversight job, among its other jobs... In the meantime, I'm not worried about it. YMMV.
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #384,297
12/16/13 9:29:46 PM
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So, Scott...
The diplomat's CV, his very high-level posts within the defense/security/state apparatus, leave you unmoved when you read his analyses? Might I make bold to ask whether, had he written instead an essay precisely congruent with your take on l'affaire Snowden, you would be disposed to take that very same CV as ammunition, or would you indifferently dismiss it? In the latter case, one is entitled to wonder what credential you might accept as qualifying an authority to weigh in on this subject. If none, then all opinions—yours, mine, boxley's and the gibbering hominids at World Net Daily—may be given equal weight, greatly to the detriment of signal-to-noise ratios as these are preferred by rational actors. Honestly, why are you so readily disposed to dismiss the conclusions of a guy who has spent the past five decades far closer to the action than you or I, and who might be expected from that to have bought into the precepts of the Deep State?
cordially,
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Post #384,300
12/16/13 9:46:48 PM
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dead naked woman or live young boy wouldnt make a difference
depends on who holds the office :-)
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
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Post #384,309
12/16/13 10:39:14 PM
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He's offering an opinion piece - it's not persuasive to me.
I'm not persuaded by his over-the-top screeching. It has nothing to do with his apparently exemplary work in the foreign service and the Pentagon.
For example:
[1]Like Henry David Thoreau and many others in protest movements in our country over the past century and a half, Mr. Snowden deliberately broke the law to bring to public attention government behavior he considered at odds with the U.S. Constitution, American values, and the rule of law. [2]One point he wanted to make was that we Americans now live under a government that precludes legal or political challenges to its own increasingly deviant behavior. [3]Our government has criminalized the release of information exposing such behavior or revealing the policies that authorize it. The only way to challenge its policies and activities is to break the law by exposing them.
[1] Thoreau didn't swear an oath to the US government to protect secrets. Thoreau spent a night in jail for refusing to pay 6 years of back poll taxes - http://en.wikipedia....nry_David_Thoreau (A benefactor paid it for him.) Snowden isn't Thoreau or King or Manning or any other person who was actually willing to stand up and accept the consequences for their actions. Snowden is a coward who ran away.
[2] Ridiculous hyperbole. He wanted to make a point that we "now" live under such tyranny when he was perfectly happy to work for the CIA and the NSA starting in the early-mid 2000s. http://en.wikipedia....rd_Snowden#Career And what is this "increasingly deviant behavior" that so outraged him in May 2013 that didn't outrage him before?
[3] Legitimate whistleblowing is not only legal, it is encouraged. There are legal ways of doing so. http://en.wikipedia....er_Protection_Act
And so forth.
Rand asks:
Honestly, why are you so readily disposed to dismiss the conclusions of a guy who has spent the past five decades far closer to the action than you or I, and who might be expected from that to have bought into the precepts of the Deep State?
From my quick read of his piece, he doesn't seem to understand as much as he claims about what is going on with the NSA. But beyond that, when I'm reading something to see if it will change my mind, tone matters. Over the top screeching turns me off. Don't beat me over the head - show me some reasoning and some evidence.
Chas writes:
The very purpose of the state is the management of the nationÂs defense. To do this, the authorities must have situational awareness and early warning of possible threats from both state and non-state actors. SIGINT, like other forms of espionage and diplomatic reporting and analysis, is part of the answer to this need. But SIGINT was invented to support actions on the battlefield. For the most part, it remains a military project. We do not  we should not  ask our military to exercise restraint when attacking perceived threats. Armies are not expected to play by the rules but to win. They are inevitably inclined to overkill. It has been said that Âan elephant is a mouse built to mil-specs. True to the military culture of excess from which it sprang, NSA is an intrusive collection apparatus that has evolved to Âcollect it all. ÂAll is much too much.
Given their invisibility, secret programs have a particular propensity to expand beyond their original purposes. The view that activities that are not legal are not necessarily illegal, and that any and all technology should be exploited à lÂoutrance is what underlies the decision to Âcollect it all. It is hardly surprising that this has become NSAÂs self-proclaimed mission. Why does a chicken cross the road? Why does a dog lick its balls? Because it can. Why does NSA snoop on everyone everywhere online? Because it has the money and means to do so, not because what it collects meets any valid, externally determined national requirement, standard of efficiency, or foreign policy judgment. The fact that we are able to do things that violate the trust and privacy of others does not make it wise or appropriate to do them.
These two paragraphs tell me that: 1) he doesn't understand the NSA's mission; 2) he doesn't understand that IP packets aren't labeled "US Person/Non-US Person"; 3) he doesn't understand that there's a difference between "snooping on everyone" and having the ability to quickly sort through mountains of data for particular information that can only be accessed by following specific procedures; 4) without knowing what these programs actually do, or the details of how they are managed and the protections in place, he somehow (clairvoyance?) knows that there is no "valid ... national requirement, standard of efficiency, or foreign policy judgement".
He's bought into the story that Snowden is the second coming of MLK. That's fine. Many others have, too. Organizations that I respect and support like the EFF have glowing things to say about Snowden, too.
I don't. Maybe I'll be shown to be too cynical about him. We'll see.
Although I haven't read his books, it seems to me that Bamford is a much better messenger than Snowden, and many of the "revelations" that Snowden disclosed were known years ago by those who bothered to look. "The Puzzle Palace" came out in 1982.
http://www.newyorker...f-chronicler.html
[...]
ÂThe Shadow Factory, BamfordÂs rageful 2008 book about the N.S.A.Âs current troubles, is probably the most relevant of BamfordÂs books today. In it, he describes an agency that has become increasingly cavalier about what data it will collect, and from whom. As one official told Bamford, ÂItÂs what the N.S.A.Âs been doing since 9/11. TheyÂre just sweeping the stuff up. Hayden, by this time, has been made into Âa three-star sycophant unwilling to protect the agency from the destructive forces of Cheney and [David] Addington, CheneyÂs chief of staff. Whereas ÂBody of Secrets referenced Borges, ÂThe Shadow Factory alludes to Orwell.
Particularly irksome is the suspicion that, as far as spy agencies are concerned, the N.S.A. just isnÂt very good: Bamford said it has Âfailed badly in preventing attacks since the Cold War, missing everything from the first World Trade Center attack in 1993 to the recent Boston Marathon bombing. ThatÂs partly because, as the agency has been inundated with so much data, it has perhaps lost the ability to evaluate information in a timely manner. You need people to point out patterns, to say what is relevant and what is not. Or, as Bamford puts it in ÂA Pretext for War, the ÂN.S.A. needs human intelligence sources to help tell it where, and to whom, to listen. In the past, a rivalry with the C.I.A.Âwhich is largely responsible for human intelligence, in contrast to the N.S.A.Âs general focus on dataÂhad prevented that sort of symbiosis.
At the root of BamfordÂs fixation on the N.S.A. is a fascination with Americans willingness to Âbuy the company line of spymasters, who assure us that the letter of the law is being followed, that civil liberties are respected, even as evidence accumulates suggesting the opposite. It seems we want to believe that those charged with protecting us may occasionally break the law, but will only do it to keep us safe, the way the roguish patriot Carrie Mathison, played by Claire Danes, routinely does on the TV show ÂHomeland.Â
All this has made Bamford increasingly outraged. Though he refused to gloat during our conversation, it was clear that he felt vindicated for all his years of dogged pursuit. And he is still angry, as angry as he was back in 1982, when few Americans had ever heard of Crypto City. Surprisingly apolitical, Bamford simply wants the spies to account for what they do before they do it: ÂYou want to do this? he says of the N.S.A.Âs Prism program. ÂPut a bill through Congress. Have a public debate.Â
(Emphasis added.)
Yes, organizations like to expand their scope to increase their budgets, power, and the opportunities for promotion for everyone in organization. Mission creep is a always a potential problem. But that doesn't mean that the NSA is "snooping" on everyone or that the 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments are being "increasingly revoked" or that Obama is the 2nd coming of Stalin just waiting to throw us all in FEMA camps.
If you don't like what the NSA's doing, pressure Congress to change the laws that govern the NSA's activities.
I hope this helps you better understand where I'm coming from.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #384,317
12/17/13 1:50:03 AM
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Re: He's offering an opinion piece - it's not persuasive to
But that doesn't mean that the NSA is "snooping" on everyone They are, and they've said they are.
or that the 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments are being "increasingly revoked"
They are, and you know it.
If you don't like what the NSA's doing, pressure Congress to change the laws that govern the NSA's activities.
The fuckers are reading my email too - what the hell am I supposed to do about THAT?
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Post #384,324
12/17/13 8:45:59 AM
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nothing, we are entitled to your emails
the charter sez go snoop elsewhere, just not at home. Of course to get around that nsa regularly gets that info from your outfit and has since the 1970's or so
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
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Post #384,325
12/17/13 8:51:36 AM
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Re: He's offering an opinion piece - it's not persuasive to
The fuckers are reading my email too - what the hell am I supposed to do about THAT?
A feature, not a bug. ;-)
Seriously, the NSA collects lots and lots and lots of data. That doesn't mean that anyone looks at it unless they have a reason within their scope to do so.
http://www.nsa.gov/p...id_FI_Targets.pdf (2 page .pdf).
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #384,350
12/18/13 1:25:42 AM
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Re: He's offering an opinion piece - it's not persuasive to
If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged. And therein lies the problem. They've got the six lines.
They've got six lines on everyone.
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Post #384,355
12/18/13 8:07:08 AM
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And that's our protection.
There's too much chunder to sort through for them to spend time looking at our cat GIFs and pr0n search history. Or comments on politics and the like. They're not looking at us.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #384,357
12/18/13 8:32:54 AM
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Heh, no it's not.
Computer analytical power increases exponentially annually and we haven't even gone quantum yet.
They are looking at you - because you have to assume that as it isn't safe to assume that they're not.
Honestly, is your defence of the NSA's violation of the constitution, in essence, "well they've got so much stuff they can't look at it all?"
Dude. Please.
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Post #384,359
12/18/13 10:25:05 AM
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It's not their mission.
The NSA is run and staffed by people. People who are evaluated every year to determine what they worked on, how well they satisfied their job requirements, etc.
People don't get promoted if they don't do their jobs. They don't get raises if they don't do their jobs.
People get demoted, fired, prosecuted, and imprisoned if they break the rules and the laws. If they get told by their bosses to do something illegal, they can and should report it through the proper authorities.
"But what about Snowden! But what about contractors! But what about those guys at the IRS office that were snooping on celebrities and ex girlfriends!"
Yes, sometimes people break the rules and the laws. No matter what laws and rules are in place, some people will break them. No human system is perfect.
"But you're essentially saying that no human system can be trusted with such power! The NSA is too big! They have to stop "snooping" on the Internet!"
No.
Our protections, as Snowden himself said in one of his interviews when he revealed himself, are the the rules and processes in the system. Not the technology. Any technology can be misused. Any system without a particular technology can be misused if protections are not built into it.
Have you registered with UPS to get package delivery e-mail alerts? That was quite eye-opening for me. When I did so, they asked me a series of questions to verify that I was who I claimed. They had home addresses for me going back something like 30 years. Addresses that I hadn't thought about in decades. It's a little creepy.
Does it mean that UPS is "snooping" on me?
No.
It's not in the NSA's charter to snoop on Americans. It is illegal for them to do so without a court order. Are more protections needed to prevent them from having access to data from Americans, even in an incidental way? Maybe. Maybe not. Make the case, but don't go over the top about the NSA "snooping" on every American or that the Deep State is tramping on our rights.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #384,364
12/18/13 11:11:03 AM
12/18/13 11:40:36 AM
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Well said!
Sometimes reality just sucks. :)
Incidentally, I did that UPS thing in the last two weeks. Shocking questions. All based on ex post facto digitized public records no doubt.
[edit]Give the ancient Italians credit with italics.
Alex
Edited by a6l6e6x
Dec. 18, 2013, 11:40:36 AM EST
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Post #384,365
12/18/13 11:45:06 AM
12/18/13 1:30:05 PM
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Here's my problem
U.S. Constitution, Article 1, Section 9, Clause 3: "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed"
The problem with keeping all this information "even though they can't read it all" is that someone can decide tomorrow that something I did 10 years ago is now suspect, and they've got the evidence for it.
No, I'm not saying that they will actually pass an ex post facto law, but they sure could develop a data mining algorithm to identify the "right" people to look at for activities that just became suspect.
This is where you say, "Of course they could, that's their mission." :-/
[edit] tyop
--
Drew
Edited by drook
Dec. 18, 2013, 01:30:05 PM EST
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Post #384,366
12/18/13 12:16:50 PM
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Ok. And there's probably a good recent example of that...
http://bangordailyne...one-call-records/
Posted Sept. 26, 2013, at 7:41 a.m.
WASHINGTON  The head of the National Security Agency delivered a vigorous defense Wednesday of his agencyÂs collection of Americans phone records for counterterrorism purposes, saying the program was helpful in investigations of the Boston Marathon bombing and the suspected plots against U.S. diplomatic outposts this summer.
ÂIt provides us the speed and agility in crises, like the Boston Marathon tragedy in April and the threats this summer, Gen. Keith Alexander said at the Billington Cybersecurity Summit, a gathering of business and government officials.
AlexanderÂs address follows calls by some leading lawmakers to end the program because of concerns that it invades Americans privacy without having proven its value as a counterterrorism tool.
In a brief interview after his talk, Alexander said the program did not help identify the Boston suspects, brothers Dzhokhar and Tamerlan Tsarnaev. But he said that by using the database of domestic phone call records, the NSA was able to determine that fears about a follow-up attack in New York City were unfounded.
That's probably a clear example of "ex post facto", er, evidence. It's not an ex post facto law though.
Should the NSA or other 3 letter agency be able to have such data on hand to allow quick searches in an emergency? Maybe, maybe not.
I think it's reasonable to assume that such data exists, and will continue to exist with or without the NSA. And it's reasonable to assume that court orders requiring whoever has that data to give it up to law enforcement will also continue to exist. Perhaps at a moment's notice - computers do continue to get faster and more capable after all.
Are we really safer or freer if the NSA can get the data instantly from Verizon (after a court order) as opposed to getting it instantly from their own server farm in Utah (after satisfying various national security requirements)? The only difference, it seems to me, is that people with different badges might be tempted to break (likely) similar privacy and access rules to access it.
I haven't been convinced.
Some have proposed that there be some sort of wall between the data that's collected and access to it. It seems to me that there is already a wall (the rules, laws and procedures), but maybe it needs to be thicker or higher. Having more people in the way between the data and the investigators might make things safer, but they might also increase the risk of unauthorized disclosure (witness Snowden).
Oh, and IIRC, the NSA can only keep the metadata for 5 years, so rest easy. ;-)
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #384,369
12/18/13 12:36:59 PM
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Aw, come on.
This is weaselling.
They're reading your damn email. If someone invented a machine that could steam open paper mail, scan the contents, and re-seal it without trace, you know damn well the NSA would have the USPS install one in every sorting office in America.
It's illegal. It's unconstitutional.
They know it, and they know you know it, and they know you know there's not a damn thing you can do about it.
Because no judge, no politician and no President is gonna stand up and fight when the opposition will go "bu-bu-bu THE TERRORISTS! WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA SO MUCH!?"
Your acquiescence is a bit depressing.
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Post #384,372
12/18/13 12:54:48 PM
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<sigh>
Their biggest problem is separating the wheat from the chaff. Why would they want to intentionally add yottabytes of extraneous stuff to their servers when it is outside their mission?
They have to get their funding from Congress - the NSA doesn't create money out of thin air. If they are intentionally storing stuff that is not part of their mission, then they are using money and resources that should be used for other things (thereby not doing that work and risking all sorts of bad things) and not doing the things that they should be doing (thereby risking all sorts of bad things). They aren't hoovering up the Internet because they feel like it, playing around like kids at Wonka's factory.
The USPS logs all mail in its system - http://www.nytimes.c...il-mail.html?_r=0
Mr. Pickering was targeted by a longtime surveillance system called mail covers, a forerunner of a vastly more expansive effort, the Mail Isolation Control and Tracking program, in which Postal Service computers photograph the exterior of every piece of paper mail that is processed in the United States  about 160 billion pieces last year. It is not known how long the government saves the images.
Together, the two programs show that postal mail is subject to the same kind of scrutiny that the National Security Agency has given to telephone calls and e-mail.
The mail covers program, used to monitor Mr. Pickering, is more than a century old but is still considered a powerful tool. At the request of law enforcement officials, postal workers record information from the outside of letters and parcels before they are delivered. (Opening the mail would require a warrant.) The information is sent to the law enforcement agency that asked for it. Tens of thousands of pieces of mail each year undergo this scrutiny.
Are they "snooping" on all of us? No. Is it unconstitutional? No. Is it overbroad and are there insufficient safeguards? Maybe, maybe not.
The NSA doesn't read everyone's e-mails. They don't have enough money, enough people, enough time to do that. It's outside their mission. It's a distraction.
I assume you're just as outraged at GCHQ, MI5 and MI6 and have let your MP know about it?
https://www.mi5.gov....q/mi5-or-mi6.aspx
<sigh>
What I find outrageous is that we have people in Congress who have helped destroy the world economy, and that continue to fight sensible policies to lessen the suffering of people, and that refuse to work on the important problems that are facing our nation and the planet. This NSA-outrage stuff is small beans.
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #384,374
12/18/13 1:08:24 PM
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Scott, here's how they get around all that
THEY LIE.
They lie like a cheap rug, all the time, about everything.
Clapper lied to Congress, and nothing happened.
I don't know how you can possibly trust anything they say.
If the director of the NSA said that the sun will rise tomorrow morning, I'd get a second opinion.
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Post #384,380
12/18/13 1:35:05 PM
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That argument I'm sympathetic to
What I find outrageous is that we have people in Congress who have helped destroy the world economy, and that continue to fight sensible policies to lessen the suffering of people, and that refuse to work on the important problems that are facing our nation and the planet. This NSA-outrage stuff is small beans.
The sudden outrage by the same people who passed all this stuff, now that it's being used by a secret Muslim atheist Marxist socialist Nazi is almost enough to get me to totally discount it. Almost.
--
Drew
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Post #384,381
12/18/13 1:36:38 PM
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:-)
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Post #384,376
12/18/13 1:14:58 PM
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Meanwhile, in 1941, the Brits in Bermuda...
Miss Gardner was part of a small team of examiners who secretly went through mail that came in diplomatic pouches. The team were experts at what they termed ÂchamferingÂ. They could steam open letters, usually with a little kettle, and reseal them. They could also unwrap packages encased in a web of twine, examine the contents, and then put everything back as though the contents were never disturbed.
http://www.royalgaze...SLAND01/710049995
As mentioned in the reference, USA after entering the war, took over examining all transatlantic mail. Hey, it's not on US soil!
I got to see some pictures of this operation on a cruise to Bermuda.
Alex
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Post #384,388
12/18/13 6:55:56 PM
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J'Accuse..! that you are failing to
emotionally comprehend the exponential function, both as Has occurred/yet worse! and manifestly: about the Futchah.
(And yet: You Know all that math/physics stuff intellectually..) That isn't enough in a homo-sap milieu.
[There are bookshelves-bursting-full: replete with Examples of a Prime Fact]
We *Know* that all organization-employees Lie, some more/more often than others--starting with The (any..) President
(as nexus for all the options.. that s/he's ... actually.. been tipped-to)
Pollyanna Lives!!1ONE1! ... ... Et tu, Brute?
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Post #384,392
12/18/13 7:56:01 PM
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That's why the people working there matter.
It's not the mathematics or exponential functions or Moore's law. Bertie had a few things to say about mathematics... http://www.brainyquo...randru402437.html ;-)
It's not the server and sensor technology.
It's not the size of the budget.
It's not the press coverage that resulted from Snowden's leaks.
It's not the organizations that are on one side or another in making their arguments.
What really matters in this NSA stuff is the people. The people working there, the people doing oversight, and the people requesting information from them, the people writing the rules.
You want the best people you can get working there in the trenches, and the best managers you can get directing them and looking over their shoulders. You want the best people you can get on the courts deciding sensible solutions when arguments are made about the law. And you want the best people you can get writing the laws in the first place.
"But! But! People are flawed! People can't be trusted! You should be outraged!!!111"
Sorry. Outrage and emotional thinking leads to things like the Patriot Act. It leads to bad laws and bad long-term solutions. It distracts people from important issues.
Let's look over the report that was released today and see if changes they suggest make sense. Let's see if the proposed changes change the structure of the NSA in a way that eliminates the possibility of "snooping" on Americans, or whether there are instead modest tweaks or changes in process. I expect modest changes, and I expect Obama will have sensible things to say about them in January when he announces what changes he will make and propose to Congress.
It gets tiring, to me anyway, to have so many issues apparently driven by outrage. I can only cope with so many demands that I be outraged per month. We point and laugh at people who get outraged about Obama's birth certificate or invasion by illegal aliens or Benghazi or Healthcare.gov or Kony 2012 or ... It seems to me that some who don't get worked about those things but get riled up about the NSA are suffering from (or perhaps blessed by) the same affliction.
(I considered posting something about Snowden's and Greenwald's various posts on various issues over the years to further illustrate the point, but this is long enough as it is...)
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #384,397
12/18/13 9:18:12 PM
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need an James Angleton
If I didn't dislike DC so much I would do it
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
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Post #384,399
12/18/13 10:24:27 PM
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Fair. enough.
(Emotionally comprehend does not at-all imply any Rage--that has other roots.)
That state-of-mind merely adds-in to the intellectual Work: the wisdom-gleaned from
[whatever soupçon of that Ideal has managed to diffuse-into all life experience],
as one seeks some practicable next course of action--as I comprehend that phrase by E. Teller.
Indeed.. now we have this Report (which I have yet to peruse--as thoroughly as it seems at all Seriously-done.)
Next, we have All the political and other forces, their effects and BHO's Buck: Stopping Here.
(We also have these matters allegedly bubbling-up towards the USSC and the possibility of
that Third of the Govt. performing a lateral arabesque: so the confluence of these Two 'Deciders'
is what awaits; USSC might decide to butt-in Before or After BHO--right?
Thanks for your always sane words, the time/effort behind same. I know that we both assign more than token-importance to 'future effects'
of these pending doings/Decisions--but I am 100% with-you in your earlier fine sentence re what our
'Solons' Ought to be considering! instead of the trivial BS with which so many are obsessed, thus paralyzed.
IMO, the absence of Purpose, of apparent competence even--to focus on the truly-Vital! is a sound-enough reason for quite healthy-Rage:
but not an excuse to become Rage Boy and fulminate perpetually about each absurdity.
(Still, as the List grows longer of, simply, governance-Work!, evaded-by-clowns--rage is likely a continuing companion to the thoughtful-slice of the pie chart.)
Maybe a crucial failure of the species is ~ our inability to force perpetual-adolescents to strive for adulthood.
May January find for us at least a momentary exception to this sordid record.
Statistically: even by accident would do; it's been a l o n g - r u n of unremitting Idiocy-personified: >9/11/01
I will even light a Special candle--would Witchcraft help? widdershins?
Shooting-up a case of Coors horse-piss with a machine gun?
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Post #384,402
12/18/13 10:51:09 PM
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Thanks. I'll keep thinking about these things...
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Post #384,319
12/17/13 2:01:07 AM
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'it's not persuasive' ... ... ...
Guess this is bound to be lengthy as I don't lightly question your judgment: only.. heavily,
Apparently you do not accept the thesis that the corruption is everywhere and that the sign of the first derivative is an obvious [+].
Don't recall your reflections upon Soo, the creature of the Cheney Shogunate-or-by-any-other-soubriquet, who: gamed the pseudo-science of The Law (as cynically as the iconic son arrested for killing parents--who then asked for clemency because he was an orphan.) He was asked to define 'torture' -vs- what activities were already in play. He invented some disingenuous rationales; ultimately he rationalized the status-quo. Unarguable Torture ensued, all 'legal-via-his-Imprimatur'. (You have, now on several occasions praised-with-faint-damn similar actions as ~ [his] treatment was excessively harsh.
That UC-Berkeley sees fit to hire this pariah To Teach Law! surely fits somewhere on the as-yet-uncreated, National Corruption Thermometer and I wonder what your thoughts were, upon hearing of this academic Appointment.
There are, I deem (on such a graph) some points on a line (which limns stages of 'corruption') and perhaps a third dimension so as to include Depth and Breadth of 'corruption'.
(For that matter: Addington was also A Piece of Work--perfect foil for Cheney and his huge real-estate holdings ["Offices"] in the Pentagon.
Fortunately KDFC is doing The Ninth just next, thus we are both spared a vivisection upon your concept of 'The Mission' of NSA/CIA and their actuality--beyond the filters and CYA: as is endemic everywhere, especially when they are 'explaining their Mission to keep us all safe'--but it's classified about 'How?', about 'Safe from What?' and especially about: 'At What Cost?'==screw the $$ I mean the real Cost to us all.)
In view of your total-negativity about Snowden's imagined 'personality' [you unhesitatingly dub him coward] I am now not clear about how high a point on-that-chart must be? to exceed your own say, "measured-equanimity": some value on the abscissa.
That mark re Snowden, but also (the Depth part?) a level re the trickle-down corruption whereby a place like UCB offers? nay grants a position in which Soo may pass-on his methods for gaming the complete pseudo-science of the law: calling this "Teaching Law".
You always earn points for calm recitation of the factors in most of these issues that impinge upon Â
Oh, Say: "What sort of country is One worth personally-fighting-for? Perhaps you do have a mark that exceeds 'excessively harsh' and which would demand your taking an open stand: Against 'X' or a series of X-like actions noticed. But you have not tipped your hand where?/if? Any thing next.. might upset your seeming perpetual reassurance that Â
NahhÂ
'X' isn't an indication that 'Y' is either corrupt or insane; these things happen in large bureaucracies and it'll all work out. Just elect better people and write regularly to your representatives and Â
Â
Maybe you prefer-Not to tip your hand, as is your call in any event. Unfortunately I have a lengthy List already, from my entire personal experience since I Saw Joe McCarthy get his head handed-to-him at the [Heh..] "Army-McCarthy Hearings". (That circus plus the Guts of Murrow and his cohorts FINALLY got that sociopath away from microphones.)
Thousands of lives were ruined by the effectiveness of his mindless paranoia/propaganda as limned Herr Göbbels' MO--to a fare-thee-well. Werd.
During those times I too heard a lot of 'equanimity..' There, there, it'll all blow over--just sign that Loyalty Oath thing; everybody does!you know.. Even though it is invalid as "a coerced-oath" IS! Etc. ad nauseum.
And I am sad to have to reveal that, I now have some doubts about your capacity ever to feel/then act-upon justifiable outrage, despite such acts occurring at a rate previously unimaginable: in This (or any sane 1st-World) Country. The huge acceleration Downward followed 9/11-Day immediately! As. If. Already. Outlined. (as was my take when Patriot Act sailed-thru with nary a Complaint from the subsidized Reps!)
Maybe you Can just suck-it-up and patiently await some beneficent phase to emanate--like a Compton-pair from a gamma?
(Betcha.. Pauling, Feynman, Bethe, Oppenheimer, *Ernst Kantorovich (UCB--tract superbly resisting Loyalty Oaths), Bertie Â
nor Karl Popper
--in these exact circumstances: would vote the Equanimity Ticket; what think?)
Hope you're right.. I just don't Think So because, if you have too-much 'company' out there? Â
Â
I have lived-through the apathy of my "countrymen" the. first. time. It Can't Happen Here happened. here. If Murrow and Welch [and a mere handful of et alia] had sucked-it-up--My Gramma might as well have been Sec. State.-via-proxy.
And we'd still be using punched-cards to do bizness arithmetic. I Won't see a full replay!--I'm gone from here at the next Inflection-point I'm smart enough to grok-to-Fullness.
Carrion.
And.. Ludwig's Ninth is ON! how appropriate fur 'die schlimmer zeit' Play..On..
* ya likes links; sometimes I gots links:
http://forum.iwethey...866?postid=224958
Source/Timeline:
http://sunsite.berke...elinesummary.html
(But that was the First-time around; our new 2.0-beta replay will be in HD/3D whether or not the 'revolution is televised'.)
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Post #384,334
12/17/13 11:41:41 AM
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Some answers.
I appreciate you (and Rand) taking the time on this. I'm sorry that my take seems so disappointing.
Don't recall your reflections upon Soo Yoo, the creature of the Cheney Shogunate-or-by-any-other-soubriquet, who: gamed the pseudo-science of The Law (as cynically as the iconic son arrested for killing parents--who then asked for clemency because he was an orphan.) He was asked to define 'torture' -vs- what activities were already in play. He invented some disingenuous rationales; ultimately he rationalized the status-quo. Unarguable Torture ensued, all 'legal-via-his-Imprimatur'. (You have, now on several occasions praised-with-faint-damn similar actions as ~ [his] treatment was excessively harsh.
That UC-Berkeley sees fit to hire this pariah To Teach Law! surely fits somewhere on the as-yet-uncreated, National Corruption Thermometer and I wonder what your thoughts were, upon hearing of this academic Appointment.
There are, I deem (on such a graph) some points on a line (which limns stages of 'corruption') and perhaps a third dimension so as to include Depth and Breadth of 'corruption'.
One of my comments on Yoo is here - http://forum.iwethey...iwt?postid=319951 Yoo was a monster. But if he hadn't written the memos, someone else would have. The result - the "torture memos" - was not in doubt under Bush.
I knew that commenting on Manning's treatment was treading on thin ice - there's no good way to comment on it without it sounding like I'm justifying his treatment. I was trying to summarize what the judge said - http://www.npr.org/b...r-bradley-manning
At a pretrial hearing Tuesday at Fort Meade in Maryland, a military judge ruled that the Army private accused of leaking a mass of classified documents to the website WikiLeaks was subjected to illegal pretrial punishment while being held in a military prison.
Col. Denise Lind found that during the nine months Pfc. Bradley Manning spent in solitary confinement in a Marine Corps brig in Quantico, Va., the treatment he received was "more rigorous than necessary." She credited a total of 112 days toward any prison sentence Manning receives if convicted. (More from The Associated Press here.)
Ashton continues:
And I am sad to have to reveal that, I now have some doubts about your capacity ever to feel/then act-upon justifiable outrage, despite such acts occurring at a rate previously unimaginable: in This (or any sane 1st-World) Country. The huge acceleration Downward followed 9/11-Day immediately! As. If. Already. Outlined. (as was my take when Patriot Act sailed-thru with nary a Complaint from the subsidized Reps!)
Maybe you Can just suck-it-up and patiently await some beneficent phase to emanate--like a Compton-pair from a gamma?
Sorry. I don't see that NSA's activities themselves as being in any way comparable to Yoo's and Bush's trashing of the Geneva Conventions, Habeas Corpus, the 4th Amendment, the abuses in the Patriot Act, etc. I don't view the NSA's activities as being part of some "Deep State" that is repressing us, etc., etc. I just don't.
The NSA's job is to collect information and signals intelligence outside the US. It's been doing it for over 60 years. The trumped-up outrage that they're doing their job under a Democratic President is something that won't make me get out of the boat ( http://www.imdb.com/.../tt0078788/quotes ). YMMV.
The NSA needs robust oversight because of the potential for abuse. As does the FBI, ICE, DEA, and just about any 3-letter initialism you can think of. Too many in Congress aren't doing their jobs on this and too many other issues.
I think Franken's take on this is about right. http://www.huffingto...sa_n_3423413.html
"I can assure you that this isn't about spying on the American people," said Franken, who is a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee. "I have a high level of confidence that this is used ... to protect us, and I know that it has been successful in preventing terrorism."
Franken told WCCO he had been briefed on the controversial program and believed Snowden should be investigated for leaking sensitive documents.
Though he defended the program, Franken is also advocating for increased transparency. He's part of a bipartisan group of senators now pushing a bill to declassify secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) surveillance rulings.
The bill, introduced on Tuesday, would declassify legal opinions that have been used to justify the NSA's broad surveillance programs.
FWIW.
HTH a little.
I think I'm about done on this topic.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #384,336
12/17/13 4:14:34 PM
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Agreed.. our laundry-lists are similar enough.
We differ upon the say, degree-of-cleanliness?? we dare expect/Ought to expect from The Machine which regulates the wash-rinse-repeat cycles
--and mangles the clothes, turns everything brown (but calls it 'white') with no warranty-repair.
{Recall?--when's the last time Muricans recalled a Pol?}
We now return to our previous program:
Expecting Nothing guarantees, at least, that there shall never be disappointment when the wash is regularly ruined.
30
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Post #384,301
12/16/13 9:46:52 PM
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"Snowden is a coward."
Tell me honestly, Scott: would you flee the country in order to evade the physical and psychological strictures to which Manning has been subjected? I would, in a New York second. Ought the Volk who sensibly skipped out of Germany before the Third Reich battened down all the hatches have courageously stuck around to face the Wagnerian music?
This is a weird blind spot you have. The more I learn about Snowden's revelations, the more I am inclined to to think he deserves a Nobel Peace Prize above (or perhaps following) federal prosecution. I'm serious. Read the referenced essay. No amount of imagined "security" is worth the trashing of our Constitutional protections that the Deep State is undertaking. Anything Snowden does to bring the Deep State down is worthy of our applause. I'm far less worried about the Caliphate than I am about the Deep State.
Fuck this notion that "we have to surrender some liberty to keep ourselves safe." It should be "let's surrender some safety to keep ourselves free."
Wake up, Scott.
cordially,
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Post #384,302
12/16/13 9:48:21 PM
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"let's surrender some safety to keep ourselves free." yup
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
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Post #384,306
12/16/13 10:14:17 PM
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"let's surrender some guns to keep ourselves free."
hmmm.
--
greg@gregfolkert.net
"No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." --Stanislaw Jerzy Lec
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Post #384,308
12/16/13 10:18:19 PM
12/16/13 10:18:35 PM
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so when are you turning yours in?
oh wait, you want the other guy to be free. Got it
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Edited by boxley
Dec. 16, 2013, 10:18:35 PM EST
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Post #384,314
12/16/13 11:31:39 PM
12/16/13 11:36:46 PM
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So giving up your safety (aka guns)...
isn't what you were talking about, to be free?
I'm *SHOCKED* **SHOCKED** I tell you!!!1!1ONE!!
Of all the people... *SHOCKED* **SHOCKED**
--
greg@gregfolkert.net
"No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." --Stanislaw Jerzy Lec
And to really be honest, I don't care how many guns you have. As long as they are secured in such a way that intentional (or unintentional) use by anyone other than you is 100% not possible. Got it? (I seriously doubt that though, you myopic **grumble**)
Edited by folkert
Dec. 16, 2013, 11:32:00 PM EST
Edited by folkert
Dec. 16, 2013, 11:34:31 PM EST
Edited by folkert
Dec. 16, 2013, 11:36:46 PM EST
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Post #384,315
12/17/13 12:02:20 AM
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why? I know yours are not
they are probably locked in a gun safe just like Ms Lanza had
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
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Post #384,316
12/17/13 12:04:29 AM
12/17/13 12:05:32 AM
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Nope. Of course you don't read for comprehension.
And you'll never know what hit you in the chest either.
--
greg@gregfolkert.net
"No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." --Stanislaw Jerzy Lec
Edited by folkert
Dec. 17, 2013, 12:05:32 AM EST
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Post #384,311
12/16/13 10:48:56 PM
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On Manning.
http://www.npr.org/b...r-bradley-manning
At a previous hearing last year, Manning's lawyer, David E. Coombs, described the treatment he received like that of a "zoo animal." Manning also took the stand during that hearing and described contemplating suicide and making a noose while being held in Kuwait.
(See the original for embedded links.)
Manning's treatment was excessively harsh. But he was on suicide watch for a reason.
He was mistreated while in captivity, it was excessively harsh, and it was uncalled for. But the hyperbole about it ("worse than death row") was too often over the top.
One doesn't "joke" about suicide in jail.
No doubt I'm not expressing this well, but I hope you get my point.
Snowden isn't going to be "tortured" or "disappeared" any more than Pollard or Walker or any of the other infamous US intelligence officers who gave up secrets. After his trial, if he's convicted, he'll probably be out in ~ 30 years like them, too.
We'll have to agree to disagree about the rest. ;-)
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #384,312
12/16/13 10:55:10 PM
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pollard is out? thats news to me
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
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Post #384,313
12/16/13 11:00:51 PM
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He's approaching 30 years.
http://en.wikipedia....and_incarceration
He began his "life" sentence March 4, 1987.
The Bureau of Prisons (BOP) projects his release date as November 21, 2015.[52]
According to a Haaretz article by Amir Oren, if Pollard is released in 2015, he will be escorted by FBI agents to the gates of the Israeli Embassy in Washington, D.C. and transferred to Israeli custody.[53] However, a Jerusalem Post editorial states that if Pollard is paroled, the US government will still be legally able to place restrictions on his freedom of movement, travel, speech, employment, and domicile for 15 years.[54]
HTH.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #388,094
3/31/14 10:19:49 PM
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Noises about him possibly being released soon.
http://www.nytimes.c...ml?hpw&rref=world
No decision has been made yet on Mr. Pollard, said one official, who asked not to be identified because the person was discussing private deliberations. A decision to release Mr. Pollard would be in the context of a broader agreement to extend the talks between the Israelis and Palestinians, officials said, and would require President ObamaÂs approval.
But time and politics have coalesced to make his release more plausible this time. Intelligence officials are no longer likely to object as fiercely to freeing Mr. Pollard, who is 59, said to be ailing and would be eligible for parole in November 2015. And his release could provide the Obama administration with a way to coax additional concessions from Israel as it pursues a broader peace accord, which Mr. Kerry and Mr. Obama have made a centerpiece of their diplomacy.
If it actually helps Bibi make a sensible agreement and ends settlement building so that negotiations can actually take place, then it would be a good trade. If it's just the first of a continuing set of demands from us for Israel to do what it must to have peace, well, ...
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #403,721
7/28/15 2:50:22 PM
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Pollard to be out on parole in November.
NYTimes: By MICHAEL D. SHEAR JULY 28, 2015
WASHINGTON — Jonathan J. Pollard, who was sentenced to life in prison in 1985 for passing classified documents to the Israeli government, will be released on parole in November after 30 years in prison, a government panel decided on Tuesday.
Mr. Pollard’s lawyers announced the decision of the United States Parole Commission on Tuesday afternoon, and officials at the Department of Justice confirmed that Mr. Pollard had been granted parole.
Mr. Pollard, 60, had been scheduled for mandatory parole in November, but could have been kept in prison for years longer if the United States government had objected to his release, citing concerns about an ongoing threat to national security.
Last week, officials for the Department of Justice signaled that they would not object to Mr. Pollard’s release if the United States Parole Commission determined that he should leave the prison in North Carolina where he is being held.
[...] Cheers, Scott.
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Post #406,401
11/20/15 10:09:30 PM
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Pollard released today. 5 years parole in US.
NationalMemo: He was released early Friday from a federal prison in North Carolina and quickly headed to New York, where he was set up for electronic monitoring as required under his parole, according to spokesmen for the Federal Bureau of Prisons and U.S. Marshals Service.
“I’m sorry, I can’t comment on anything today,” the 61-year-old Pollard told a swarm of reporters as he exited the courthouse in Manhattan after being fitted for the monitoring. His lawyers also declined comment.
Pollard’s lawyers filed a petition for a writ of habeas corpus in federal court in New York on Friday, seeking to rescind the parole conditions, calling them “onerous and oppressive.”
Pollard will be required to wear an electronic bracelet so his movements can be monitored at all times. His computers and those of his employer will be subjected to “unfettered monitoring and inspection,” his lawyers said.
As part of his parole, Pollard must remain in the United States for five years, although his lawyers have asked President Barack Obama to allow him to go to Israel immediately.
A U.S. official said Obama did not have any plans to alter the terms of his parole to allow Pollard leave the United States. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #384,335
12/17/13 11:45:09 AM
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Fair Trial. Heh. Like the Rosenbergs? Sacco and Vanzetti?
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