If it wasn't done in malice or to reward enemies...

Post #377,788 by Another Scott 7/9/13 1:34:16 PM Reply	If it wasn't done in malice or to reward enemies... Prosecutors have lots of discretion, even under the Espionage Act (and he didn't have to be charged under that). I would think that his actions would be viewed very differently if he had stayed unknown, toiling away in Hawaii, or if he had mailed things to several US papers and then called a press conference, than the way they're viewed by many after he ran to Hong Kong, etc., etc. http://seattletimes....edleakstrial.html I can't crawl into Snowden's head, and we all have different takes on this. Your knowledge and personal feelings about what went on in the past WRT the CIA and so forth is more intense than mine. I, maybe naively, believe that many past abuses have been reigned in. But I take very little of what he says at face value. I think he's a smart guy and he is worried about civil liberties, but I don't trust his interpretation of what is legal and what is being done to Americans in general. His actions make me question his motives, and honestly make me question his understanding of reality. He seems to fit many of DRL's old comments about narcissists... Of course, narcissists aren't necessarily wrong, but one has to be careful around them. ;-) We'll see how it turns out. Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,793 by boxley 7/9/13 1:52:13 PM Reply	stayed in his barracks like manning? that didnt turn out wel Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,796 by Another Scott 7/9/13 1:58:33 PM Reply	The trial's not over; and military is different than civil.
Post #377,821 by crazy 7/9/13 7:36:23 PM Reply	You are so full of sh*t It's amazing. Be an apologist with blinders all you want, but the bottom line is, they are spying on us, and no matter what you say, it doesn't change the truth.
Post #378,871 by Another Scott 8/6/13 2:22:35 PM Reply	Soonergrunt's been watching the trial. http://www.balloon-j...loon-jobs-thread/ On a side note, Judge (COL) Lind has approved at least part of the Defense motion to combine charges for sentencing purposes, and reduced PFC ManningÂs punitive exposure from a maximum of 136 years to a new maximum of 90 years. Many of the people IÂve talked to expect a sentence in the 10 to 20 year range. Testimony is continuing today with more personnel from the State Department. FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #378,875 by mmoffitt 8/6/13 4:49:56 PM Reply	Perhaps a Re-Education Camp is in order, yes?
Post #378,886 by Ashton 8/6/13 7:07:40 PM Reply	Practically a reprieve, eh? (+ a Larry Summers quip) Lessee: at 120ish and with no 'retirement' accumulating 'during'.. He and his companion seeing-eye dog can push their purloined shopping cart amidst the ruins of DC, hoping for a few crumbs from the Mad Max Corps of de-Engineers --well, if They're still around, even. [er, this-all IS Theatre, ain't it--still??] Tragedy Comedy Tragico-comic Comedo-tragic Existential Fantasy Rap-doxology . . . and, Ooh--somewhat off-topic but in same thread, this gem EconWatcher says: August 6, 2013 at 2:18 pm Maybe I missed it, but I havenÂt seen a thread to complain about Obama pushing Larry Summers as Fed chair. So IÂm forced to use this one. Seriously, Larry Summers may be the biggest jerk in Washington. A bold statement, I know, but I think his record warrants it. HeÂs a classic VSP. Often wrong but never in doubt. He managed to dis just about everyone who was more prescient than he was leading into the financial crisis (a large crowd). HeÂs one of the geniuses who thought it was a great idea to leave credit default swaps and other derivatives entirely unregulated. He has to be one of the greatest recent examples of failing upwards. And heÂs just temperamentally unsuited for any job that requires more diplomatic skills than a junkyard dog. For better or worse, markets follow every syllable that the Fed chair says, and can go haywire from the slightest inaptly worded statement. Does this sound like a job for Larry Summers? Larry frickinÂ Summers? What is Obama thinking? (Nice to see someone else sharin the Luv for this reptile.. who just may get the gig, anyway, since it's all surreal.)
Post #378,888 by Another Scott 8/6/13 7:43:48 PM Reply	We'll see how both turn out. I still think Obama will appoint Yellen. Why? A couple of reasons. 1) Remember when 'everyone' was convinced that he was going to appoint Susan Rice as Secretary of State when Hillary left? How he had to because he defended her so strongly? I think Obama is defending Summers in the same spirit but that doesn't mean he has a lock on FedHead. 2) Remember when Obama was criticized for not having more appointments for women and minorities in his 2nd term? He said something like, "it's early and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised...". He knows that passing over Yellen will look very bad. I haven't kept up with the Manning trial in detail and don't have a strong feeling of what sort of sentence he will get. It seems as though the judge is trying to be fair. John Walker got life but may be released in 2015 (30 years). Jonathan Pollard got life but may be released in 2015 (28+ years). I would be very surprised if Manning got more than them and 10 years sounds sufficient to me at the moment. FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,814 by Ashton 7/9/13 4:08:56 PM Reply	About that head-crawling thing.. Scott, you are a nice person--neither sarcasm nor cynicism remotely intended in that comment. I (or anyone not-you) can have no possible way of knowing the limits of Your imagination, that is to say --the extent that you Can..? imagine those thoughts we usually summarize as: The Dark Side. Most of our hints re. Others' Dark Sides come from fiction [ Smiley's People etc. etc. for the tales told by virtuosi of the calibre of an Alec Guinness (in the PBS version.) ] (There have been n books since Abu Ghraib, one of which is, American Torture [Michael Otterman] from ~'07. Recall skimming that at local lib. I may.. have first seen something on Mitrione in that, re. his 'teachings' in Uruguay [I tend to recall odd-names + odd-countries better than most other things.] This man was quite a Piece of Work--I conclude.) Point is: I've found in my travels that some folks simply Cannot (actually!) "imagine" the depravity that, for some others is a constant companion. I'm betting that this 28 yo fledgling do-gooder just Maybe Can extrapolate from--either within his own psyche, or via vivid tales from others: the now proven depravity of a Soo--and all who sail in her--and all the hangers-on who Love playing Spook. And he { wisely } fears that he wouldn't survive, either: A) The medieval contents + inhuman isolation 23/7 of the modern transistorized Bastilles of the US or, B) more directly, and an equivalent set of horrors: much sooner vengeance; sooner, but maybe not-so-quick, see? Do you See? C) Likely there IS no C: "serve time as a normal prisoner"--whatever That means in '13, amidst the highest %incarcerated of any Rich country extant. And angling for yet more funds. Lastly, if you imagine that the Labeled-core missions of the NSA and the [n+50ish?] 'agencies' so secret that their Names are [Classified] ... are All ye Need to Know about 'operations' and actual activities within / under the aegis of these Congressionally funded orgs? Then I respectfully suggest that you have yet to gauge the depravity of Messrs. Soo/Cheney et al, and the deeper 'capabilities' of some of their 'technicians'. Who Love their 'work'. I'm willing to bet that these and (probably better-informed) other examples of The Trade are known to this young person, and that his imagination is likely more experience-based than yours. So I'll cut him more slack than you are wont to do, here. He is not worried about the 'legal'/or its pseudo-logic; I believe he worries about the utterly irrational.. vengeful possibilities. (I Know.. what I Would/would-not Do, were I a candidate to be on any One of those minions' laser-dot sights. And assuredly it would not be to rely, as far as I could throw a cubic foot of depleted-Uranium--upon the Murican 'justice' system 2013.) As Obama hews increasingly towards bot-like behavior as results, de-facto, in (as Rand commented) a policy which equals==blow a Whistle? Get max-slammer-time, no matter what--BECAUSE you crossed >ME<, you.. >you< QUESTIONED MY AUTHORITY, you disgusting retread '60s-Hippie scum ... As He Goes There, I Go: Okay, mofo, you have exceeded Geo. Bush-Cheney-light and are now fully-into [Whatever words describe the asymptote of] accelerating totalitarian Uniformity/homogenization of the masses], via "fine weaseling Words" followed by Actions precisely emulating George W. ['I don't believe in 'Nation-building'.] Whatever fanciful musings attended BHO's near-coronation-Then: and the vacillations, unfathomable reticence /inaction in face of far-Rightful, premeditated obstructionism--Successfully Carried Out! --the sigma of that-all, probably means that No One next, with anything like an educated-Intelligence (?) shall ever get within spitting-distance of that Oval place, for what..? a generation? (If the place is even recognizable in that near-future.) Sorry, but I too must demur: simply, IMO, the kid means Not-to get gang-raped and eviscerated/conveniently anonymously. the %population in US jails, the %pop [at astronomical annual $Bs] now employed at-high-salaries in 'security'Tvia any other rubric --these constitute so obvious a trend that you don't need to read It Can't Happen Here (as most in US have not.) Migawd it's 77 fucking-years-Old! It's Happening Here, now and next. (Who Cares about that hoary ancient-wisdom stuff any more?) And there's no video [yet..] Now.. were I a Banker who had created $Bs of recursively-worthless Junk CDOs / ruined many lives ... ¡No es una probléma! er, USA.. USA.. USA.. USA..
Post #377,823 by Another Scott 7/9/13 7:55:15 PM Reply	Thanks, but... I've seen my share of the dark side of humanity, too. I may be too trusting, but I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. :-) (No slight intended.) I have no illusions about how the technology and the collected information could be misused. And I have no illusions that there are people at Ft. Meade and elsewhere who have broken the rules and spied on people (or tried to) in illegal ways at some time or other. I just don't see that it could happen the way Greenwald and Snowden describe given the limitations of current technology and the vast mountains of data out there. If you have a few minutes, look at some of the comments at Balloon-Juice. I find these compelling - YMMV, of course :-) http://www.balloon-j.../#comment-4525827 http://www.balloon-j.../#comment-4525855 http://www.balloon-j.../#comment-4525896 That strikes me as the reality of the situation. If enough people get riled up about this NSA system, it will be changed. It would be nice if the changes were a reasonable reaction to concerns based on facts and actual abuses or short-comings. But if too many people get riled up about things that aren't facts or aren't abuses and it causes changes that make things worse but satisfy the screaming, then Snowden's and Greenwald's actions will have hurt their cause, and the cause of everyone who cares about sensible policies. As Martin said in the first link, to control the ability of governments to collect private information, the only solution is policy. There is no technological fix. And policy depends on trust: citizens have to believe that the policy is being followed and that the policy is fair. If the policy is sensible but people don't believe it, then it won't work. So we need to know what the policy is and have a sensible debate about whether it needs to be changed or scrapped. But even with good policies, there are times when the bad people on the inside will only be stopped after the fact. I'm not naive about that. Taking at face value the comments of a young guy who has had wild swings of opinion ("people who disclose classified information should be shot in the nuts"/"I don't believe I have done anything wrong"), who vastly inflate their own importance ("I made close to $200k a year"/"I could wiretap the President of the United States"), and so forth, is a step I'm unwilling to take. He may simply be a flawed messenger, but his story about the nearly all-powerful NSA spying on everyone for $20M a year (the PRISM slide) doesn't pass the smell test for me. But I'm repeating myself. :-) You've worked in a high-tech publicly-funded organization. You know how slowly things move; you know that most people there don't see the big picture and that nobody knows how all the pieces work together (let alone some young guy who's been there a few months). You know how easy it is for PowerPoint presentations to obfuscate and to be misinterpreted even when no deception is intended (Tufte's examples). There's lots of reasons why Snowden's story could be different from reality. Maybe I'm wrong and Snowden and Greenwald have done a great service to us and the NSA has been spying on all of us individually and S&G will have managed to stop us all from being rounded up and sent to Guantanamo were we to step out of line. Maybe. We'll see. Thanks again. :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,825 by Ashton 7/9/13 10:12:01 PM 7/9/13 10:40:11 PM Reply	'Twixt the 3, plus other samples: concur on several Indeed the bloon-juice folk have pretty-well parsed the range of possibilities. Probably the most incisive word found here--Martin's policy comment--is a large clue re. the achievable limits of public confidence -vs- effectiveness for the snoops. And yes, this guy Is unlovely--at 29 he should have outgrown the salary-brag and the wiretap-the-prez ploy. It's possible that he fits your emphases, and was? is? more interested in Self-adoration than in awakening the slumbering. OTOH: it looks--already--as if the Play has, maybe for the first Serious-time: successfully galvanized an authentic effort (just promised/not yet actual) of BHO et al to spell-out the Plan, the trade-offs.. via Public airing/contemplation of all the factors (amidst that tiny minority who ever delve at all.) 'We' don't Do that very well, if at all-- but as with the query of the US Prez [ Failsafe ] of the Premiere, after agreeing to nuke NYC: ..unless you can think that the gesture alone is.. sufficient???. (We know how that went.) This factoid alone, IMO can somewhat ameliorate his insouciance or vanity--perhaps enough that, along with this Public disclosure, there just might be tacked-on: Something intelligent re. Actual pukka Whistle-blowers, acknowledging that--in a society already infinitely-complex, homo-sap error and duplicity Shall Occur Regularly. ie We Need those suckers, even the unlovely ones. So then--there should be Publicly-discussed New RulesÂ on this agenda, concerning the Next {inevitable} Leaks. As it's a crap-shoot whether this guy's Valuable contribution outweighs his faults [what 'New' intel did he give the Russo-Chinese former-axis, of any consequence??] I declare then: it's a tie! re. what the fate of this guy 'ought' to be / (were there any Real 'justice' remaining in our current System.) Just another Morality Play, I wot. Ed: Bonus! from the firedoggers.. Denunciation of the Firebaggers and Shaming of the Obots Is that from The Rite of Spring? Edited by Ashton July 9, 2013, 10:40:11 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #377,826 by boxley 7/9/13 10:19:51 PM Reply	hurt what cause pass a law that if you dig into peoples private shit without a warrant you go to jail. Identify a suspect, convince a judge you have cause then ask for private data to be collected from the companies that hold the data. Done. If your argument is that several thousand people will die in attacks, thats the price of not living with the stazi police state. You do realize that the FUCKING GERMANS have a problem with what we are doing to our own people? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,836 by drook 7/10/13 9:58:50 AM Reply	LRPD I posted a little while back fits here I'd rather be wrong occasionally than live in fear and be right occasionally. -- Drew

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