Snowden: 8 key quotes

Post #377,735 by Ashton 7/8/13 5:06:15 PM Reply	Snowden: 8 key quotes from his video (I haven't seen yet.) http://www.salon.com...emium%29_7_30_110 Clearly a suspicious character: Talks in complete, grammatical sentences. A disaffected once-youth, who declined to Join the Club he-was-already-in. Refuses to acknowledge that Power==Wisdom, as he was informed to be the case. We must Exterminate!.. Exterminate!.. Exterminate!.. It's 'the only way to be sure'.
Post #377,740 by Another Scott 7/8/13 7:06:29 PM Reply	Meh. Even if everything he says in the various interviews about what the NSA is doing is true, it is likely not the full story. His actions, in running away to China then Russia, among other things, are not those of a whistle-blower who is confident of the righteousness of his cause. They're the actions of someone who is not willing to stand up and accept the consequences of his actions. True whistleblowers in the US don't run away. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,742 by jake123 7/8/13 8:01:37 PM Reply	That was before torture and indefinite detention were policy
Post #377,744 by hnick 7/8/13 8:37:40 PM Reply	not to mention unsanctioned assassination...
Post #377,745 by jake123 7/8/13 8:48:46 PM Reply	sensory deprivation and solitary confinement....
Post #377,747 by Another Scott 7/8/13 9:03:07 PM Reply	Snowden's a civilian.
Post #377,748 by jake123 7/8/13 9:11:43 PM Reply	So's Richard Reid.
Post #377,750 by Another Scott 7/8/13 9:16:14 PM Reply	Not domestic espionage or leak.
Post #377,746 by Another Scott 7/8/13 9:01:30 PM Reply	Hyperbole much you two? 2008 - http://intellit.musk...lder/china08.html 2010 - http://intellit.musk...ssianspies10.html 2012 - http://www.nytimes.c...ak-case.html?_r=0 The US doesn't drop cruise missiles or torture people in domestic espionage or leak cases. And being after 2001 and the Patriot Act doesn't change that. Snowden's caterwauling about someone from the US government putting a hit on him is another indication that he is delusional, IMHO. YMMV. Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,749 by boxley 7/8/13 9:13:06 PM Reply	even a live boy eh? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,751 by jake123 7/8/13 9:46:27 PM Reply	I think it's really clear that Americans don't really grok just how badly the rest of the world sees you now. The USA's moral authority is gone... gone for at least a generation. You guys all seem to think that the legalistic little games you play among yourselves mean anything to the people who don't get even the bare legal protection from the USA's authority machinery that you citizens have. You're wrong. Even among yourselves there's a set of rules for your elites and another set of rules for everyone else. For the rest of us, the only rule is that they USA will do what it wants to, and if that means killing whole families that get in the way, that's just how it is. Let's not forget that the reaction to most of the stuff that's been revealed to you by the USA powers that be has been a big meh when it comes to non-Americans... and the simple truth is that most Americans don't know most of what's going on, because you've got a glittering entertainment industry known as "journamalism" that solely exists to make sure it never really sinks in so that your elites can continue to profit.
Post #377,753 by Another Scott 7/8/13 10:31:59 PM Reply	Yes, we have big blinders. Yes, we have a different set of rules for outside the borders than inside. And yes, too often we get on our high horses and preach to others while ignoring the beams in our own eyes. But little of the stuff Snowden has released is new in its broad outlines. The documents apparently fill in a few more details, but that's about it. But in the process he broke his oath to protect classified information, and he ran away to our adversaries with other classified information while playing "I will not hide myself because I know I have not done anything wrong / it's not about me" martyr. The revelations were much more startling in the Church Committee hearings in the 1970s and in The Puzzle Palace in 1982 - http://www.amazon.co...on/dp/0140067485/ The NSA's core job is to monitor communications outside the US and crossing the borders - they say so right on their web page: http://www.nsa.gov/ Our Mission The NSA/CSS core missions are to protect U.S. national security systems and to produce foreign signals intelligence information. Snowden's suddenly being Shocked, Shocked about the NSA monitoring everything crossing the border is disingenuous. This stuff has been widely known since the 1970s at the latest. FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,765 by boxley 7/9/13 8:48:34 AM Reply	ahem, note the "outside of the borders" storing metadata from all verizon callers kinda exceeds that detail a tad Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,766 by Another Scott 7/9/13 9:09:19 AM Reply	They can't use Americans' data without a warrant. HTH.
Post #377,770 by pwhysall 7/9/13 9:48:39 AM Reply	s/can't/can't in theory/
Post #377,773 by boxley 7/9/13 10:28:35 AM Reply	wrong, ana analyst can choose to check the data Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,775 by Another Scott 7/9/13 11:06:19 AM Reply	Re: wrong, ana analyst can choose to check the data http://en.wikipedia....es_to_disclosures FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,784 by boxley 7/9/13 12:32:46 PM Reply	live boy, etc Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,786 by Another Scott 7/9/13 12:54:26 PM Reply	More words please. If you're insinuating blackmail, well illegal actions can happen no matter what the law is. If you're saying that I support authority for anything short of a "dead girl/live boy" situation, you're wrong. If not, more words please. Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,787 by boxley 7/9/13 1:26:28 PM Reply	sounds like you would excuse the live boy scenario interview with ex nsa analyst http://dailycaller.c...william-binney/4/ Binney: ThatÂs my point. When you ask how much damage these leaks have done to our capability, theyÂve actually done absolutely nothing. The terrorists were monitoring all of this information anyway, so they had a pretty good idea of what was being collected. So, who are we keeping this from? ItÂs not the terrorists. We are really keeping it from the American public. Because thatÂs who theyÂre collecting data about. And thatÂs who theyÂre keeping it secret from. The terrorists already knew all this stuff. I just want America back, so what if malcontents kill a few hundred every year Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,789 by Another Scott 7/9/13 1:37:34 PM Reply	Back to when? The NSA was created in 1949. They've been doing this stuff (collecting foreign signals intelligence) - it's part of their charter - for 64 years. What America do you want to go back to? Seriously. This stuff isn't going away as long as the NSA and related agencies exist. More oversight and transparency is better, but the need is there and there will be people doing it. Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,792 by boxley 7/9/13 1:50:42 PM Reply	foreign, get them out of the domestic pool Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,794 by Another Scott 7/9/13 1:57:48 PM Reply	How? They say they do that now. Again, even if they keep 5 years of records of phone calls in the US, they can't tie that information to a particular US person without a warrant. And they can't get a warrant unless it's related to a foreign intelligence investigation (with some exceptions - like the Boston Marathon bombings, apparently). How would they do what you suggest differently than what they say they're doing now? Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,797 by boxley 7/9/13 2:11:56 PM Reply	rm -rf /domestic_data_collection Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,798 by Another Scott 7/9/13 2:12:21 PM Reply	You're just trolling now.
Post #377,800 by boxley 7/9/13 2:17:05 PM Reply	nope, remove all domestic data from their servers send all the police swat teams to afghanistan to give real soldiers a break. If they dont want to go, put on a blue suit, take some ridealongs with real police officers then get them on patrol. Put real strong doors on the cockpits and send the tsa home. We are spending billions to give the elites tools to suppress us. Let them go back to stealing the old fashioned way. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,801 by rcareaga 7/9/13 2:31:00 PM Reply	See, Scott, now you've got me agreeing ...with boxley. It is foolish for us to leave all this apparatus of oppression lying around. Even had it been used responsibly to date—HA!—it will inevitably be abused more and more going forward. Will we get to outright Stalinism? I don't know, but it should be troubling to all that we've approached as closely as we have these early innings to High Brezhnevism. It's not going to be easy—it may not be possible—to back this truck up the hill, but anyone with eyes to see has to have an idea of what's waiting for us at the bottom of the road. I don't want to go there. cordially,
Post #377,803 by Another Scott 7/9/13 2:34:47 PM Reply	I know the arguments. I just don't see it. :-)
Post #377,807 by rcareaga 7/9/13 2:48:46 PM Reply	I hope I'm being unwontedly gloomy ...and that your own sunny optimism proves the cannier read. Doubt it, though. cordially,
Post #377,802 by Another Scott 7/9/13 2:33:57 PM Reply	How? Omar from Upper Volta has a Verizon phone. Is he a US person or not? How about if he's on a travel visa visiting the US and gets a cheap phone? How about if he takes that Verizon phone to Canada. How can you tell before-hand whether he's a US person or not? 325.86.998.123 (or any other example bogus IP number you choose) - is that a US person or not? How can you guarantee that it's not domestic? If you say to the NSA - "you cannot collect any domestic information, not even for a millisecond" - you effectively prevent them from doing their job. Might as well close the place down. That's fine if you want to close the NSA down, but that's not fine if you expect the NSA to collect foreign intelligence. The NSA having a database of US metadata that is not tied to individuals is not suppressing me. YMMV. Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,806 by drook 7/9/13 2:41:43 PM Reply	Technical question How much of the data going in and out of the country still does it by wire (or glass) and how much by satellite? Once upon a time you didn't call Europe without going over a transatlantic cable. Seems pretty straightforward to limit their access only to the points where something leaves the country. Yes, this leaves cases of foreigners here, or Americans abroad, but it gets us a hell of a lot closer to their documented mandate. -- Drew
Post #377,809 by Another Scott 7/9/13 2:52:34 PM Reply	They seem to monitor all kinds of EM radiation. Maps. http://www.nsa.gov/sigint/faqs.shtml 1. What is Signals Intelligence? SIGINT involves collecting foreign intelligence from communications and information systems and providing it to customers across the U.S. government, such as senior civilian and military officials. They then use the information to help protect our troops, support our allies, fight terrorism, combat international crime and narcotics, support diplomatic negotiations, and advance many other important national objectives. NSA/CSS collects SIGINT from various sources, including foreign communications, radar and other electronic systems. This information is frequently in foreign languages and dialects, is protected by codes and other security measures, and involves complex technical characteristics. NSA/CSS needs to collect and understand the information, interpret it, and get it to our customers in time for them to take action. Our workforce is deeply skilled in a wide range of highly technical fields that allow them to this work, and they develop and employ state-of-the-art tools and systems that are essential to success in today's fast-changing communications and information environment. Our researchers are working constantly to help us anticipate and prepare for future developments. Some internet connectivity maps are here - http://www3.nd.edu/~...y/gallery_old.htm China tries to monitor everything on their network. They don't succeed. http://www.theatlant...een-reset/306650/ My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,943 by Ashton 7/11/13 11:51:22 PM Reply	Nice piece by Fallows.. And the last ¶ kinda puts in perspective those Other Great Questions. (No guesstimated Answers to any of those: a wise choice, I wot. But that was in 2008, Are we There yet?) Got one here, though, 'Eat the Rich' / It's the only way to be Sure.
Post #377,808 by boxley 7/9/13 2:50:47 PM Reply	Re: How? cdma phones dont work elsewhere. If Omar is traveling in canada who gives a rats ass? If Omar is plotting to do bad things to americans he will be ratted out in canada or be made to smuggle dope from mexico. Who cares. If Omar makes it here and starts running amok hopefully a pissed off citizen can put paid to his anguish. Why not, we do it for the criminals. http://www.nydailyne...article-1.1380615 Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,810 by Another Scott 7/9/13 3:00:42 PM Reply	Multiband phones are common. Verizon has them. What if Omar is on the border between the US and Canada? The point I'm trying to make is, there are complications introduced by modern communications that make deciding who is and who is not a "US person" simply by looking at metadata difficult. Someone anywhere in the world can use VPN or lots of other things to make it appear that they're somewhere else. AFAIK, anyone can get a virtual machine on Amazon's servers if they're willing to pay the price (or if not, there are certainly ways around whatever rules are in place). Are they a US person? How can you tell if you're just looking at metadata? The government and the NSA says they have rules and procedures in place to try to address those complications. We can choose to believe them or not, just like we can choose to believe Snowden and Greenwald or not. We can argue that more transparency and more restrictions are needed, or not. But I don't think we can say that the task that the NSA has is easy or that it is trivial to exclude information from US persons. That doesn't pass the simplest of tests, IMHO. I think I'm done for now. :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,811 by boxley 7/9/13 3:21:10 PM Reply	sawright, Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,956 by CRConrad 7/12/13 12:44:31 PM Reply	He "ran away to [y]our adversaries"? Which darn adversaries? If you have any adversaries, they can't be Russia or China; the Cold War is over. In stead, ever since your staunch ally Putin managed to conflate 9/11 with Chechnya in your War On Terrierism, he's been your BFF, not your "adversary"; and ever since you sold lock, stock and barrel -- plus the kitchen sink, your ass, and your soul -- to the Chinese, they're your owners, not your "adversaries". The only "adversaries" you have left at present are foes worthy of, oh, I dunno, Guatemala or Lithuania: North Korea, Venezuela, and Iran. But yes, with bullshit like this you are of course turning much of the civilsed world _into_ "adversaries"; dunno if we're quite there yet, though. Here's a hint for the meantime: Precisely that kind of overblown rhetoric -- He Is Not A Whistleblower Because He Divulged Secrets To Our Adversaries, And By The Way, He Is Not A Whistleblower Because That's Been Known Since The 1970's So It's Nothing New (See the tiniest bit of a contradiction there, do we?) -- is a big part of it. -- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi (Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
Post #377,960 by Another Scott 7/12/13 1:08:28 PM Reply	Shorthand. The USA and China have diverging interests in several areas (in some respects with North Korea, in some respects with Iran, international boundaries in sea lanes, etc.) The USA and Russia have diverging interests in several areas (in Syria and before that in Libya, natural gas, press and NGO freedom of operation in Russia, etc.) Yes, all countries have diverging interests, but it's a little more intense in those two cases. "Adversaries" may be too strong, but there is a great deal of tension in the relationships even if we don't come to blows. "If you owe the bank $1000, the bank owns you. But if you owe the bank $1,000,000, you own the bank." ;-) China needs to buy US bonds more than the US needs money from China - http://www.guardian....conomy-china-debt I think my arguments about Snowden's actions have been a bit more nuanced than your last paragraph, but readers can make up their own minds. I won't punish everyone by trying to go through them again. :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #378,010 by CRConrad 7/13/13 8:08:25 AM Reply	YOUR arguments, sure. But you're not the USA. You're a lot better than the administration at expressing nuances. Your country as a whole, that _is_ coming off pretty much as I compressed your arguments. (And also, of course, as an interfering overbearing bully and so on -- as usual. It's just getting to be too much of the usual.) -- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi (Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
Post #378,011 by Another Scott 7/13/13 8:21:09 AM Reply	Can't argue that.
Post #377,752 by rcareaga 7/8/13 10:25:19 PM Reply	It's rare that I disagree with you ...and along with Charlie Pierce I regard Snowden as something of a show pony, but with the example of Bradley Manning before him, he has a right not to rely on the humane solicitude of the US government. Moreover, I suspect that the USG is not monolithic, and that certain semiautonomous elements of the National Security State will occasionally scratch itches "with extreme prejudice." I think that in the smoke from the recent fiery death of journalist Michael Hastings there is a whiff of nastiness, and geez!—there were certainly a great number of highly convenient "suicides" over the course of the Cheney Shogunate. I'm as a rule allergic to conspiracy theories, but I think that Snowden would be a far greater fool than he already is were he to entrust himself to the measured mercies of the comically misnamed US "criminal justice system." Do you not doubt that there are powerful men in the National Security State who would regard Snowden's corpse as a salutary example to other data drones? An associate of mine once worked for a county district attorney. He told meÂand this is a sober character whose judgment I trust implicitlyÂthat very few prisoner "suicides" are suicides, and that many of these deaths occur at the behest of the "authorities." And we're just talking here about pissed-off deputy sheriffs, not pissed off deputy cabinet secretaries. Please don't be naive, Another Scott. cordially,
Post #377,755 by Another Scott 7/8/13 11:04:05 PM Reply	We'll see. Hastings was speeding and lost control of his car. Why? We don't know. The investigation supposedly will go on for another few weeks. If Hastings were to be offed by someone, it would have happened before his McChrystal piece was published - it makes no sense for it to have happened this late after his famous story. Snowden was a tiny fish. Nobody is going to risk decades in prison or worse to try to have him killed. If he were so important and dangerous that he needs to be killed, why would he have been able to sit around in a Hong Kong hotel room, giving interviews, for over two weeks? http://news.yahoo.co...en-000522295.html The all-powerful NSA knows everything about everyone, but it can't grab a guy in a hotel room who is giving interviews? It makes no sense. Of course foul play and abuse and murder has happened in US detention facilities. But it wouldn't happen to Snowden. First, he'll be in federal custody. Second, he's succeeded in making himself a celebrity, and all of the soap-opera aspects of it since he went public, will guarantee extreme public scrutiny of his treatment and the processes used to prosecute him. Federal law enforcement has civil service protections, and chain of command within agencies is very important. Eric Holder or James Clapper or whoever isn't going to be ordering some grunt officer with a gun to take Snowden out like something out of bad gangster movie. Of course, I may be wrong. We'll see. ;-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,757 by rcareaga 7/8/13 11:55:50 PM Reply	Re: We'll see. If Hastings were to be offed by someone, it would have happened before his McChrystal piece was published - it makes no sense for it to have happened this late after his famous story. To paraphrase one or another big-haired country-western singer: R-E-V-E-N-G-E. These things happen well down the food chain from Holder. Snowden might be a tiny fish, and I agree that killing him wouldn't be worthwhile, but having him spend the next four decades in a Supermax facility would certainly send a message to the next impudent contractor. I wish I could share your faith in the benign purpose of the National Security State. I lost it back when I came to understand that the accusations against Dan Mitrione, which I dismissed as a teenager back in 1970, were true. We are citizens of a predatory, absolutely immoral empire that has killed millions—mark that, millions—of foreign nationals since the end of the second world war. We are the scourge of the earth. We will richly deserve the judgment history will presently pass upon us. cordially,
Post #377,763 by Another Scott 7/9/13 8:14:30 AM Reply	Re: We'll see. Snowden might be a tiny fish, and I agree that killing him wouldn't be worthwhile, but having him spend the next four decades in a Supermax facility would certainly send a message to the next impudent contractor. Yes. When he is put on trial and convicted, the US will attempt to point to his punishment as an example to make others pause before considering something similar. Like in the John Walker case - http://www.usni.org/...-biggest-betrayal Another way to think about this is that, as a friend once said: "There are things that are illegal, and then there are things that are *ILLEGAL*." Taking home pens that say "US Government" for personal use is in the former category. Releasing classified information about the NSA without authorization is in the latter. With him having a TS clearance, he knew full well the potential consequences of what he was doing. If he didn't think that the US government was going to do everything in its power to prosecute him, and send him to prison for decades, he was delusional. Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,785 by rcareaga 7/9/13 12:47:09 PM Reply	delusional is a bit harsh ...but certainly it appears that he didn't think through the consequences, and he obviously didn't spend a lot of time working out an exit strategy. (BTW, Taking home pens that say "US Government" for personal use? I've spent a lot of time on federal premises over the years. Have you ever seen a "Skilcraft" pen? Cheap, nasty things. Wouldn't 'ave one in me 'ouse.) I remain a little baffled by the people who say that it's not an act of conscience until and unless Snowden submits to prosecution and punishment. It's not free speech if the personal cost is fifty years in supermax solitary. Someone suggested the other day that he needs to seek asylum in the one spot on earth that has shown itself completely beyond the reach of federal law enforcement: Wall Street. Again, he's a self-righteous showboater, but I think that We the People, as opposed to the National Security State of which The Guy Who Isn't Mitt Romney has become the too-willing steward and custodian, are better off for his work and, for that matter, Private Manning's. I don't care that the horrible hypothetical terrorist attack of October 2 was hypothetically averted, thereby sparing the lives of its 2275 hypothetical victims. It's not worth the forfeiture of constitutional government. I kinda hate to cross the room over to mmoffitt's side (an unreconstructed Confederate commie? Hurts my mind!), but I feel as though I've cut the president so much slack over the years that I've quite run out of string. cordially,
Post #377,788 by Another Scott 7/9/13 1:34:16 PM Reply	If it wasn't done in malice or to reward enemies... Prosecutors have lots of discretion, even under the Espionage Act (and he didn't have to be charged under that). I would think that his actions would be viewed very differently if he had stayed unknown, toiling away in Hawaii, or if he had mailed things to several US papers and then called a press conference, than the way they're viewed by many after he ran to Hong Kong, etc., etc. http://seattletimes....edleakstrial.html I can't crawl into Snowden's head, and we all have different takes on this. Your knowledge and personal feelings about what went on in the past WRT the CIA and so forth is more intense than mine. I, maybe naively, believe that many past abuses have been reigned in. But I take very little of what he says at face value. I think he's a smart guy and he is worried about civil liberties, but I don't trust his interpretation of what is legal and what is being done to Americans in general. His actions make me question his motives, and honestly make me question his understanding of reality. He seems to fit many of DRL's old comments about narcissists... Of course, narcissists aren't necessarily wrong, but one has to be careful around them. ;-) We'll see how it turns out. Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,793 by boxley 7/9/13 1:52:13 PM Reply	stayed in his barracks like manning? that didnt turn out wel Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,796 by Another Scott 7/9/13 1:58:33 PM Reply	The trial's not over; and military is different than civil.
Post #377,821 by crazy 7/9/13 7:36:23 PM Reply	You are so full of sh*t It's amazing. Be an apologist with blinders all you want, but the bottom line is, they are spying on us, and no matter what you say, it doesn't change the truth.
Post #378,871 by Another Scott 8/6/13 2:22:35 PM Reply	Soonergrunt's been watching the trial. http://www.balloon-j...loon-jobs-thread/ On a side note, Judge (COL) Lind has approved at least part of the Defense motion to combine charges for sentencing purposes, and reduced PFC ManningÂs punitive exposure from a maximum of 136 years to a new maximum of 90 years. Many of the people IÂve talked to expect a sentence in the 10 to 20 year range. Testimony is continuing today with more personnel from the State Department. FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #378,875 by mmoffitt 8/6/13 4:49:56 PM Reply	Perhaps a Re-Education Camp is in order, yes?
Post #378,886 by Ashton 8/6/13 7:07:40 PM Reply	Practically a reprieve, eh? (+ a Larry Summers quip) Lessee: at 120ish and with no 'retirement' accumulating 'during'.. He and his companion seeing-eye dog can push their purloined shopping cart amidst the ruins of DC, hoping for a few crumbs from the Mad Max Corps of de-Engineers --well, if They're still around, even. [er, this-all IS Theatre, ain't it--still??] Tragedy Comedy Tragico-comic Comedo-tragic Existential Fantasy Rap-doxology . . . and, Ooh--somewhat off-topic but in same thread, this gem EconWatcher says: August 6, 2013 at 2:18 pm Maybe I missed it, but I havenÂt seen a thread to complain about Obama pushing Larry Summers as Fed chair. So IÂm forced to use this one. Seriously, Larry Summers may be the biggest jerk in Washington. A bold statement, I know, but I think his record warrants it. HeÂs a classic VSP. Often wrong but never in doubt. He managed to dis just about everyone who was more prescient than he was leading into the financial crisis (a large crowd). HeÂs one of the geniuses who thought it was a great idea to leave credit default swaps and other derivatives entirely unregulated. He has to be one of the greatest recent examples of failing upwards. And heÂs just temperamentally unsuited for any job that requires more diplomatic skills than a junkyard dog. For better or worse, markets follow every syllable that the Fed chair says, and can go haywire from the slightest inaptly worded statement. Does this sound like a job for Larry Summers? Larry frickinÂ Summers? What is Obama thinking? (Nice to see someone else sharin the Luv for this reptile.. who just may get the gig, anyway, since it's all surreal.)
Post #378,888 by Another Scott 8/6/13 7:43:48 PM Reply	We'll see how both turn out. I still think Obama will appoint Yellen. Why? A couple of reasons. 1) Remember when 'everyone' was convinced that he was going to appoint Susan Rice as Secretary of State when Hillary left? How he had to because he defended her so strongly? I think Obama is defending Summers in the same spirit but that doesn't mean he has a lock on FedHead. 2) Remember when Obama was criticized for not having more appointments for women and minorities in his 2nd term? He said something like, "it's early and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised...". He knows that passing over Yellen will look very bad. I haven't kept up with the Manning trial in detail and don't have a strong feeling of what sort of sentence he will get. It seems as though the judge is trying to be fair. John Walker got life but may be released in 2015 (30 years). Jonathan Pollard got life but may be released in 2015 (28+ years). I would be very surprised if Manning got more than them and 10 years sounds sufficient to me at the moment. FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,814 by Ashton 7/9/13 4:08:56 PM Reply	About that head-crawling thing.. Scott, you are a nice person--neither sarcasm nor cynicism remotely intended in that comment. I (or anyone not-you) can have no possible way of knowing the limits of Your imagination, that is to say --the extent that you Can..? imagine those thoughts we usually summarize as: The Dark Side. Most of our hints re. Others' Dark Sides come from fiction [ Smiley's People etc. etc. for the tales told by virtuosi of the calibre of an Alec Guinness (in the PBS version.) ] (There have been n books since Abu Ghraib, one of which is, American Torture [Michael Otterman] from ~'07. Recall skimming that at local lib. I may.. have first seen something on Mitrione in that, re. his 'teachings' in Uruguay [I tend to recall odd-names + odd-countries better than most other things.] This man was quite a Piece of Work--I conclude.) Point is: I've found in my travels that some folks simply Cannot (actually!) "imagine" the depravity that, for some others is a constant companion. I'm betting that this 28 yo fledgling do-gooder just Maybe Can extrapolate from--either within his own psyche, or via vivid tales from others: the now proven depravity of a Soo--and all who sail in her--and all the hangers-on who Love playing Spook. And he { wisely } fears that he wouldn't survive, either: A) The medieval contents + inhuman isolation 23/7 of the modern transistorized Bastilles of the US or, B) more directly, and an equivalent set of horrors: much sooner vengeance; sooner, but maybe not-so-quick, see? Do you See? C) Likely there IS no C: "serve time as a normal prisoner"--whatever That means in '13, amidst the highest %incarcerated of any Rich country extant. And angling for yet more funds. Lastly, if you imagine that the Labeled-core missions of the NSA and the [n+50ish?] 'agencies' so secret that their Names are [Classified] ... are All ye Need to Know about 'operations' and actual activities within / under the aegis of these Congressionally funded orgs? Then I respectfully suggest that you have yet to gauge the depravity of Messrs. Soo/Cheney et al, and the deeper 'capabilities' of some of their 'technicians'. Who Love their 'work'. I'm willing to bet that these and (probably better-informed) other examples of The Trade are known to this young person, and that his imagination is likely more experience-based than yours. So I'll cut him more slack than you are wont to do, here. He is not worried about the 'legal'/or its pseudo-logic; I believe he worries about the utterly irrational.. vengeful possibilities. (I Know.. what I Would/would-not Do, were I a candidate to be on any One of those minions' laser-dot sights. And assuredly it would not be to rely, as far as I could throw a cubic foot of depleted-Uranium--upon the Murican 'justice' system 2013.) As Obama hews increasingly towards bot-like behavior as results, de-facto, in (as Rand commented) a policy which equals==blow a Whistle? Get max-slammer-time, no matter what--BECAUSE you crossed >ME<, you.. >you< QUESTIONED MY AUTHORITY, you disgusting retread '60s-Hippie scum ... As He Goes There, I Go: Okay, mofo, you have exceeded Geo. Bush-Cheney-light and are now fully-into [Whatever words describe the asymptote of] accelerating totalitarian Uniformity/homogenization of the masses], via "fine weaseling Words" followed by Actions precisely emulating George W. ['I don't believe in 'Nation-building'.] Whatever fanciful musings attended BHO's near-coronation-Then: and the vacillations, unfathomable reticence /inaction in face of far-Rightful, premeditated obstructionism--Successfully Carried Out! --the sigma of that-all, probably means that No One next, with anything like an educated-Intelligence (?) shall ever get within spitting-distance of that Oval place, for what..? a generation? (If the place is even recognizable in that near-future.) Sorry, but I too must demur: simply, IMO, the kid means Not-to get gang-raped and eviscerated/conveniently anonymously. the %population in US jails, the %pop [at astronomical annual $Bs] now employed at-high-salaries in 'security'Tvia any other rubric --these constitute so obvious a trend that you don't need to read It Can't Happen Here (as most in US have not.) Migawd it's 77 fucking-years-Old! It's Happening Here, now and next. (Who Cares about that hoary ancient-wisdom stuff any more?) And there's no video [yet..] Now.. were I a Banker who had created $Bs of recursively-worthless Junk CDOs / ruined many lives ... ¡No es una probléma! er, USA.. USA.. USA.. USA..
Post #377,823 by Another Scott 7/9/13 7:55:15 PM Reply	Thanks, but... I've seen my share of the dark side of humanity, too. I may be too trusting, but I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. :-) (No slight intended.) I have no illusions about how the technology and the collected information could be misused. And I have no illusions that there are people at Ft. Meade and elsewhere who have broken the rules and spied on people (or tried to) in illegal ways at some time or other. I just don't see that it could happen the way Greenwald and Snowden describe given the limitations of current technology and the vast mountains of data out there. If you have a few minutes, look at some of the comments at Balloon-Juice. I find these compelling - YMMV, of course :-) http://www.balloon-j.../#comment-4525827 http://www.balloon-j.../#comment-4525855 http://www.balloon-j.../#comment-4525896 That strikes me as the reality of the situation. If enough people get riled up about this NSA system, it will be changed. It would be nice if the changes were a reasonable reaction to concerns based on facts and actual abuses or short-comings. But if too many people get riled up about things that aren't facts or aren't abuses and it causes changes that make things worse but satisfy the screaming, then Snowden's and Greenwald's actions will have hurt their cause, and the cause of everyone who cares about sensible policies. As Martin said in the first link, to control the ability of governments to collect private information, the only solution is policy. There is no technological fix. And policy depends on trust: citizens have to believe that the policy is being followed and that the policy is fair. If the policy is sensible but people don't believe it, then it won't work. So we need to know what the policy is and have a sensible debate about whether it needs to be changed or scrapped. But even with good policies, there are times when the bad people on the inside will only be stopped after the fact. I'm not naive about that. Taking at face value the comments of a young guy who has had wild swings of opinion ("people who disclose classified information should be shot in the nuts"/"I don't believe I have done anything wrong"), who vastly inflate their own importance ("I made close to $200k a year"/"I could wiretap the President of the United States"), and so forth, is a step I'm unwilling to take. He may simply be a flawed messenger, but his story about the nearly all-powerful NSA spying on everyone for $20M a year (the PRISM slide) doesn't pass the smell test for me. But I'm repeating myself. :-) You've worked in a high-tech publicly-funded organization. You know how slowly things move; you know that most people there don't see the big picture and that nobody knows how all the pieces work together (let alone some young guy who's been there a few months). You know how easy it is for PowerPoint presentations to obfuscate and to be misinterpreted even when no deception is intended (Tufte's examples). There's lots of reasons why Snowden's story could be different from reality. Maybe I'm wrong and Snowden and Greenwald have done a great service to us and the NSA has been spying on all of us individually and S&G will have managed to stop us all from being rounded up and sent to Guantanamo were we to step out of line. Maybe. We'll see. Thanks again. :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,825 by Ashton 7/9/13 10:12:01 PM 7/9/13 10:40:11 PM Reply	'Twixt the 3, plus other samples: concur on several Indeed the bloon-juice folk have pretty-well parsed the range of possibilities. Probably the most incisive word found here--Martin's policy comment--is a large clue re. the achievable limits of public confidence -vs- effectiveness for the snoops. And yes, this guy Is unlovely--at 29 he should have outgrown the salary-brag and the wiretap-the-prez ploy. It's possible that he fits your emphases, and was? is? more interested in Self-adoration than in awakening the slumbering. OTOH: it looks--already--as if the Play has, maybe for the first Serious-time: successfully galvanized an authentic effort (just promised/not yet actual) of BHO et al to spell-out the Plan, the trade-offs.. via Public airing/contemplation of all the factors (amidst that tiny minority who ever delve at all.) 'We' don't Do that very well, if at all-- but as with the query of the US Prez [ Failsafe ] of the Premiere, after agreeing to nuke NYC: ..unless you can think that the gesture alone is.. sufficient???. (We know how that went.) This factoid alone, IMO can somewhat ameliorate his insouciance or vanity--perhaps enough that, along with this Public disclosure, there just might be tacked-on: Something intelligent re. Actual pukka Whistle-blowers, acknowledging that--in a society already infinitely-complex, homo-sap error and duplicity Shall Occur Regularly. ie We Need those suckers, even the unlovely ones. So then--there should be Publicly-discussed New RulesÂ on this agenda, concerning the Next {inevitable} Leaks. As it's a crap-shoot whether this guy's Valuable contribution outweighs his faults [what 'New' intel did he give the Russo-Chinese former-axis, of any consequence??] I declare then: it's a tie! re. what the fate of this guy 'ought' to be / (were there any Real 'justice' remaining in our current System.) Just another Morality Play, I wot. Ed: Bonus! from the firedoggers.. Denunciation of the Firebaggers and Shaming of the Obots Is that from The Rite of Spring? Edited by Ashton July 9, 2013, 10:40:11 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #377,826 by boxley 7/9/13 10:19:51 PM Reply	hurt what cause pass a law that if you dig into peoples private shit without a warrant you go to jail. Identify a suspect, convince a judge you have cause then ask for private data to be collected from the companies that hold the data. Done. If your argument is that several thousand people will die in attacks, thats the price of not living with the stazi police state. You do realize that the FUCKING GERMANS have a problem with what we are doing to our own people? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,836 by drook 7/10/13 9:58:50 AM Reply	LRPD I posted a little while back fits here I'd rather be wrong occasionally than live in fear and be right occasionally. -- Drew
Post #377,804 by mmoffitt 7/9/13 2:35:11 PM Reply	Welcome to the Party, Tovarisch. Where shall I send the Pioneer scarf? Tastefully adorned with the "Stars and Bars" of course. ;0)
Post #377,805 by Another Scott 7/9/13 2:35:47 PM Reply	rofl.
Post #378,877 by Another Scott 8/6/13 5:46:55 PM Reply	Wife believes it was a tragic accident. http://www.salon.com...cident/singleton/ FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #378,893 by boxley 8/6/13 9:03:16 PM Reply	wonder if she has an old greek guy with an island lined up? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #379,640 by Another Scott 8/20/13 9:19:21 PM Reply	LA Coroner report. http://www.latimes.c...0,0,5038230.story Coroner's officials said Hastings had traces of amphetamine in his system, consistent with possible intake of methamphetamine many hours before death, as well as marijuana. Neither were considered a factor in the crash, according to toxicology reports. DOCUMENT: Read the autopsy report The cause of death was massive blunt force trauma consistent with a high-speed crash. He likely died within seconds, the report said. Hastings had arrived in Los Angeles from New York the day before the accident, with his brother scheduled to arrive later the day of the crash "as his family was attempting to get [Hastings] to go to detox," the report stated. Hastings was believed sober for 14 years, but had recently begun using drugs again in the past month or so, according to the coroner's office, based on interviews with family members. A medical marijuana card was found in Hastings wallet and had been prescribed for treatment of post-traumatic stress resulting from his time as a war journalist in Iraq and Afghanistan. Hours before the crash, Hastings had last been seen by one witness "passed out" sometime between 12:30 a.m. and 1 a.m. The crash occurred just before 5 a.m. Cheers, Scott.
Post #379,653 by Another Scott 8/21/13 6:55:06 AM Reply	Mnemosyne chimes in. http://www.balloon-j.../#comment-4581362 4. Mnemosyne says: August 21, 2013 at 12:48 am @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I read the comments at the link. Mere facts are never enough to put down a good conspiracy. Again, as one of the people here who has actually driven on that stretch of Highland, itÂs completely plausible to me that someone driving in the early morning at high speed would crash at that transition between wide open, four-lane road and divided two-lane street. But, hey, what do I know, IÂm just someone who drove that same route dozens of times when I was doing an internship. He did a great service in exposing McCrystal. It's a great shame that he died so young. Cheers, Scott.
Post #379,760 by Ashton 8/22/13 7:46:54 PM Reply	Plot thickens.. but will it gel? http://www.salon.com...emium%29_7_30_110 Report: Michael Hastings feared his car had been tampered with According to the LA Weekly, reporter Michael Hastings asked to borrow a friend's car shortly before his death BY JILLIAN RAYFIELD War correspondent Michael Hastings, who died in a car crash in April, had reportedly become concerned that his car had been tampered with in the days leading up to his death, and asked friend Jordanna Thigpen to borrow hers, according to new profile in the LA Weekly. From the report: Helicopters often circle over the hills, but Hastings believed there were more of them around whenever he was at home, keeping an eye on him. He came to believe his Mercedes was being tampered with. ÂNothing I could say could console him,Â Thigpen says. One night in June, he came to ThigpenÂs apartment after midnight and urgently asked to borrow her Volvo. He said he was afraid to drive his own car. She declined, telling him her car was having mechanical problems. ÂHe was scared, and he wanted to leave town,Â she says. The next day, around 11:15 a.m., she got a call from her landlord, who told her Hastings had died early that morning. His car had crashed into a palm tree at 75 mph and exploded in a ball of fire. According to the LA Weekly, this was not the only indication of HastingsÂ Âincreasingly erraticÂ behavior, as writer Gene Maddaus put it, in the days leading up to his death: The day before Hastings died, he sent an email to his BuzzFeed bosses with the subject line ÂFBI investigation, re: NSA.Â The email informed them that Âthe Feds are interviewing Âmy close friends and associates,Â Â and advised them to get a lawyer if they were contacted. (No friends or associates have stepped forward to say that they were interviewed, and the FBI has denied it was investigating Hastings.) [. . .]
Post #377,772 by mmoffitt 7/9/13 10:07:00 AM Reply	Right. Under Obama, ... whistle-blowers don't run away, they get prosecuted.
Post #377,812 by Another Scott 7/9/13 3:50:53 PM Reply	Interesting/related Betty Cracker thread at Balloon-Juice. http://www.balloon-j...oomed-experiment/ Some good comments there, along with some great snark. Enjoy! Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,813 by boxley 7/9/13 4:08:25 PM Reply	I like this one I propose we create a fourth branch of government, so that everyone can claim itÂs corrupt as well. we all ready have the fourth estate, and yes it is corrupt, why do you ask? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep

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