Post #369,318
1/7/13 10:34:24 PM
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You know what, Box?
You're behaving like someone who just won't believe that lax gun control seriously harms a society that does not teach its citizens to take responsibility for growing up.
Or at least that's what it looks like to me from here, in a big city in Australia where I don't know anyone who has a gun (one possible exception is that I have a police-officer in my circle of friends) and you cannot buy ammunition in the local supermarket, as a stupid example.
From what I know, America was built on being a frontier country. Guns are a part of that because in the wilderness, you do need a method to defend yourself. But in many urbanised parts of your country, that is no longer the case. And your "right" to own a gun should stop at your neighbours' right to not be shot by you. And you know what? This is all *also* true of Australia! In the absence of a structure that could effectively deal with a Martin Bryant before he massacred dozens of people at Port Arthur, the government said "Shit: society can't be trusted with all these unnecessary weapons after all. We need to take them away." And they did.
America has been playing the "we can control it" card for a long long time. Looking from the outside in, I'd say t is time to try something different, like removing all those unnecessary weapons. Maybe it won't work. The problem is you don't know one way or the other because people like you don't want to try.
And then! And THEN! America can start seeing what it takes to find and sort out the sick, selfish fucks every society produces. Because every industrialized nation has this same problem.
It's not just "about the guns", Box, and it never has been. It is just that guns magnify the damage and are therefore the most visible part.
Wade.
P.S. Australia is actually very multi-cultural. We just did it differently than the US.
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Post #369,322
1/7/13 10:43:50 PM
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thanks for the input
like my spouse said that these mass killings are done by privileged white kids with privileged white parents
The difference between Oz and here the first place the gun enforcement laws will take place is in poor non white areas. Like Ash posted elsewhere, every time the white guy took his gun from the house to the car he committed a felony because he lived within a gun free school zone. Was he arrested? Charged? Convicted? no, but if he was black and from the inner city he would be.
Now its great that the gun laws in OZ stopped http://en.wikipedia....Sydney_gang_rapes
and that no one got harmed by a gun during the commission if these crimes.
We do it differently here.
A gun grab targets the people who have never been responsible for these mass killings and is enforced harshly against minorities. America loves to do that. That is why people who are used to having a lot of guns around the house are appalled that their rights would be so abridged.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #369,323
1/7/13 11:03:10 PM
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So...
Rather than arguing against gun control, why not argue against inequitable enforcement? Otherwise you might be accused of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. And I know you're better than that.
My point is not that gun control will _eliminate_ the gun violence - because I know it won't. But it will _reduce_ it. That is known. Sure, it won't reduce it _evenly_, but we know that, too. It's more than just who can have what guns: the problem is that so many people arguing a POV won't get past that. There are deeper issues to address, some of which will take a long time. But that's no reason to baulk at a comparitively easy step (i.e. gun control).
Wade.
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Post #369,329
1/7/13 11:30:35 PM
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easy for white folks to say
"well the "insert euro/anglo centric" here works for a reasonable value of works" gets translated into do what the white people tell you to do because we know better. After several hundred years of not being able to trust a damn thing these people are saying for good reason there is no great uptick into buying that argument. From reports around this country from the gun stores, even the white folk are not buying that meme.
We are not a white western nation, even when we pretended we were.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #369,331
1/7/13 11:33:06 PM
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Ok so you are a darkie.
Ok. Gotchya.
About wraps up your argument for me.
You are an Asshat... take More of your Meds and Arm the teachers with hammers along with Sidearms and AR-15s. Thrown in a couple of Military Blades and a wrist rocket.
Perfect.
--
greg@gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0 2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
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Post #369,360
1/8/13 10:29:16 AM
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you are a credit to your race
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #369,387
1/8/13 3:34:44 PM
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Obviously, you do well for yours
--
greg@gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0 2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
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Post #369,332
1/7/13 11:43:22 PM
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When was the last time a Tommy Gun was used in Chicago?
Gun laws do work. They don't have to be perfect to make communities safer.
http://en.wikipedia....on_submachine_gun
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #369,342
1/8/13 8:34:31 AM
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yesturday
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #369,344
1/8/13 9:05:02 AM
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Not according to the Sun-Times and Tribune
No stories about any gang-banger using an automatic weapon/machine gun to commit violence anywhere in the city yesterday.
Satan (impatiently) to Newcomer: The trouble with you Chicago people is, that you think you are the best people down here; whereas you are merely the most numerous.
- - - Mark Twain ÂPuddÂnhead WilsonÂs New Calendar, 1897
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Post #369,348
1/8/13 9:27:47 AM
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Ehh, something he pulled at random
Made up or not, it's a decent playing of the odds.
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Post #369,354
1/8/13 9:42:37 AM
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When was the last time a Tommy Gun was used in Chicago?
was the question
the answer was yesterday
there was no such restrictions as "gangbanger" or "violence" in the question
http://www.tommygunsgarage.com/
there are gun ranges in most major cities that rent such items, I'm sure chicago has one. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #369,419
1/8/13 8:40:42 PM
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Re: When was the last time a Tommy Gun was used in Chicago?
So a DINNER THEATER restaurant with a Roaring 20s theme "used" a Thompson submachine gun yesterday?
IT WAS A FUCKING STAGE PROP!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Box said:
There was no such restrictions as "gangbanger" or "violence" in the question
Was it too much to restrict it to being actually FUNCTIONAL???
Satan (impatiently) to Newcomer: The trouble with you Chicago people is, that you think you are the best people down here; whereas you are merely the most numerous.
- - - Mark Twain ÂPuddÂnhead WilsonÂs New Calendar, 1897
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Post #369,423
1/8/13 8:52:01 PM
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that wasn't the question
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #369,333
1/8/13 12:26:02 AM
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Okay, now I'm confused.
First, I most certainly did not intend nor imply whatever version of "white man say do this" you think I meant. I'm a little hurt you think I did, actually.
But what I don't understand is your point-of-view for reducing the civilian massacre's that the US is becoming known for. No, to be honest: I don't know what it is. It is true that I haven't kept up with a lot of the discussion on that topic here. So I went looking through the likely threads where you posted. And I still don't know your stance on this.
So what do you propose to reduce the likelihood of another Sandy Hook incident? Because I suspect some of us might be arguing past each other.
Wade.
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Post #369,336
1/8/13 6:29:42 AM
1/8/13 8:54:27 AM
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He's proposing nothing
It's not his responsibility.
He's in the position that other people are having problems, and these other people are typically very few, far away, and not his concern, at least not in the immediate forefront of his concerns.
He sees that the "solution" that other people are proposing will both impact him personally, his immediately family, and his extended family, all in ways that will make their life more expensive and difficult, in order to save MAYBE a 100 people a year out of a population of 300+ million.
He feels the "solution" is arbitrarily enforced, and will have very little positive effect. People who want to do illegal things will still have guns, and those that MIGHT need them to protect themselves will be further restricted. The enforcement will come at the expense of the minorities, just like the drug war, and will be used to control that portion of the population both by fining and jailing them for possession (which also destroys their chance for a real career), and the act of taking the gun away makes them powerless in a situation that they have very little power to start off with.
People in that situation do not trust to police to protect them, and often they have good reason.
Of course, people have painted him in a corner so his ADD is reaching for anything that will shut people up, but he's wandering a bit too far for most people and we've been calling him on it and it annoys him a bit, but not much.
All in all he has a reasonable position for someone who will be impacted by these new laws in a negative way. And don't bother telling him they are the source of suicide numbers, he knows in a very personal way that guns are merely a tool in the toolset, and those that want to kill themselves WILL.
How'd I do box?
Edit: Perfect, as expected.
Note: I support all or nothing in this area. I really do NOT like registrations of a subgroup of people who are allowed (for now) to keep these weapons. Either something is legal and nobody's business that you have it, or illegal and enforced evenly.
Edited by crazy
Jan. 8, 2013, 08:54:27 AM EST
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Post #369,340
1/8/13 8:28:02 AM
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perfect, thanx
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #369,362
1/8/13 10:58:44 AM
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Some differences
I'm really sympathetic to the comparison of gun laws to drug laws and the disproportionate impact on minorities. But there are some differences:
* Drug laws have been almost entirely back-door methods to target minorities. Gun laws attempt to address real issues, but enforcement -- as with all laws -- tends to be biased.
* Drug use is mostly victimless, and without a victim IMO there can't be a crime. The gun use that continually prompts debates very clearly has victims.
* Guns, when used as intended, cause injury and death. (Don't say "target shooting". We all know that's a low-percentage red herring.) Drugs are not intended to cause injury and death, though many do as a side-effect.
If your position (addressing Box here, not Crazy) is that 26 people (including 20 children) killed is such a rare event, and so small compared to the total population, that it's not worth the enforcement effort needed to prevent it, make the case. Logically it's actually not a bad position.
But that position will have zero support among typical parents. And like it or not, there are more of them than there are of you. So if you don't want laws passed that are going to disproportionately affect minorities, you're going to have to come up with an alternative. Because eventually something is going to change.
--
Drew
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Post #369,364
1/8/13 11:29:05 AM
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I don't have to come up with anything
you (inclusive you) claim that you want to stop events like this in the future. Nothing you propose will do that. You are simply using that event to push a social agenda. Some folks (Lincoln I'm looking at you) don't understand basic facts about the weapons in question. They just want a "feel good" law passed. That is what will probably happen. Doesn'y mean its right, does mean that it will be used as another tool to suppress those who don't support the elites.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #369,371
1/8/13 12:54:58 PM
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No
I'm not using it to push a social agenda. I don't want things like this to happen. I see that they don't happen so often in other places that don't have as many guns.
It's possible there are other things that would be more effective (at preventing future spree killings) than removing the guns, or less of an imposition on those who make legitimate use of guns, but I haven't heard them.
--
Drew
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Post #369,377
1/8/13 1:32:10 PM
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so specifically what would you do to prevent
"I don't want things like this to happen" that doesn't include copy pasta from other cultures that you actually think would have stopped the last two major events?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #369,386
1/8/13 3:26:20 PM
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I thought that was clear: less guns
--
Drew
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Post #369,392
1/8/13 4:07:51 PM
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and that works exactly how?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #369,394
1/8/13 4:32:53 PM
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People without guns can't shoot anyone
--
Drew
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Post #369,396
1/8/13 5:04:00 PM
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But they'd just use trebuchets instead!!!11
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Post #369,397
1/8/13 5:08:02 PM
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People with guns can't shoot anyone with guns
--
Drew
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Post #369,399
1/8/13 5:09:40 PM
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A society armed with trebuchets is a polite society
Or at least one with lots of trailers and pickup trucks.
Regards,
-scott
Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
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Post #369,406
1/8/13 6:36:43 PM
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And launch cows with them.
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Post #369,411
1/8/13 7:23:30 PM
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Fetchez la vache!
Regards,
-scott
Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
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Post #369,400
1/8/13 5:46:54 PM
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how do you propose to do that
250 million of them out there? Cmon now all of the whaily and gnashin, tell us folks how you propose to do exactly that. By the way, by doing so keep in mind that I and others would prefer that you don't get a chance to do that.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #369,401
1/8/13 5:57:24 PM
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Changing the argument
Are you saying "We shouldn't" or "We can't"?
If you're saying "We shouldn't", then what should we do instead?
If you're saying "We can't", then ... well, same question actually.
--
Drew
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Post #369,403
1/8/13 6:18:28 PM
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ah, I see. No clue at all, just emotions
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #369,428
1/9/13 1:17:06 AM
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BINGO! DIG DING DING! AOOO-GAH!
Perfectly stated.
This is completely and utterly an EMOTIONAL thing for you.
We all knew it. Thank you for finally admitting it!
Now, go get some counseling.
--
greg@gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0 2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
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Post #369,440
1/9/13 8:38:23 AM
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take yer meds Greg
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #369,445
1/9/13 10:03:05 AM
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Don't have any bucky.
You need some Counseling to deal with your issue.
--
greg@gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0 2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
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Post #369,429
1/9/13 2:31:24 AM
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You did WHAT?
You pulled a PROTECT THE CHEEELDRUN out of your ass for this?
WTF is wrong with you?
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Post #369,432
1/9/13 7:47:21 AM
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Nope
But that's what's behind a lot of the emotion against guns. Like I said, the logical argument from statistics is that spree killings are very rare, and the chances you'll be affected by one are slim. It's a hard argument to make, though, when the networks would put you in a split-screen with a crying parent.
--
Drew
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Post #369,444
1/9/13 10:01:29 AM
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A hard argument to make?
No it's not. It's an EASY one. When people are logical. When they are not, they are sheeple, and deserve what they get.
I will NEVER phrase an argument for the the morons watching the crying parents and getting riled up. You don't reason with these types of people, you manipulate them to achieve what you want.
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Post #369,409
1/8/13 6:54:37 PM
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Thanks. Much clearer now.
I haven't been a part of all the discussion here on IWETHEY.
I am constantly aware that I am an outsider looking in to this situation, but have been less aware that this means I *don't* know a lot of things that someone like Box would know. However, we do have one big thing in common: the desire to see the underlying problems brought to light and addressed.
I've been arguing elsewhere that gun control is just a first step in getting society to better cater for those would go off the deep-end with assault weapons before they actually do. And now I see it's very possible to get that first step horribly wrong! The big kicker is that fixing society is a very long term project and few leaders are around anywhere near long enough to drive it. Changing the gun laws takes a lot less time with faster results. They just have to be done Right. And then the hard task of changing society can start.
Wade.
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Post #369,341
1/8/13 8:34:02 AM
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Static, I know that you had no conscience intent there
It's called white privilege. You see a sensible solution as imposed by your country and your people. You think that it should work here. I was explaining that historically it doesn't work like that here. The first gun laws enacted was to make it illegal to sell or trade guns to the Indians and to ensure that blacks could not own guns. It has progressed to the point that gun ownership is being proposed to be limited to the elites. If one is of a certain class of power, you can own weapons, just the poor will be embargoed with folks of color feeling the brunt of it.
Crazy explained my position better than I have been able to.
No offence meant
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #369,402
1/8/13 6:17:31 PM
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Ah. Okay, gotcha.
The discussion makes a lot more sense now. And thanks, crazy, too.
But I would still like to know what you would suggest to reduce the number of civilian massacres, of which Sandy Hook and Columbine are mere examples. Or even if the US should do anything.
Because what I have been proposing does end at gun control. But it does start at dealing with the kind of lonely, bored, white-trash with too much money and/or too many assault weapons and taking them off him. OTOH, I can understand when the culture has developed over the years to make precisely doing that almost impossible. I guess I'm being optimistic that such difficulties can be overcome.
Wade.
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Post #369,404
1/8/13 6:34:12 PM
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not white trash at all
columbine parents were upper middle class and white
sandy hook kids mom was early retired and upper middle class white
colorado shooter was from a similar background
the shooters were all on a mix of medications affecting how the brain works.
problem we have here is that every insurance company knows exactly what medications every american takes but the government because of privacy isnt allowed to check those records on application for a gun permit. A gun permit is issued by the local policing authority after checking criminal history. If a medical condition is criminal related they can stop it, but only then.
Should the government go into every home of white folks who make more than 75k a year and are dosed on prozac, xanax, adderal, and other drugs and remove their guns?
There is a case to be made for that, I wouldn't have a problem with that at all. That should stop the mass killings like Sandy Hook.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #369,408
1/8/13 6:52:49 PM
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Do mine eyes deceive me?
Our is that an actual proposal?
--
Drew
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Post #369,410
1/8/13 7:10:07 PM
1/8/13 7:16:06 PM
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same one that I made quite a few days ago
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Edited by boxley
Jan. 8, 2013, 07:16:06 PM EST
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Post #369,414
1/8/13 7:49:24 PM
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No it's not
Now you're saying "people taking specific meds". Then you were saying "upper-middle class white people".
--
Drew
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Post #369,412
1/8/13 7:26:46 PM
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I shouldn't have said "white-trash".
I forget that it has different meanings here in Aus that is both subtly and wildly different. :-/
I agree, though, that medication like that should be part of the gun permit system. But again, it we mustn't stop there. This is vastly oversimplifying, but as a society we used to know how to handle people like that, how to teach those that could be taught how to manage themselves, how to put people around them who could look out for them. And how to corral those we couldn't do anything else for.
But this is a really big ask. It means turning back away from teaching selfishness and self-centredness. It means undoing the disruptive age-bracket mentality of raising and teaching children, for instance. It means things that will take a generation or more to change.
I'm not surprised the media hasn't been talking about this: most people don't understand it.
Wade.
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Post #369,415
1/8/13 7:55:34 PM
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freakin media is part of the elites over here
their sense of entitlement and being above the law is only exceeded by the politicians
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
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Post #369,358
1/8/13 10:12:08 AM
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Re: ... very multi-cultural. We just did it differently...
What? You didn't murder all the indigenous people and steal all of their land?
What's wrong with you people down there? ;0)
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Post #369,361
1/8/13 10:31:38 AM
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Yes they did
And stole their children as well.
Those abos are PISSED.
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Post #369,413
1/8/13 7:34:59 PM
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Sadly, we did that part.
I was referring to our immigration policies and practices which were over a shorter amount of time and had a smaller number of people than the US, and also had a different mix of nationalities. We also never had the slave culture that the US did, which also gave you a lot of population, nor did we fight a war of independence, which means we never really had a major event welding us into a single nation.
Wade.
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