He's proposing nothing

Post #369,336 by crazy 1/8/13 6:29:42 AM 1/8/13 8:54:27 AM Reply	He's proposing nothing It's not his responsibility. He's in the position that other people are having problems, and these other people are typically very few, far away, and not his concern, at least not in the immediate forefront of his concerns. He sees that the "solution" that other people are proposing will both impact him personally, his immediately family, and his extended family, all in ways that will make their life more expensive and difficult, in order to save MAYBE a 100 people a year out of a population of 300+ million. He feels the "solution" is arbitrarily enforced, and will have very little positive effect. People who want to do illegal things will still have guns, and those that MIGHT need them to protect themselves will be further restricted. The enforcement will come at the expense of the minorities, just like the drug war, and will be used to control that portion of the population both by fining and jailing them for possession (which also destroys their chance for a real career), and the act of taking the gun away makes them powerless in a situation that they have very little power to start off with. People in that situation do not trust to police to protect them, and often they have good reason. Of course, people have painted him in a corner so his ADD is reaching for anything that will shut people up, but he's wandering a bit too far for most people and we've been calling him on it and it annoys him a bit, but not much. All in all he has a reasonable position for someone who will be impacted by these new laws in a negative way. And don't bother telling him they are the source of suicide numbers, he knows in a very personal way that guns are merely a tool in the toolset, and those that want to kill themselves WILL. How'd I do box? Edit: Perfect, as expected. Note: I support all or nothing in this area. I really do NOT like registrations of a subgroup of people who are allowed (for now) to keep these weapons. Either something is legal and nobody's business that you have it, or illegal and enforced evenly. Edited by crazy Jan. 8, 2013, 08:54:27 AM EST He's proposing nothing It's not his responsibility. He's in the position that other people are having problems, and these other people are typically very few, far away, and not his concern, at least not in the immediate forefront of his concerns. He sees that the "solution" that other people are proposing will both impact him personally, his immediately family, and his extended family, all in ways that will make their life more expensive and difficult, in order to save MAYBE a 100 people a year out of a population of 300+ million. He feels the "solution" is arbitrarily enforced, and will have very little positive effect. People who want to do illegal things will still have guns, and those that MIGHT need them to protect themselves will be further restricted. The enforcement will come at the expense of the minorities, just like the drug war, and will be used to control that portion of the population both by fining and jailing them for possession (which also destroys their chance for a real career), and the act of taking the gun away makes them powerless in a situation that they have very little power to start off with. People in that situation to not trust to police to protect them, and often they have good reason. Of course, people have painted him in a corner so his ADD is reaching for anything that will shut people up, but he's wandering a bit too far for most people and we've been calling him on it and it annoys him a bit, but not much. All in all he has a reasonable position for someone who will be impacted by these new laws in a negative way. And don't bother telling him they are the source of suicide numbers, he knows in a very personal way that guns are merely a tool in the toolset, and those that want to kill themselves WILL. How'd I do box? Collapse All History
Post #369,340 by boxley 1/8/13 8:28:02 AM Reply	perfect, thanx Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #369,362 by drook 1/8/13 10:58:44 AM Reply	Some differences I'm really sympathetic to the comparison of gun laws to drug laws and the disproportionate impact on minorities. But there are some differences: * Drug laws have been almost entirely back-door methods to target minorities. Gun laws attempt to address real issues, but enforcement -- as with all laws -- tends to be biased. * Drug use is mostly victimless, and without a victim IMO there can't be a crime. The gun use that continually prompts debates very clearly has victims. * Guns, when used as intended, cause injury and death. (Don't say "target shooting". We all know that's a low-percentage red herring.) Drugs are not intended to cause injury and death, though many do as a side-effect. If your position (addressing Box here, not Crazy) is that 26 people (including 20 children) killed is such a rare event, and so small compared to the total population, that it's not worth the enforcement effort needed to prevent it, make the case. Logically it's actually not a bad position. But that position will have zero support among typical parents. And like it or not, there are more of them than there are of you. So if you don't want laws passed that are going to disproportionately affect minorities, you're going to have to come up with an alternative. Because eventually something is going to change. -- Drew
Post #369,364 by boxley 1/8/13 11:29:05 AM Reply	I don't have to come up with anything you (inclusive you) claim that you want to stop events like this in the future. Nothing you propose will do that. You are simply using that event to push a social agenda. Some folks (Lincoln I'm looking at you) don't understand basic facts about the weapons in question. They just want a "feel good" law passed. That is what will probably happen. Doesn'y mean its right, does mean that it will be used as another tool to suppress those who don't support the elites. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #369,371 by drook 1/8/13 12:54:58 PM Reply	No I'm not using it to push a social agenda. I don't want things like this to happen. I see that they don't happen so often in other places that don't have as many guns. It's possible there are other things that would be more effective (at preventing future spree killings) than removing the guns, or less of an imposition on those who make legitimate use of guns, but I haven't heard them. -- Drew
Post #369,377 by boxley 1/8/13 1:32:10 PM Reply	so specifically what would you do to prevent "I don't want things like this to happen" that doesn't include copy pasta from other cultures that you actually think would have stopped the last two major events? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #369,386 by drook 1/8/13 3:26:20 PM Reply	I thought that was clear: less guns -- Drew
Post #369,392 by boxley 1/8/13 4:07:51 PM Reply	and that works exactly how? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #369,394 by drook 1/8/13 4:32:53 PM Reply	People without guns can't shoot anyone -- Drew
Post #369,396 by Another Scott 1/8/13 5:04:00 PM Reply	But they'd just use trebuchets instead!!!11
Post #369,397 by drook 1/8/13 5:08:02 PM Reply	People with guns can't shoot anyone with guns -- Drew
Post #369,399 by malraux 1/8/13 5:09:40 PM Reply	A society armed with trebuchets is a polite society Or at least one with lots of trailers and pickup trucks. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #369,406 by mmoffitt 1/8/13 6:36:43 PM Reply	And launch cows with them.
Post #369,411 by malraux 1/8/13 7:23:30 PM Reply	Fetchez la vache! Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #369,400 by boxley 1/8/13 5:46:54 PM Reply	how do you propose to do that 250 million of them out there? Cmon now all of the whaily and gnashin, tell us folks how you propose to do exactly that. By the way, by doing so keep in mind that I and others would prefer that you don't get a chance to do that. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #369,401 by drook 1/8/13 5:57:24 PM Reply	Changing the argument Are you saying "We shouldn't" or "We can't"? If you're saying "We shouldn't", then what should we do instead? If you're saying "We can't", then ... well, same question actually. -- Drew
Post #369,403 by boxley 1/8/13 6:18:28 PM Reply	ah, I see. No clue at all, just emotions Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #369,428 by folkert 1/9/13 1:17:06 AM Reply	BINGO! DIG DING DING! AOOO-GAH! Perfectly stated. This is completely and utterly an EMOTIONAL thing for you. We all knew it. Thank you for finally admitting it! Now, go get some counseling. -- greg@gregfolkert.net PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05 Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0 2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Post #369,440 by boxley 1/9/13 8:38:23 AM Reply	take yer meds Greg Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #369,445 by folkert 1/9/13 10:03:05 AM Reply	Don't have any bucky. You need some Counseling to deal with your issue. -- greg@gregfolkert.net PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05 Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0 2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Post #369,429 by crazy 1/9/13 2:31:24 AM Reply	You did WHAT? You pulled a PROTECT THE CHEEELDRUN out of your ass for this? WTF is wrong with you?
Post #369,432 by drook 1/9/13 7:47:21 AM Reply	Nope But that's what's behind a lot of the emotion against guns. Like I said, the logical argument from statistics is that spree killings are very rare, and the chances you'll be affected by one are slim. It's a hard argument to make, though, when the networks would put you in a split-screen with a crying parent. -- Drew
Post #369,444 by crazy 1/9/13 10:01:29 AM Reply	A hard argument to make? No it's not. It's an EASY one. When people are logical. When they are not, they are sheeple, and deserve what they get. I will NEVER phrase an argument for the the morons watching the crying parents and getting riled up. You don't reason with these types of people, you manipulate them to achieve what you want.
Post #369,409 by static 1/8/13 6:54:37 PM Reply	Thanks. Much clearer now. I haven't been a part of all the discussion here on IWETHEY. I am constantly aware that I am an outsider looking in to this situation, but have been less aware that this means I don't know a lot of things that someone like Box would know. However, we do have one big thing in common: the desire to see the underlying problems brought to light and addressed. I've been arguing elsewhere that gun control is just a first step in getting society to better cater for those would go off the deep-end with assault weapons before they actually do. And now I see it's very possible to get that first step horribly wrong! The big kicker is that fixing society is a very long term project and few leaders are around anywhere near long enough to drive it. Changing the gun laws takes a lot less time with faster results. They just have to be done Right. And then the hard task of changing society can start. Wade. Just Add Story http://justaddstory.wordpress.com/

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