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New Net savings
of pennies on the dollar, when you add it all up...for a dozen or so years.

And they've never been wrong on anything before, either.
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
New Translation ...
"It's providing coverage to tens of millions of people who don't currently have any, but because it only saves a little bit, I'm going to say that doesn't count as savings after all, and agree with those who want to repeal it."
--

Drew
New Wrong wrong wrong
It provides coverage for millions of people that could have been covered for less...

it actually doesn't save a dime and really likely adds cost, even over the long run...

and it did nothing to create competition amongst the state markets to keep shit like the post that started this thread from happening in the first place.

Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
New Changing the subject
It provides coverage for millions of people that could have been covered for less...
Where was the competing legislation that would have done that?

it actually doesn't save a dime and really likely adds cost, even over the long run...
Show me the analysis that refutes the OMB.

and it did nothing to create competition amongst the state markets to keep shit like the post that started this thread from happening in the first place.
How would intra-state competition have prevented this?
--

Drew
New dude.
is it simply enough for you to ask questions without actually thinking first.

For example, on the last point, if the state boards WENT AWAY...(they were, after all, federalizing healthcare, right?)...there would have been several hundred newly competitive providers that would have limited this companies ability/or need to raise premiums. Blue Shield OF CALIFORNIA, could actually operate as Blue Shield and redo all of their overhead structure, leverage all 50 states orgs and balance teh actuarials across the entire country...a benefit to a high price state like CA.

And you are so blinded by your prejudice that you simply forget that that was a major republican platform in the healthcare debate.
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
New More words please
they were, after all, federalizing healthcare, right?
Who was? The Democrats via ACA? Is "federalizing healthcare" a buzzword that maps to "bad" or "good"? Because it sounds like a Republican talking point, but here you seem to be saying that it would have been good for California.

And you are so blinded by your prejudice that you simply forget that that was a major republican platform in the healthcare debate.
See, that right there is why people always seem to miss the point you're trying to make. You're assuming that I'm advocating positions based on Republican or Democratic talking points. So you make arguments that are loaded with buzzwords and shorthand which you assume I understand.

I'm not advocating a Democratic talking point. I'm saying:

* The OMB analysis shows that ACA will reduce healthcare costs.

* I don't believe insurance company statements blaming the ACA for their rate increases. That doesn't mean I assume the government is more trustworthy, just that I don't trust the insurers.

* Total cost savings could be a wash, or even show a slight increase in costs, and I would still support covering everybody. Note that before you get to focus on defining "slight" so you can argue about this point, you first have to get past the OMB analysis.

Show me something as comprehensive, that reaches a different conclusion, and explain why I should favor that analysis over the OMB, and you'll have the makings of a real argument.
--

Drew
New "Throw away the regulations and we'll have paradise!"
Is that about the size of it? Why do you continue to spout these Republican talking points? The ACA permits insurance to be sold across state lines, if the companies follow the rules.

Kaiser on issues debated in House and Senate versions:
http://www.kaiserhea...-state-lines.aspx

Commentary at the Urban Institute on the final ACA - http://www.urban.org...s-State-Lines.pdf (2 page .PDF):

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) does include provisions that will allow the purchasing of health insurance across state lines. However, these provisions are structured somewhat differently than earlier proposals advocated by some members of Congress and Senator John McCain during his 2008 presidential run. The differences are intended to protect states with more consumer protections from having those regulations undermined by cross-state sales of health insurance.1

[...]

Summary

Interstate sales of health insurance are permitted under PPACA, but only between states entering into explicit joint insurance compacts developed for this purpose. The law’s minimum levels of insurance regulations, which will apply to all states and its limitation of cross-state sales to those joining compacts, will provide greater consumer protections than would have been the case under prior proposals.


Horrors!!!!!11

;-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New Sigh
the rules. Set up this thing, that thing...the rules maintain the infrastructure...the infrastructure costs money.

Again, ..the ACA was an attempt to build NATIONAL healthcare...and you guys are both now bickering back at me with STATE protections.

What do you want..a STATE system or a FEDERAL system. Make up your mind...because having both costs money. Wasted money.

Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
New Heh.
Neither Drook not I wrote the bills.

http://www.factcheck...-run-health-care/

You're running out of straw.

;-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New No, I'm not
If the federal government is going to MANDATE coverage, which they did...then it is a federal system. Hence, leaving the state bodies there only adds overhead.

Or do you think that 50 Blue Shields can operate more effectively and efficiently (and thus price more effectively and efficiently) than one?

Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
New Yeah, you're not.
Never a shortage of straw... :-(

Cheers,
Scott.
New Re: Yeah, you're not.
I see you can't respond to logic.
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
New Back atcha. See #41312.
New Incorrect assumption there
the OMB says that it will cost the GOVERNMENT less money. A very little less money, as it were.

(never mind that the President promised me about 2 grand less in my premium too).

Aside from the fact that back in may the CBO said they underestimated the cost of the bill by some 115billion..which is roughly half of the paltry savings that we were supposed to get over the 10 years.

So to say I have no faith in the governments numbers would be, um, an understatement.

http://blogs.abcnews...sly-assessed.html
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
Expand Edited by beepster Jan. 7, 2011, 09:53:05 PM EST
Expand Edited by beepster Jan. 7, 2011, 10:33:15 PM EST
New Horse's mouth.
http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=1750

[...]

Impact on the Federal Budget in the First Decade

As a result of changes in direct spending and revenues, CBO expects that enacting H.R. 2 would probably increase federal budget deficits over the 2012–2019 period by a total of roughly $145 billion (on the basis of the original estimate), plus or minus the effects of technical and economic changes that CBO and JCT will include in the forthcoming estimate. Adding two more years (through 2021) brings the projected increase in deficits to something in the vicinity of $230 billion, plus or minus the effects of technical and economic changes.

Those projections do not include any potential savings in discretionary spending, which is governed by annual appropriation acts. By CBO’s estimates, repeal of the health care legislation would probably reduce the appropriations needed by the Internal Revenue Service by between $5 billion and $10 billion over 10 years. Similar savings would accrue to the Department of Health and Human Services.

There is no clear basis for projecting other effects of H.R. 2 on discretionary spending. PPACA contained a number of authorizations for future appropriations, which, if left in place, might or might not result in additional appropriations. For example, most of the authorizations were for activities that were already being carried out under current law or that were previously authorized and that PPACA authorized for future years. Thus, repeal of the PPACA authorizations might or might not result in discretionary savings associated with those authorizations.

Impact on the Federal Budget Beyond the First 10 Years

CBO estimates that enacting H.R. 2 would increase federal deficits in the decade after 2019 by an amount that is in a broad range around one-half percent of GDP, plus or minus the effects of technical and economic changes that CBO and JCT will include in the forthcoming estimate. For the decade beginning after 2021, the effect of H.R. 2 on federal deficits as a share of the economy would probably be somewhat larger.

As with all of CBO’s cost estimates, these estimates—both for the first 10 years and beyond—reflect an assumption that the provisions of current law would otherwise remain unchanged throughout the projection period and that the legislation being considered would be enacted and implemented in its current form. CBO’s responsibility to the Congress is to estimate the effects of proposals as written and not to forecast future legislation. However, current law now includes a number of policies that might be difficult to sustain over a long period of time. If those policies or other key aspects of the original legislation would have subsequently been modified or implemented incompletely, then the budgetary effects of repealing PPACA and the relevant provisions of the Reconciliation Act could be quite different—but CBO cannot forecast future changes in law or assume such changes in its estimates.

Effects on the Federal Budgetary Commitment to Health Care

CBO uses the term “federal budgetary commitment to health care” to describe the sum of net federal outlays for health programs and tax preferences for health care. H.R. 2 would roughly reverse the outcome projected for the original legislation, diminishing the federal budgetary commitment to health care over the next decade and increasing it in subsequent years.

Effects on the Number of People with Health Insurance

Under H.R. 2, about 32 million fewer nonelderly people would have health insurance in 2019, leaving a total of about 54 million nonelderly people uninsured. The share of legal nonelderly residents with insurance coverage in 2019 would be about 83 percent, compared with a projected share of 94 percent under current law (and 83 percent currently).

Effects on Health Insurance Premiums

If H.R. 2 was enacted, premiums for health insurance in the individual market would be somewhat lower than under current law, mostly because the average insurance policy in this market would cover a smaller share of enrollees’ costs for health care and a slightly narrower range of benefits. Although premiums in the individual market would be lower, on average, under H.R. 2 than under current law, many people would end up paying more for health insurance—because under current law, the majority of enrollees purchasing coverage in that market would receive subsidies via the insurance exchanges, and H.R. 2 would eliminate those subsidies.

Premiums for employment-based coverage obtained through large employers would be slightly higher under H.R. 2 than under current law. Premiums for employment-based coverage obtained through small employers might be slightly higher or slightly lower (reflecting uncertainty about the impact of the enacted legislation on premiums in that market).


HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Figured you would go here
so if you'd like to add up the tax increases and the cuts in medicare payments in that bill...you would get that number. There is no impact on cost of care beyond that.

This from a bill that was supposed to reduce the cost of care. Naturally it accomplishes this by simply cutting the amount it pays for the service...not reducing the cost to provide it.

Which is why you have doctors not accepting medicare payments. (or maybe their just all evil republican jerks..that story seems to work)
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
New Too much straw!
I can't have an argument with you while you keep changing the topic without addressing our rebuttals.

Where's your reply to Drook with evidence? You know, the one that says HR2 will cut the deficit?

Thanks.

Cheers,
Scott.
New The one that
linked to another gov't office on the same subject that keeps moving the cost estimates up.

Oh, sorry, the government cannot be questioned, I forgot, they are proof positive.

</sarcasm>
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
New Oh, one more thing.
http://krugman.blogs...-shape-of-planet/

HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.
New oh, the more spending and debt is good guy
hows the price of gas doing where you live? Betcha krugman thinks its oil shortages driving that
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
New Strawman much?
:-)

Krugman didn't write the rebuttal articles. Noah (at Slate) and Bernstein (at TNR) did. Both have linkies.

Connect the dots for me - why is the price of gas relevant to this discussion? Some sort of ad hominem? "I insinuate PK doesn't know what he's talking about when discussing commodity prices, therefore nothing he says about anything has relevance" or something? Similarly with the "spending and debt" comment. Spell it out for me, please. I like to learn new things. ;-)

Regular is $3.20 around here, last I looked. It was around $0.35-$0.40 per gallon cheaper in Austin a couple of weeks ago. Dunno the Diesel price around here ATM; haven't bought any in 6 weeks or so. ;-)

HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Re: Strawman much?
speaking of Austin gas prices: http://www.austingasprices.com/

Lowest price they have listed at the time of this post is $2.75 for regular, $3.05 for diesel.




"Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from."

-- E.L. Doctorow
New So he's saying
they fixed healthcare, but they didn't fix healthcare all the way...with 300 bn in cost left out...and magically saved roughly 300bn.

Isn't that convenient.
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
New Key point missed
Start with a goal.
Work to that goal without destroying the system in place, at least where the system has specific known benefits.

Goal: Universal Healthcare.
Within this goal, most people are already in a state regulated system.
They WANT it to be state regulated, because they get to vote locally on certain minimums. If you want the PRIVILEGE of selling into their marketplace, which they control via being state citizens and paying state taxes, then you have to play by their rules.

You don't get to be a low priced provider that is based on the crappiest states rules, and sell into MY marketplace, because we don't live there for a reason. It is a crappy state with crappy health rules.

That crap was the core reason I despised the other plan.

Since employers will happily takes the cheapest possible, and then pass the crappy health insurance to their unsuspecting employees, it takes way too long for the results to show up to do anything about it.

Which in turn drives all other providers out of business unless they follow the same path. No. Unacceptable.

So, a single state has it's rules. If it would like to make it's insurance cheaper by allowing competition, then they get to choose which state has enough corresponding rules to allow the BARE minimum their citizen require. If you don't think the Blues won't JUMP at this, joining their various pieces together in equivalent states, you are missing the picture. And then you can expect incremental overhead savings, just like in any other merger of near equals (a rare occurrence, but it fits here).

You don't get to wave around huge savings "missed". The COST of those savings, in human terms, are not being mentioned. And that cost is a lot higher than the "savings".
New Yup.
You don't get to wave around huge savings "missed". The COST of those savings, in human terms, are not being mentioned. And that cost is a lot higher than the "savings".


Thanks.

That's a great distillation of too many "conservative" arguments. They rail and rail about taxes and regulations, but they completely ignore what those taxes pay for and the benefits provided by the regulations. For a group that claims to respect economics, they throw out the "benefits" in "cost-benefit analysis".

And it's clear that there would be a race to the bottom without state compacts or national standards for interstate insurance. When I was a temp worker, around 20 years ago, the agency I worked for liked to play up the fact that they provided benefits. One of the benefits was a term insurance policy. Whoo-Hooo! Life insurance! The value? A whole $1000.00. Why did they offer such a policy? 1) To provide a checkmark for those who were trying to compare what agency to work for - that is all. Interstate insurance would be a similar race to the bottom if companies had the choice - providing the barest minimum. 2) You can bet that that policy wasn't cost-effective for the employee (and the cost ultimately was paid by the employee).

But I hear the yelling - "Good insurance companies wouldn't race to the bottom. The magic of the marketplace would ensure that there was a variety of policies with a variety of benefits for a variety of prices. Customers would be free to choose the policies that were best for them." Evidence says otherwise. Look at credit cards. How many cards offer 5% interest rates? You can get a 30 year mortgage for 5%, but can't get a credit card for 5% (fixed, non-teaser). CC rates over 20% are common - though those would have been considered usury back when consumer interest rates were more strongly regulated... You can also look at US manufacturing. Companies that wanted have a strong US manufacturing presence had to compete with those who had no qualms about moving manufacturing to Mexico or China, or those who used US sweatshops. Without uniform standards, those without scruples and those who only care about costs will undercut those who have higher standards.

Companies in banking and insurance will charge what they can get away with and provide the minimum in return. The "magic of the marketplace" doesn't work for too many people trying to get those services (especially the young and the vulnerable of all stripes). That's why there has to be reasonable, consistent regional (or preferably national) regulations for companies that want to operate across state lines.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Note on lowest cost checkmarks
I have a friend who destroyed the US mortgage marketplace. Well, I helped, but he really determined the best possible people to sell to, and it was my job to get them out of the data. Some of you know the story.

After he got fired from that gig, he moved on to a low cost health care provider. Really low cost. Entry level checkmarks only. He figured if he could find the most vulnerable people to make money selling mortgages to, he could do the same for health care.

He didn't last in that position. But there are a lot of people doing the same thing. A lot more than are trying to figure out how to fix the system.
     Another Day, Another Premium Spike in Response to Obamacare - (boxley) - (47)
         Anchoring - (drook) - (42)
             You forgot one - (jay)
             from the comments - (boxley) - (40)
                 Gosh, a clever phrase ... then it *must* be true -NT - (drook) - (39)
                     common sense, how does that work? -NT - (boxley) - (38)
                         It works by consulting the OMB - (drook) - (37)
                             Net savings - (beepster) - (25)
                                 Translation ... - (drook) - (24)
                                     Wrong wrong wrong - (beepster) - (23)
                                         Changing the subject - (drook) - (22)
                                             dude. - (beepster) - (21)
                                                 More words please - (drook)
                                                 "Throw away the regulations and we'll have paradise!" - (Another Scott) - (19)
                                                     Sigh - (beepster) - (18)
                                                         Heh. - (Another Scott) - (17)
                                                             No, I'm not - (beepster) - (16)
                                                                 Yeah, you're not. - (Another Scott) - (12)
                                                                     Re: Yeah, you're not. - (beepster) - (11)
                                                                         Back atcha. See #41312. -NT - (Another Scott) - (10)
                                                                             Incorrect assumption there - (beepster) - (9)
                                                                                 Horse's mouth. - (Another Scott) - (3)
                                                                                     Figured you would go here - (beepster) - (2)
                                                                                         Too much straw! - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                                                             The one that - (beepster)
                                                                                 Oh, one more thing. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                                                                                     oh, the more spending and debt is good guy - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                                         Strawman much? - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                                                             Re: Strawman much? - (lincoln)
                                                                                     So he's saying - (beepster)
                                                                 Key point missed - (crazy) - (2)
                                                                     Yup. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                                         Note on lowest cost checkmarks - (crazy)
                             guess the insurance companies didnt read the OMB -NT - (boxley) - (10)
                                 OMB says it saves money - (drook) - (9)
                                     go back to the earlier comment - (boxley) - (6)
                                         It *doesn't* cost more - (drook) - (5)
                                             fek omb - (boxley) - (4)
                                                 Apples and Oranges, and you know it. - (Another Scott)
                                                 Still believing your insurance company ... that's so sweet - (drook) - (2)
                                                     what insurance company, we dont have one - (boxley) - (1)
                                                         Primary point ignored - (crazy)
                                     Re: OMB says it saves money - (SpiceWare) - (1)
                                         As I said to Beep above ... - (drook)
         Nope. - (malraux) - (2)
             Dammit - (drook) - (1)
                 Makes you wonder, doesn't it. -NT - (malraux)
         I Love this thread.. - (Ashton)

This theory is not even wrong.
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