of pennies on the dollar, when you add it all up...for a dozen or so years.
And they've never been wrong on anything before, either.
Net savings
of pennies on the dollar, when you add it all up...for a dozen or so years.
And they've never been wrong on anything before, either. Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Translation ...
"It's providing coverage to tens of millions of people who don't currently have any, but because it only saves a little bit, I'm going to say that doesn't count as savings after all, and agree with those who want to repeal it."
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Drew |
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Wrong wrong wrong
It provides coverage for millions of people that could have been covered for less...
it actually doesn't save a dime and really likely adds cost, even over the long run... and it did nothing to create competition amongst the state markets to keep shit like the post that started this thread from happening in the first place. Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Changing the subject
It provides coverage for millions of people that could have been covered for less...Where was the competing legislation that would have done that? it actually doesn't save a dime and really likely adds cost, even over the long run...Show me the analysis that refutes the OMB. and it did nothing to create competition amongst the state markets to keep shit like the post that started this thread from happening in the first place.How would intra-state competition have prevented this? --
Drew |
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dude.
is it simply enough for you to ask questions without actually thinking first.
For example, on the last point, if the state boards WENT AWAY...(they were, after all, federalizing healthcare, right?)...there would have been several hundred newly competitive providers that would have limited this companies ability/or need to raise premiums. Blue Shield OF CALIFORNIA, could actually operate as Blue Shield and redo all of their overhead structure, leverage all 50 states orgs and balance teh actuarials across the entire country...a benefit to a high price state like CA. And you are so blinded by your prejudice that you simply forget that that was a major republican platform in the healthcare debate. Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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More words please
they were, after all, federalizing healthcare, right?Who was? The Democrats via ACA? Is "federalizing healthcare" a buzzword that maps to "bad" or "good"? Because it sounds like a Republican talking point, but here you seem to be saying that it would have been good for California. And you are so blinded by your prejudice that you simply forget that that was a major republican platform in the healthcare debate.See, that right there is why people always seem to miss the point you're trying to make. You're assuming that I'm advocating positions based on Republican or Democratic talking points. So you make arguments that are loaded with buzzwords and shorthand which you assume I understand. I'm not advocating a Democratic talking point. I'm saying: * The OMB analysis shows that ACA will reduce healthcare costs. * I don't believe insurance company statements blaming the ACA for their rate increases. That doesn't mean I assume the government is more trustworthy, just that I don't trust the insurers. * Total cost savings could be a wash, or even show a slight increase in costs, and I would still support covering everybody. Note that before you get to focus on defining "slight" so you can argue about this point, you first have to get past the OMB analysis. Show me something as comprehensive, that reaches a different conclusion, and explain why I should favor that analysis over the OMB, and you'll have the makings of a real argument. --
Drew |
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"Throw away the regulations and we'll have paradise!"
Is that about the size of it? Why do you continue to spout these Republican talking points? The ACA permits insurance to be sold across state lines, if the companies follow the rules.
Kaiser on issues debated in House and Senate versions: http://www.kaiserhea...-state-lines.aspx Commentary at the Urban Institute on the final ACA - http://www.urban.org...s-State-Lines.pdf (2 page .PDF): The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) does include provisions that will allow the purchasing of health insurance across state lines. However, these provisions are structured somewhat differently than earlier proposals advocated by some members of Congress and Senator John McCain during his 2008 presidential run. The differences are intended to protect states with more consumer protections from having those regulations undermined by cross-state sales of health insurance.1 Horrors!!!!!11 ;-) Cheers, Scott. |
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Sigh
the rules. Set up this thing, that thing...the rules maintain the infrastructure...the infrastructure costs money.
Again, ..the ACA was an attempt to build NATIONAL healthcare...and you guys are both now bickering back at me with STATE protections. What do you want..a STATE system or a FEDERAL system. Make up your mind...because having both costs money. Wasted money. Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Heh.
Neither Drook not I wrote the bills.
http://www.factcheck...-run-health-care/ You're running out of straw. ;-) Cheers, Scott. |
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No, I'm not
If the federal government is going to MANDATE coverage, which they did...then it is a federal system. Hence, leaving the state bodies there only adds overhead.
Or do you think that 50 Blue Shields can operate more effectively and efficiently (and thus price more effectively and efficiently) than one? Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Yeah, you're not.
Never a shortage of straw... :-(
Cheers, Scott. |
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Re: Yeah, you're not.
I see you can't respond to logic.
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Back atcha. See #41312.
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Incorrect assumption there
the OMB says that it will cost the GOVERNMENT less money. A very little less money, as it were.
(never mind that the President promised me about 2 grand less in my premium too). Aside from the fact that back in may the CBO said they underestimated the cost of the bill by some 115billion..which is roughly half of the paltry savings that we were supposed to get over the 10 years. So to say I have no faith in the governments numbers would be, um, an understatement. http://blogs.abcnews...sly-assessed.html Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Horse's mouth.
http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=1750
[...] HTH. Cheers, Scott. |
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Figured you would go here
so if you'd like to add up the tax increases and the cuts in medicare payments in that bill...you would get that number. There is no impact on cost of care beyond that.
This from a bill that was supposed to reduce the cost of care. Naturally it accomplishes this by simply cutting the amount it pays for the service...not reducing the cost to provide it. Which is why you have doctors not accepting medicare payments. (or maybe their just all evil republican jerks..that story seems to work) Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Too much straw!
I can't have an argument with you while you keep changing the topic without addressing our rebuttals.
Where's your reply to Drook with evidence? You know, the one that says HR2 will cut the deficit? Thanks. Cheers, Scott. |
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The one that
linked to another gov't office on the same subject that keeps moving the cost estimates up.
Oh, sorry, the government cannot be questioned, I forgot, they are proof positive. </sarcasm> Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Oh, one more thing.
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oh, the more spending and debt is good guy
hows the price of gas doing where you live? Betcha krugman thinks its oil shortages driving that
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
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Strawman much?
:-)
Krugman didn't write the rebuttal articles. Noah (at Slate) and Bernstein (at TNR) did. Both have linkies. Connect the dots for me - why is the price of gas relevant to this discussion? Some sort of ad hominem? "I insinuate PK doesn't know what he's talking about when discussing commodity prices, therefore nothing he says about anything has relevance" or something? Similarly with the "spending and debt" comment. Spell it out for me, please. I like to learn new things. ;-) Regular is $3.20 around here, last I looked. It was around $0.35-$0.40 per gallon cheaper in Austin a couple of weeks ago. Dunno the Diesel price around here ATM; haven't bought any in 6 weeks or so. ;-) HTH. Cheers, Scott. |
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Re: Strawman much?
speaking of Austin gas prices: http://www.austingasprices.com/
Lowest price they have listed at the time of this post is $2.75 for regular, $3.05 for diesel. "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow |
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So he's saying
they fixed healthcare, but they didn't fix healthcare all the way...with 300 bn in cost left out...and magically saved roughly 300bn.
Isn't that convenient. Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Key point missed
Start with a goal.
Work to that goal without destroying the system in place, at least where the system has specific known benefits. Goal: Universal Healthcare. Within this goal, most people are already in a state regulated system. They WANT it to be state regulated, because they get to vote locally on certain minimums. If you want the PRIVILEGE of selling into their marketplace, which they control via being state citizens and paying state taxes, then you have to play by their rules. You don't get to be a low priced provider that is based on the crappiest states rules, and sell into MY marketplace, because we don't live there for a reason. It is a crappy state with crappy health rules. That crap was the core reason I despised the other plan. Since employers will happily takes the cheapest possible, and then pass the crappy health insurance to their unsuspecting employees, it takes way too long for the results to show up to do anything about it. Which in turn drives all other providers out of business unless they follow the same path. No. Unacceptable. So, a single state has it's rules. If it would like to make it's insurance cheaper by allowing competition, then they get to choose which state has enough corresponding rules to allow the BARE minimum their citizen require. If you don't think the Blues won't JUMP at this, joining their various pieces together in equivalent states, you are missing the picture. And then you can expect incremental overhead savings, just like in any other merger of near equals (a rare occurrence, but it fits here). You don't get to wave around huge savings "missed". The COST of those savings, in human terms, are not being mentioned. And that cost is a lot higher than the "savings". |
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Yup.
You don't get to wave around huge savings "missed". The COST of those savings, in human terms, are not being mentioned. And that cost is a lot higher than the "savings". Thanks. That's a great distillation of too many "conservative" arguments. They rail and rail about taxes and regulations, but they completely ignore what those taxes pay for and the benefits provided by the regulations. For a group that claims to respect economics, they throw out the "benefits" in "cost-benefit analysis". And it's clear that there would be a race to the bottom without state compacts or national standards for interstate insurance. When I was a temp worker, around 20 years ago, the agency I worked for liked to play up the fact that they provided benefits. One of the benefits was a term insurance policy. Whoo-Hooo! Life insurance! The value? A whole $1000.00. Why did they offer such a policy? 1) To provide a checkmark for those who were trying to compare what agency to work for - that is all. Interstate insurance would be a similar race to the bottom if companies had the choice - providing the barest minimum. 2) You can bet that that policy wasn't cost-effective for the employee (and the cost ultimately was paid by the employee). But I hear the yelling - "Good insurance companies wouldn't race to the bottom. The magic of the marketplace would ensure that there was a variety of policies with a variety of benefits for a variety of prices. Customers would be free to choose the policies that were best for them." Evidence says otherwise. Look at credit cards. How many cards offer 5% interest rates? You can get a 30 year mortgage for 5%, but can't get a credit card for 5% (fixed, non-teaser). CC rates over 20% are common - though those would have been considered usury back when consumer interest rates were more strongly regulated... You can also look at US manufacturing. Companies that wanted have a strong US manufacturing presence had to compete with those who had no qualms about moving manufacturing to Mexico or China, or those who used US sweatshops. Without uniform standards, those without scruples and those who only care about costs will undercut those who have higher standards. Companies in banking and insurance will charge what they can get away with and provide the minimum in return. The "magic of the marketplace" doesn't work for too many people trying to get those services (especially the young and the vulnerable of all stripes). That's why there has to be reasonable, consistent regional (or preferably national) regulations for companies that want to operate across state lines. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott. |
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Note on lowest cost checkmarks
I have a friend who destroyed the US mortgage marketplace. Well, I helped, but he really determined the best possible people to sell to, and it was my job to get them out of the data. Some of you know the story.
After he got fired from that gig, he moved on to a low cost health care provider. Really low cost. Entry level checkmarks only. He figured if he could find the most vulnerable people to make money selling mortgages to, he could do the same for health care. He didn't last in that position. But there are a lot of people doing the same thing. A lot more than are trying to figure out how to fix the system. |