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New Interesting discussion.
"Marriage" as a practice has been around a very very long time. As far as I know, it predates all existing legal frameworks. So the legal definition has very much come out of the religious definition. A lot of people wed to the religious practice forget that - sometimes willingly, I might add. Church-based officiators can be at pains to distinguish between the bit that makes a marriage legal in the eyes of the law from the bit that makes it valid in the eyes of a religion, but that doesn't mean that a) all are or b) all getting marriage appreciate that.

Wade.

"Ah -- I take it the doorbell doesn't work?"
New I think that where you stand depends on where you sit.
:-)

Like you, I suspect that marriage predates written history. If that's the case, then how does one decide whether the framework it took place under was "legal" or "religious" or "social" or ...? I don't think the conclusion is that religion wins.

The Code of Hammurabi (reigned 1795-1750 BCE) http://www.commonlaw.com/Hammurabi.html

[...]

128. If a man has taken a wife and has not executed a marriage contract, that woman is not a wife.

[...]

167. If a man has taken a wife, and she has borne him children and that woman has gone to her fate, and he has taken a second wife, and she also has borne children; after the father has gone to his fate, the sons shall not share according to mothers, but each family shall take the marriage-portion of its mother, and all shall share the goods of the father's estate equally.

[...]


Of course, it's known for being a framework of laws, so it's not really surprising that religion isn't mentioned in the discussion of marriage.

http://en.wikipedia...._marriage_rituals

Chinese marriage became a custom between 402-221 B.C. Despite China's long history and many different geographical areas, there are basically six rituals, generally known as the three letters and six etiquette [...]


In my reading, marriages (and divorce) were a clan-to-clan arrangement. The state got involved in divorce if a crime had been committed by one of the people. Otherwise, there didn't seem to be a state or religious sanction. Instead it seemed to be based on building bonds between families.

In Western societies, non-religious figures have conducted marriages for hundreds of years: ships captains (in some cases, see below), justices-of-the-peace, etc. And in the US, one need not even have someone else administer an oath or conduct a ceremony - http://www.straightd...rry-people-at-sea

[...]

Let's start with the one rock of certainty in this discussion: No state has enacted a statute explicitly authorizing ships' captains to solemnize marriages. However, in ruling on the validity of such marriages, the courts have waffled. On the one hand there is a longstanding legal presumption that if two people think they got married, they did get married, even if the proceeding by which this was accomplished was suspect. On the other hand, judges have also felt, jeez, we can't let just anybody solemnize marriages, we gotta have rules.

This ambivalence has resulted in decisions on both sides of the fence. In Fisher vs. Fisher the court ruled a marriage by a ship's captain valid; in an 1898 case in California, Norman vs. Norman, the court ruled the opposite. It's important to note that in Fisher the court did not specifically single out ships' captains (as opposed to say, mailmen) as having the power to perform marriages; rather it ruled that, absent a statute to the contrary, and subject to certain other conditions, an exchange of vows between consenting parties constituted a valid marriage--as I read it, whether there was an officiant or not. In other words, marriage by ship's captain, or by anybody other than a recognized minister, JP, etc., was a type of common-law marriage.

There are still some states that recognize common-law marriage. Typically all that's necessary is that the parties (1) be legally free to marry (e.g., no undissolved prior marriages); (2) properly consent; (3) "cohabit" (do it); (4) live together; and (5) let the neighbors think they're married. (Contrary to common belief, it is not necessary that the couple live together for seven years.)

What's not required are the services of a minister. So while you're correct in saying "there is authority that a marriage performed by a ship's captain on the high seas is valid," captains don't have any special powers in this regard. A close reading of Fisher suggests the ceremony might as well have been performed by a waiter.

[...]


And so on.

Whether one thinks that marriage is more of a religious or societal/legal institution, I think the "proof" of the proposition will depend on how one conducts the search. The historical record isn't complete, so the answer you get will depend on the assumptions you use.

So, we're here, even if we don't all agree on how we got here.

What seems to me to matter most in this context is: 1) Marriage has existed in our societies for hundreds of years. 2) Much of our legal framework and relationships with government and with the economy are influenced by whether one is married or not. 3) Equal protection arguments are compelling.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Yep, I've 'committed marriage' upon 3 sets, so far --
in my capacity as a Reverend in the Church of Universal Life. Signed the documents just like any other er, professional.

Two didn't work out.. one in weeks, t'other over several years.
Third appears to be intact, hallow'ed by each's desire to accumulate as many $$ as possible.
(Is gold thicker than blood?)

Just a tad worse than the National Average, eh?

(And No! I didn't wear my Mad Hatter hat for the ceremonies.)

But Yess! -- sorely tempted :-0
New I had another thought.
Why does a legal framework need to define "marriage"? For welfare. Which includes taxation.

Wade.

"Ah -- I take it the doorbell doesn't work?"
New thanks for proving my point
state acknoledgement of marriage has to do with who gets the goods, not what religion they are. Also point out that your link is probably transliterated as opposed to translated.
if a man has taken a wife and has not executed a marriage contract
I really dont believe that the word marriage as we understand it is the actual translation of the words being used. A little bit like watching the cartoon land of the lost. We attribute modern terms and conventions on an alien race.
New My point, too.
As far as the state it concerned, it is to do with welfare and property and taxes and such.

Wade.

"Ah -- I take it the doorbell doesn't work?"
New Marriage probably predates religion
The modern idea of religion in the US and Europe is largely derived from the Catholic concept. But marriage existed long before the Catholic church, and probably before religion in general.

The Roman concept of marriage evolved out of the the pre-Roman family/clan system. And this seems to have happened in most places, where the early governments and religions simply documented and formalized existing practices.

Jay
New I seriously doubt . . .
. . there ever was a "time before religion". Religion evolved right along with humanity. Of course, so did social order, later formulated as "law".
New Unanswerable question
That is an interesting and unanswerable question.

The capacity for superstition developed right along with human intelligence. But when superstition becomes religion is a paper thin distinction that probably depends mostly on how you define religion.

Jay
New Ummm . . . paper thin?
That's a lot more substantial a separation than I'd credit it with . . . even though I'm not an atheist.
     Mark Morford on the gay heathen hordes freaking out the - (Ashton) - (52)
         Wow...not too reactionary... - (beepster) - (2)
             well look at the bright side :-) - (boxley) - (1)
                 :-) -NT - (beepster)
         Interesting point there - (drook) - (34)
             I have said that for years, the state has no business - (boxley) - (2)
                 Is it? - (drook) - (1)
                     Current law is the name on the birth certificate - (boxley)
             Re: Interesting point there - (jay) - (20)
                 Words count - (drook) - (18)
                     bing bing bing! - (beepster) - (8)
                         I view it differently. - (Another Scott) - (7)
                             You missed the implication of what I said - (drook) - (5)
                                 But the horse left the barn and is in the next county. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                                     Good idea, but DOA - (drook)
                                     marriage is a religious term not a legal term - (boxley) - (2)
                                         So they were covered on each other's insurance? - (drook) - (1)
                                             actually neither had insurance :-) - (boxley)
                             nope, my marriage was illegal in virginia - (boxley)
                     I don't think it would really work - (jay) - (8)
                         People are lazy, I'm counting on that - (drook) - (7)
                             There would be - (jay) - (6)
                                 I'm not trying to change the language people use - (drook) - (5)
                                     can we use a fade away shot - (boxley)
                                     Which isn't enough - (jay) - (3)
                                         in the real world the fundie gets fired - (boxley)
                                         actually a real world example link - (boxley)
                                         What? - (beepster)
                 bassackwards - (boxley)
             Interesting discussion. - (static) - (9)
                 I think that where you stand depends on where you sit. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                     Yep, I've 'committed marriage' upon 3 sets, so far -- - (Ashton)
                     I had another thought. - (static)
                     thanks for proving my point - (boxley) - (1)
                         My point, too. - (static)
                 Marriage probably predates religion - (jay) - (3)
                     I seriously doubt . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (2)
                         Unanswerable question - (jay) - (1)
                             Ummm . . . paper thin? - (Andrew Grygus)
         So this thread became about who gets to define language... - (CRConrad) - (13)
             1. doesnt matter, - (boxley) - (1)
                 You're missing the point by a mile, as usual. - (CRConrad)
             Define "married" - (drook) - (4)
                 Married=Living in a civil union(religious blessing optional) - (CRConrad) - (3)
                     Dammit, you're making a good point - (drook)
                     Well said. Here's an interesting summary. - (Another Scott)
                     Stuart Chase ceased revolving-in-grave upon this utterance - (Ashton)
             Each religion can define it for themselves - (mhuber) - (5)
                 Sure-if they also name it for themselves.'Coz "marriage"... - (CRConrad) - (4)
                     FWIW, this Xian agrees with me - (drook) - (3)
                         I'm dealing with this right now - (crazy) - (2)
                             I can picture the joke now - (boxley) - (1)
                                 It writes itself. - (crazy)

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