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New CSM on Evangelical seppuku
http://www.csmonitor.../p09s01-coop.html


The coming evangelical collapse
An anti-Christian chapter in Western history is about to begin. But out of the ruins, a new vitality and integrity will rise.

By Michael Spencer
from the March 10, 2009 edition


ONEIDA, KY. - We are on the verge – within 10 years – of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity. This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West.

Within two generations, evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its occupants. (Between 25 and 35 percent of Americans today are Evangelicals.) In the "Protestant" 20th century, Evangelicals flourished. But they will soon be living in a very secular and religiously antagonistic 21st century.

This collapse will herald the arrival of an anti-Christian chapter of the post-Christian West. Intolerance of Christianity will rise to levels many of us have not believed possible in our lifetimes, and public policy will become hostile toward evangelical Christianity, seeing it as the opponent of the common good.

Millions of Evangelicals will quit. Thousands of ministries will end. Christian media will be reduced, if not eliminated. Many Christian schools will go into rapid decline. I'm convinced the grace and mission of God will reach to the ends of the earth. But the end of evangelicalism as we know it is close.

WHY IS THIS GOING TO HAPPEN?

1. Evangelicals have identified their movement with the culture war and with political conservatism. This will prove to be a very costly mistake. Evangelicals will increasingly be seen as a threat to cultural progress. Public leaders will consider us bad for America, bad for education, bad for children, and bad for society.

The evangelical investment in moral, social, and political issues has depleted our resources and exposed our weaknesses. Being against gay marriage and being rhetorically pro-life will not make up for the fact that massive majorities of Evangelicals can't articulate the Gospel with any coherence. We fell for the trap of believing in a cause more than a faith.

2. We Evangelicals have failed to pass on to our young people an orthodox form of faith that can take root and survive the secular onslaught. Ironically, the billions of dollars we've spent on youth ministers, Christian music, publishing, and media has produced a culture of young Christians who know next to nothing about their own faith except how they feel about it. Our young people have deep beliefs about the culture war, but do not know why they should obey scripture, the essentials of theology, or the experience of spiritual discipline and community. Coming generations of Christians are going to be monumentally ignorant and unprepared for culture-wide pressures.

3. There are three kinds of evangelical churches today: consumer-driven megachurches, dying churches, and new churches whose future is fragile. Denominations will shrink, even vanish, while fewer and fewer evangelical churches will survive and thrive.

4. Despite some very successful developments in the past 25 years, Christian education has not produced a product that can withstand the rising tide of secularism. Evangelicalism has used its educational system primarily to staff its own needs and talk to itself.

5. The confrontation between cultural secularism and the faith at the core of evangelical efforts to "do good" is rapidly approaching. We will soon see that the good Evangelicals want to do will be viewed as bad by so many, and much of that work will not be done. Look for ministries to take on a less and less distinctively Christian face in order to survive.

6. Even in areas where Evangelicals imagine themselves strong (like the Bible Belt), we will find a great inability to pass on to our children a vital evangelical confidence in the Bible and the importance of the faith.

7. The money will dry up.

WHAT WILL BE LEFT?

[. . . . .]



Pace, pace O mio Dio!

Mein schatz hats grün so gern

Hello, I must be going ...
--RIP Groucho
New the real problem is point #7
the only thing the leaders really worry about.

Almost all of the locals where I live attend various churches. Its a social thing as well as getting decent education for the kids as the public schools are in a death march to the bottom here. We have county run public schools that have lost their accrediation. The private schools were started as a backlash to integration, now they are integrated and staffed with people wanting to teach. RE is an afterthought in many of them.
thanx,
bill
New Re: CSM on Evangelical seppuku
A lot of his points just restate each other, but I read it as three core points.

1. Evangelicals have identified their movement with the culture war and with political conservatism. This will prove to be a very costly mistake. Evangelicals will increasingly be seen as a threat to cultural progress. Public leaders will consider us bad for America, bad for education, bad for children, and bad for society.

Replace will with already has. A good chunk of the failure of the Republican party in the last election can be attributed to the conflict between the religious wing and the rest of the party. I expect he is right about it getting worse for the fundamentalist evangelicals. The popularity driven mega-churches will simply switch to a more politically palatable position at some point.

2. We Evangelicals have failed to pass on to our young people an orthodox form of faith that can take root and survive the secular onslaught. Ironically, the billions of dollars we've spent on youth ministers, Christian music, publishing, and media has produced a culture of young Christians who know next to nothing about their own faith except how they feel about it.

A constant problem for religions. It's easy to generally shape the belief of your own kids, but unless a society is really repressive, it's hard to fix their exact beliefs.

This is a particular problem for Evangelicals because the movement is actually a bunch of different little movements under one umbrella. As soon as you start getting into the details you get into conflicts between the groups, so the leaders and teachers prefer to dwell on the generalities they share instead.

7. The money will dry up.

I'm sure there will be a big drop, but I'm not so sure it will have a big impact. A lot of the casual donations that will dry up go to superficial mega-church and TV preachers who spend most of it building new churches and on themselves. The money that drives a lot of the important background stuff actually comes from a handful of big donors, who are unlikely to cut back that much.

Jay
New Echoes of "real conservatives"
Remember the discussion of how Bush was a hero to the right, until he became an embarrassment and a liability, then they all realized that he was never a "real conservative". No one can prove that the "conservative agenda" is damaging to society, because someone will always say that a "real conservative agenda" has never been implemented.

That's the feeling I get from this article. Someone from the "inside" is finally saying openly the things that have been painfully obvious to everyone else for years. But instead of questioning the movement, he says that those actions will damage "real evangelical Christianity".

New rule: If you are part of a large successful movement, and you defend it against all criticism ... when that movement becomes less successful, you're not allowed to make all the same criticisms, but say that those issues were not what the movement was really about.
--

Drew
New Re: Echoes of "real conservatives"
Remember the discussion of how Bush was a hero to the right, until he became an embarrassment and a liability, then they all realized that he was never a "real conservative". No one can prove that the "conservative agenda" is damaging to society, because someone will always say that a "real conservative agenda" has never been implemented.

On the one hand, I know where you are coming from and it is certainly a common way of jettisoning a now unpopular leader. On the other hand, you can make a good case that the Bush administration was neither politically or religiously conservative. The only thing the Bush administration was consistent about where authoritarian issues, even on business issues they where willing to shift with the political wind.

Jay
New That was my reaction as well.
New Goes for lefties too, though.
Socialism/Communism/WhatEverTheFuckYouWannaCallIt can never be blamed for the excesses and failures of the Soviet Union / Albania / North Korea / Whatever, because "that wasn't REAL socialism".
--
Christian R. Conrad
Same old username (as above), same old GMail.
New Holy Pyramid Scheme
Evengelicals are about to take a big hit. Not from some backlash, not from secularism or some anti-Christian movement. From math.

Evangelism is God's own pyramid scheme. You get your divine brownie points from converting others. And those converts go out and get more converts. Logarithmic. No converts, no points. OK, maybe a few points, but it's like trying to do Amway by selling product. The real purpose is converts. That's what "evangelism" means. That's why the mega-churches and the Madison Avenue crap works so well - it's all about bringing them in. Once you get them, well, you screw around with phony-ass issues like pretending blastocysts are people and gay marriage is a threat to other marriage.

Like any pyramid scheme, eventually you run out of marks. The last level is out there not getting their lives validated because there is nobody left to convert. Regular Christianity hit that wall at various times and resorted to conversion by force and sending missionaries to Africa. But those are temporary solutions - the logarithmic math eats Africa in no time flat and conversion by force is expensive, unsatisfying, and doesn't keep up with logarithmic math for long. Regular Christianity switched over to other ways of keeping score. My own parish has a missionary force in Mexico where there is nobody to convert. Our missionaries perform lots of good works, but they are more likely to score a conversion while reporting to the parish than while in the field. That makes them not evangelical.

Evangelicals are going to start losing because the market is saturated. And people are going to drop out in significant numbers because they are losing. One might hope that most of those who drop out will switch to seeking meaning in feeding the hungry or becoming more compassionate people or something, but history suggests most will find some other club to try to get others to join.
New {chortle}
I Loves It when ya talks dirty-math to me..

Reminds me of the 'discussion' amongst Mozart, the other -large- music-honcho !=Salieri -- re whether the human 'ear' could handle only a certain number of notes (per diem, I suppose..)

The asses present concluded, about The Magic Flute [!!]: Too many notes.

Meanwhile in 2009, we have millions still counting the #angels/pin-head, not realizing that this means: pin-head (and not the head-of-a-pin.)

But I digress -- which is still better than Conversion via AK-47, I wot.

Dear Lord: please protect me from your followers.
(I said that.. just, not first)
New naw, that problem has been fixed, convert the dead
New Yeah, heard about that
Must lack a certain visceral impact for 'em, once you take the necros out of the picture. 'Course, that might be a significant chunk...
New Nah, he means the Mormons.
The Mormon Church is a conservative institution whose fascination with genealogy stems from complicated religious beliefs about the importance of identifying and "saving" the departed. As a result, it has amassed an unparalleled wealth of genealogical data, so the unveiling of the FamilySearch beta is being treated as a major event by genealogy buffs.
Link:

http://www.wired.com...7.07/mormons.html
Alex
New Good solution!
Consumes the resource (heathens open to conversion) linearly instead of logarithmically, unless the mythology allows the dead to convert each other.

New They should require the dead to sign . . .
. . a certificate of conversion. That would make it a lot more interesting - there could be monthly contests to select the highest "producer", the one submitting the most signed certificates. A weekend vacation to lovely Provo could be the prize.

The way it is, how can one be sure the dead aren't just laughing in their faces?
New Now you're talking Chicago voter registration rolls. :)
Alex
     CSM on Evangelical seppuku - (Ashton) - (14)
         the real problem is point #7 - (boxley)
         Re: CSM on Evangelical seppuku - (jay) - (4)
             Echoes of "real conservatives" - (drook) - (3)
                 Re: Echoes of "real conservatives" - (jay)
                 That was my reaction as well. -NT - (Another Scott)
                 Goes for lefties too, though. - (CRConrad)
         Holy Pyramid Scheme - (mhuber) - (7)
             {chortle} - (Ashton)
             naw, that problem has been fixed, convert the dead -NT - (boxley) - (5)
                 Yeah, heard about that - (jake123) - (1)
                     Nah, he means the Mormons. - (a6l6e6x)
                 Good solution! - (mhuber) - (2)
                     They should require the dead to sign . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                         Now you're talking Chicago voter registration rolls. :) -NT - (a6l6e6x)

More aluminum-magnesium batons than you can shake a leg at.
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