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New Homogenity over all.
The reasons are practical. IE is a nontrivial component

So - only trivial 'components' are permissible to replace.

And - who judges? Microsoft's legal and marketing departments, no? After all, MS declared that IE was integrated before MS developers smeared it across so many .dlls and forced explorer to depend on it.
you've probably never done hard time trying to get a nontrivial Java product to work correctly under several different vendors' JVMs

I've run ide's across different jvms (and platforms) with little or no problems - does the definition of 'nontrivial' mean that it didn't work when you tried it?
risk that neither Microsoft nor any other software developer in the same situation has any reason to take. And I believe it is unfair and unreasonable to require them to take it. Your thoughts?

Require? Funny, nobody asked MS to replace it's own product with competing ones (unless as a punishment for breaking the law as egregiously as they have been shown to).

This is not the same thing as allowing OEM's to customize products that they pay for.

More -
who do you think the user will blame? Whose brand do you think the user will lose confidence in?

Hmmm. Let's see. Let's say a Compaq product has a problem, and user A can't run his programs. He calls Compaq for support, and still can't get his stuff to run. Then he calls MS for support, and MS has him reload Windows (not far-fetched, it's a common enough response from MS). Suddenly, his 'pure' MS system runs!

In this scenario, we are to believe that User A will blame Microsft, not Compaq?

Let's try this - neither MS support OR Compaq can get things to run... The user will of course ignore the brand name on the desktop in front of him as the cause, as well, right? Of course they wouldn't curse 'that Compaq piece of sh*t'.

Now, let's look at Compaq support fixing the problem. Yeah, they might blame Windows. Do you think they won't blame Windows now?

OK - now the case that a value-add from Compaq increases performance or makes the interface more appealing - this is bad for MS how? Only bad if they DON'T actually have the best product, and can't compete on quality with the OEM's value-add.

Bottom line: Right now, the OEMs bear the responsibility for support, anyway. Saying that allowing OEMs to customize systems in any way that they want is 'bad' is denying that OEM value-adds bear importance to OEM sales. Even if the OEMs botched the job, that would simply make a 'pure' Microsoft system a selling point.
How many automobile manufacturers give dealers the freedom to modify cars any which way? Don't you think there are valid reasons for that?

If I buy a car and modify it extensively, then sell it - no problem. It's been modified, the 'stock' auto mfg. is no longer required to 'support' it (though I'm required to, and may offer an extended service plan if I wish) - and has nothing more to do with it. If I do this with 50, a hundred, a thousand a day, it doesn't matter. The auto manufacturers can't stop me. If I were to do this with Microsoft products, I'd be put out of business.

Your arguments seem to be a tired rehash of the MS-apologian practice of blaming 'third party' software for every quirk and instability that end-users experience (often without investigating the problem thoroughly).

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Collapse Edited by imric Feb. 21, 2002, 05:30:40 PM EST
Homogenity over all.
The reasons are practical. IE is a nontrivial component
So - only trivial 'components' are permissible to replace. And - who judges? Microsoft's legal and marketing departments, no? After all, MS declared that IE was integrated before MS developers smeared it across so many .dlls and forced explorer to depend on it.
you've probably never done hard time trying to get a nontrivial Java product to work correctly under several different vendors' JVMs
Hmm. Have you? I know I've run ide's across different jvms (and platforms) with little or no problems - or does the definition of 'nontrivial' mean that it didn't work when you tried it?
risk that neither Microsoft nor any other software developer in the same situation has any reason to take. And I believe it is unfair and unreasonable to require them to take it. Your thoughts?
Require? Funny, nobody asked MS to replace it's own product with competing ones (unless as a punishment for breaking the law as egregiously as they have been shown to). Difference and customization - why do you insist that these things are a 'bad idea'? More -
who do you think the user will blame? Whose brand do you think the user will lose confidence in?
Hmmm. Let's see. Let's say a Compaq product has a problem, and user A can't run his programs. He calls his Compaq for support, and still can't get his stuff to run. Then he calls MS for support, and MS has him reload Windows (not far-fetched, it's a common enough response from MS). Suddenly, his 'pure' MS system runs! In this scenario, we are to believe that User A will blame Microsft, not Compaq? Let's try this - neither MS support OR Compaq can get things to run... The user will of course ignore the brand name on the desktop in front of him as the cause, as well, right? Of course they wouldn't curse 'that Compaq piece of sh*t'. Now, let's look at Compaq support fixing the problem. Yeah, they might blame Windows. Do you think they won't blame Windows now? OK - now the case that a value-add from Compaq increases performance or makes the interface more appealing - this is bad for MS how? Only bad if they DON'T actually have the best product, and can't compete on quality with the OEM's value-add. Bottom line: Right now, the OEMs bear the responsibility for support, anyway. Saying that allowing them to customize system in any way that they (the true customer, the OEM) wants is bad, is denying that OEM value-adds bear importance to OEM sales. Even if the OEMs botched the job, that would simply make a 'pure' Microsoft system a selling point.
How many automobile manufacturers give dealers the freedom to modify cars any which way? Don't you think there are valid reasons for that?
If I buy a car and modify it extensively, then sell it - no problem. It's been modified, the 'stock' auto mfg. is no longer required to 'support' it (though I'm required to, and may offer an extended service plan if I wish) - and has nothing more to do with it. If I do this with 50, a hundred, a thousand a day, it doesn't matter. The auto manufacturers can't stop me. If I were to do this with Microsoft products, I'd be put out of business. Your arguments are a tired rehash of the MS-apologian practice of blaiming 'third party' software for every quirk and instability that end-users experience (often without investigating the problem thoroughly).

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
     Judge order MS to hand over source code - (JayMehaffey) - (149)
         Re: Judge order MS to hand over source code - (Yendor)
         What a precedent! - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
             If it's true, CKK certainly has guts - (tonytib)
         Holy mother of pearl! - (Silverlock)
         Interesting (?) vote percentages - (Ashton) - (1)
             I'm wondering about the size of the fine - (Silverlock)
         How to test it? - (Brandioch) - (4)
             General idea - (JayMehaffey) - (3)
                 Obfuscation. - (static) - (2)
                     Re: Obfuscation (I guess you're against it...) - (jb4) - (1)
                         OT: I am getting *so* many comments about by my icon! :-) -NT - (static)
         Nuttiness - (Squidley) - (137)
             Semantics - (wharris2) - (136)
                 Re: Semantics - (Squidley) - (135)
                     But it's not modular. - (wharris2) - (122)
                         No? - (Squidley) - (121)
                             No. - (Another Scott) - (7)
                                 I Respectfully Disagree - (Squidley) - (6)
                                     Your questions are answered in news stories. - (Another Scott)
                                     If it >IS< "modular"............. - (Brandioch) - (4)
                                         Re: If it >IS< "modular"............. - (Squidley) - (3)
                                             Definitions vs. designs. - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                                 Re: Definitions vs. designs. - (Squidley) - (1)
                                                     So, now we look at history. - (Brandioch)
                             What? - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                 Oops, You're Right! - (Squidley)
                             Modules that cannot be replaced or removed - (imric) - (76)
                                 Re: Modules that cannot be replaced or removed - (Squidley) - (75)
                                     No. - (imric) - (74)
                                         APIs & Modularity - (Squidley) - (73)
                                             Re: APIs & Modularity - (drewk) - (71)
                                                 Re: APIs & Modularity - (Squidley) - (69)
                                                     This is really funny. - (Andrew Grygus) - (23)
                                                         Re: This is really funny. - (Squidley) - (22)
                                                             MS should control PC configuration? - (warmachine) - (6)
                                                                 Re: MS should control PC configuration? - (Squidley) - (5)
                                                                     you are absolutely right - (boxley)
                                                                     I haven't met one that wouldn't. - (Brandioch)
                                                                     A natural monopoly would be leverage into a free market. - (warmachine)
                                                                     How the monopoly works. - (bepatient)
                                                                     Homogenity over all. - (imric)
                                                             Re: This is really funny. - (Steven A S) - (2)
                                                                 Have to have a command processor? - (wharris2) - (1)
                                                                     On Win9X - (Steven A S)
                                                             Re: This is really funny. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                                 Architectures - (Squidley)
                                                             Re: This is really funny. - (pwhysall) - (9)
                                                                 Re: This is really funny. - (Squidley) - (8)
                                                                     And just exactly how long would it take . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (6)
                                                                         Thank you... - (bepatient)
                                                                         Besides which ... - (drewk)
                                                                         Re: And just exactly how long would it take . . - (Squidley)
                                                                         But would it work? - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                                             Kinda like coding around non-standard behaviour in IE? :) -NT - (Meerkat) - (1)
                                                                                 Oh shock non-standard IE behavior? (me quivers) - (wharris2)
                                                                     OK - (pwhysall)
                                                     You ARE Michel Le Moron! - (jb4) - (44)
                                                         Dont accuse - (boxley)
                                                         Naah, just went to the same . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (41)
                                                             Re: Naah, just went to the same . . . - (Squidley) - (40)
                                                                 Cosmic-proportion delusions of grandeur from a bad $hilling - (CRConrad) - (39)
                                                                     Nah. - (imric) - (38)
                                                                         No, I'm fairly sure he's serious; he's $hilling for real. - (CRConrad) - (37)
                                                                             Squidley-Diddley; - (imric) - (36)
                                                                                 Yeah, but if you're stupid enough, why let that stop you? - (CRConrad) - (35)
                                                                                     I can't believe you didn't catch this - (Silverlock) - (6)
                                                                                         Yeah, I know - but how the heck could I... - (CRConrad)
                                                                                         I used my usual spell checker . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (4)
                                                                                             Just tried your spell checker - (Silverlock) - (2)
                                                                                                 Hmmm . . no such message from Google here . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                                                                                     Those damn bats. They're everywhere. - (Silverlock)
                                                                                             So much for those right-wing "think tank" innaleckchuls, eh? -NT - (CRConrad)
                                                                                     I always have to laugh... - (admin) - (16)
                                                                                         Well if Squidley is not... - (ben_tilly) - (15)
                                                                                             Re: Well if Squidley is not... - (Squidley) - (14)
                                                                                                 And what makes you think you look any different here? -NT - (CRConrad) - (13)
                                                                                                     Why, your presence, of course! - (Squidley) - (12)
                                                                                                         I guess MSFT is expecting to lose, then... -NT - (jake123) - (11)
                                                                                                             Sure! Just like they always do :-) -NT - (Squidley) - (10)
                                                                                                                 It ain't over til Judge K-K sings. - (Ashton) - (4)
                                                                                                                     Re: It ain't over til Judge K-K sings. - (Squidley) - (3)
                                                                                                                         My what colorful intellekchul epithets you have - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                         Yes, but over at Petrele's VarLinux forum . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                                                                                                             Re: Yes, but over at Petrele(y)'s VarLinux forum . . - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                 I think they're going to lose badly this time. - (jake123) - (4)
                                                                                                                     I think you're way optimistic - (wharris2) - (3)
                                                                                                                         I don't. - (jake123) - (2)
                                                                                                                             Gates, Ballmer scared? - (wharris2) - (1)
                                                                                                                                 Yeah... you're right. - (jake123)
                                                                                     Hey! - (imric) - (10)
                                                                                         *Snort* - (Silverlock)
                                                                                         "Training ground"? Dunno... Let's hope it's more like... - (CRConrad) - (8)
                                                                                             I noticed (possibly coincidence...possibly not) - (bepatient) - (7)
                                                                                                 Really.. - (Ashton) - (6)
                                                                                                     Karsten gave me the archives... - (bepatient) - (5)
                                                                                                         True - the roster was larger (and heavier?) - (Ashton) - (4)
                                                                                                             If you are nice - (imric) - (3)
                                                                                                                 Would have to be ftp... - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                                                                     Legal - (kmself) - (1)
                                                                                                                         Thats essentially my thinking. - (bepatient)
                                                         You ARE too kind! - (Squidley)
                                                 Intent - (Andrew Grygus)
                                             No. - (imric)
                             Are you for real?!? - (jb4) - (33)
                                 Hey, is that a trick question? - (Squidley) - (32)
                                     No tricks, just treats - (jb4) - (30)
                                         No, gems! - (Squidley) - (29)
                                             Bwaaahaaahhaaaa!! - (Silverlock) - (1)
                                                 Re: Bwaaahaaahhaaaa!! - (Squidley)
                                             Are you REALLY that dense (or do they pay for stupidity?) - (jb4) - (4)
                                                 There you go again with the trick questions. - (Squidley) - (3)
                                                     NTFS != HTML - (jb4) - (2)
                                                         Re: NTFS != HTML - (Squidley) - (1)
                                                             Don't bogart tht joint, my friend... - (jb4)
                                             Why did you drop the other threads? - (Brandioch) - (6)
                                                 Need... some... WD-40... - (Squidley) - (5)
                                                     Ummm . . aren't you working overtime? - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                                         I could shill 18/7..........if...........the price was right - (Brandioch)
                                                     A kinder, gentler, Microsoft at work... - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                         Be aware that this new policy . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                                             I have a remedy, then: - (Ashton)
                                             Wow... - (bepatient) - (14)
                                                 Now, now... - (Squidley) - (13)
                                                     I could almost grant such a Pollyanna view of it all.. - (Ashton) - (10)
                                                         As I have been saying for years . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (7)
                                                             Do you mean that *recently* the CRM folks spilled their guts - (Ashton) - (6)
                                                                 Siebel is the main victim here. - (Andrew Grygus) - (5)
                                                                     Speaking of Accounting software . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                                                         Scary.. 7 years to find all the important glitches - (Ashton)
                                                                     Andrew, care to update the current status? -NT - (drewk) - (2)
                                                                         Update - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                                                             And Thank God for that. -NT - (folkert)
                                                         Quick question: - (jb4) - (1)
                                                             'a' as in the Sinclair Lewis book, "Babbitt" Still: :-\ufffd -NT - (Ashton)
                                                     *chuckle* - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                         Re: *chuckle* - (Squidley)
                                     I guess you didn't read the MS memos from the trial. - (Another Scott)
                     *sigh* Again? - (ben_tilly) - (9)
                         Re: *sigh* Again? - (Squidley) - (8)
                             But they don't have to be non-working. - (Brandioch) - (7)
                                 Re: But they don't have to be non-working. - (Squidley) - (6)
                                     Now that would be stupid. - (Brandioch) - (5)
                                         Re: Now that would be stupid. - (Squidley) - (4)
                                             Pick one - (drewk)
                                             Purpose - (Steve Lowe)
                                             Bzzzzzt! - (Brandioch)
                                             And another thing ... - (drewk)
                     I believe the anti-trust trial showed IE wasn't modular - (warmachine) - (1)
                         +5 Informative. - (static)

Is it me, or is the band getting bigger?
241 ms