Russell wrote a *lot* about religion.

Post #291,766 by Another Scott 8/28/07 11:07:37 AM Reply	Russell wrote a lot about religion. Part of the problem with the discussion of Agnosticism versus Atheism is that the terms morph over time, as Matthew illustrated below. (It becomes easier if one considers the roots of the words: [link\|http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=CBN&defl=en&q=define:Gnosis&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title\|Gnosis] and [link\|http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=yV2&q=define%3Atheism&btnG=Search\|Theism], but meanings change over time.) In Seckel's collection, [link\|http://www.amazon.com/Bertrand-Russell-Religion-Great-Philosophy/dp/0879753234/\|Bertrand Russell on God and Religion], Chapter 4 is a reprint of an interview in Look from 1953: Are agnostics atheists? No. An atheist, like a Christian, holds that we can know whether or not there is a God. The Christian holds that we can know there is a God: the atheist, that we can know there is not. The agnostic suspends judgment, saying that there are not sufficient grounds either for affirmation or for denial. At the same time, an agnostic may hold that the existence of God, though not impossible, is very improbable; he may even hold that it is so improbable that it is not worth considering in practice. In that case, he is not far removed from atheism. His attitude may be that which a careful philosopher would have toward the gods of ancient Greece. If I were asked to prove* that Zeus and Poseidon and Hera and the rest of the Olympians do not exist, I should be at a loss to find conclusive arguments. An agnostic may think that the Christian God as improbable as the Olympians; in that case, he is, for practical purposes, at one with the atheists. IOW, Bertie was generally very careful in expressing his opinions, but for all practical purposes he was an Atheist, especially considering his hostility to Christianity (which is the most-commonly used contrast to Atheism, at least in the West). Cheers, Scott. * Many freethinkers do not accept this definition. For them atheism means without theism or without a belief in god or gods - Ed.
Post #291,769 by danreck 8/28/07 11:28:52 AM Reply	Understood and thanks... I put a link in above (post to Pete) to point to Russell's Teapot ([link\|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot\|http://en.wikipedia..../Russell's_teapot]). I do like Dawkin's summary at the bottom as a primer for why so many folks do not want view organized religion as just another shelf in the market of ideas. Given its history, it would be folly not to be extremely skeptical about other's motivations when getting into the "my God's bigger than your God" types of debates. It has been a few generations since the holocaust, however; and to many who casually look at the "be-attitudes" without the historical tyranny of the Crusades and the Dark Ages, find it just another plausible explanation. When I defend "a person's" right to be left alone with their quest for connectedness, I guess that I sort of assume that the person understands the skeletons in their deist's closets. This is probably a naive assumption on my part. In the historical context of Russell's time, he probably still was taking a huge risk by taking a position against societal norms. If I am to believe that 90% of Americans "believe in God" (which I don't - I understand that we could probably shave about 20-30% off that number depending on how the surveys are phrased), then this board and our posts would label us as "traitors" and lost sheep. We can only hope that during the next inquisition that the mob has read the parables... ;-) Just a few thoughts, Danno
Post #291,771 by Another Scott 8/28/07 11:53:13 AM 8/28/07 11:58:23 AM Reply	Thanks. :-) Don't let months pass between posts, ya hear? Beating up on only beep gets boring after a while. [image\|http://www.sondrak.com/archive/hhg.jpg\|0\|HHG\|171\|241] Cheers, Scott. Edited by Another Scott Aug. 28, 2007, 11:58:23 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #291,781 by Another Scott 8/28/07 1:52:53 PM Reply	On religious surveys... Danno writes: If I am to believe that 90% of Americans "believe in God" (which I don't - I understand that we could probably shave about 20-30% off that number depending on how the surveys are phrased)... It's difficult to do a meaningful social survey. You have to do it in a way that accounts for socio-economic differences (telephone v.s personal interview; time of day; what to do about people who don't want to participate?; etc.). The [link\|http://www.norc.org/homepage.htm\|National Opinion Research Center] is very good in doing meaningful surveys (e.g. if they pick you for a respondent, they'll work very hard to get you to answer their questions). They're best known for the [link\|http://www.norc.org/projects/General+Social+Survey.htm\|General Social Survey]. In a 2004 [link\|http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/040819/protestants.shtml\|story]: The increasing secularization of American society has taken a particular toll on Protestant identity, presenting the prospect that after more than 200 years of history, the United States may soon no longer be a majority Protestant country, according to a new study by the National Opinion Research Center. The percentage of the population that is Protestant has been falling and will likely fall below 50 percent by mid-decade or may already be there, the study showed. Between 1972 and 1993, the Protestant share of the population remained stable, but then a decline set in. In 1993, 63 percent of Americans were Protestant, but by 2002, the number was 52 percent, the NORC research found. During the same time, the number of people who said they had no religion went up from 9 percent to nearly 14 percent. The survey listed people as Protestant if they indicated they were members of a particular Protestant denomination, such as Baptist, United Methodist or Episcopalian. Membership in many of the Protestant denominations has been declining. [...] Some results of the 2006 GSS are discussed by Kim at [link\|http://atbozzo.blogspot.com/2007/06/science-and-religion-2006-gss.html\|Tom Bozzo] and other blogs linked there. Some of the graphs are disturbing, to say the least, if you are worried about the state of basic scientific knowledge in the US. While professed religion doesn't correlate strongly with wrong answers to many questions, it does to others and the amount of education doesn't seem to matter in changing the percent correct in those cases. As a commenter on Pharyngula [link\|http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/06/lies_your_religion_told_you.php\|notes]: With a little college education, a Catholic becomes about as smart as your average unbeliever. ;-) Another thing to keep in mind is that the answers to the questions can be contradictory: [link\|http://publicdata.norc.org:41000/gssbeta/GSSVariables_subject.html\|General Social Survey (Beta)]: Variable GODRIGHT : GOD'S LAWS SHOULD DECIDE RIGHT AND WRONG\nPreQuestion Text\nHow successful do you think the government in America is nowadays in each of the following areas?\n\nLiteral Question\nA. Right and wrong should be based on God's laws.\n\nValues \tCategories \t N \tNW\n1 \tSTRONGLY AGREE \t 358 \t365\t 28.8%\n2 \tAGREE \t 361 \t359 \t 28.3%\n3 \tNEITHER AGREE NOR DISAGREE \t269 \t277\t 21.8%\n4 \tDISAGREE \t 155 \t158\t 12.5%\n5 \tSTRONGLY DISAGREE \t 115 \t109\t 8.5%\n0 \tNAP \t49661 \t49660\n8 \tDK \t60 \t55\n9 \tNA \t41 \t38\nSummary Statistics\nValid cases \t1258\nMissing cases \t49762\nThis variable is numeric So 57.1% Agree that Right and Wrong should be based on God's Laws (whatever they are). Variable SOCRIGHT : SOCIETY'S LAWS SHOULD DECIDE RIGHT AND WRONG\nPreQuestion Text\nHow successful do you think the government in America is nowadays in each of the following areas?\n\nLiteral Question\nB. Right and wrong should be decided by society.\n\nValues \tCategories \t N \tNW\n1 \tSTRONGLY AGREE \t 113 \t109 \t 8.8%\n2 \tAGREE \t418 \t424 \t34.6%\n3 \tNEITHER AGREE NOR DISAGREE \t309 \t309 \t25.1%\n4 \tDISAGREE \t 241 \t238 \t19.4%\n5 \tSTRONGLY DISAGREE \t142 \t150 \t12.1%\n0 \tNAP \t49661 \t49660\n8 \tDK \t59 \t58\n9 \tNA \t77 \t72\nSummary Statistics\nValid cases \t1223\nMissing cases \t49797\nThis variable is numeric But only 31.5% disagree when asked whether right and wrong should be decided by society. As you note, the answers depend on how the questions are asked. ;-) The GSS does have ~ 88% Agreement on a question asking about belief in God (Variable GODCHNGE), but the percentages are lower if you look at the questions in more detail (e.g., (Variable THEISM - which asks if God is concerned about every human being personally. Only 74% agree.). Cheers, Scott.

Welcome to IWETHEY!