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New question for the group
watching ice road truckers. They state that pulling a heavy load over ice at more than 15 MPH can cause crevasses and accidents. As long as the load is distributed and the tires maintain a constant pressure (no hopping or bouncing) I dont buy that theory. I think 40-50 mph should make no difference, higher speeds could in rutted conditions cause bouncing effects and weaken the road.
thoughts?
thanx
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Perhaps it has to do with the longitudinal spacing of tires.
I saw that, or similar show, some time ago and do not recall if the spacing of tires is any different from say an 18-wheeler. But, if you imagine yourself as a spot on the ice that will pressed on by say the rightmost tires. You'll experience a "bump.........bump.bump..............................bump.bump". I suspect that the paired bumps, if close in time might act like a jack-hammer. But, it's just a SWAG.
Alex

Nobody has a more sacred obligation to obey the law than those who make the law. -- Sophocles (496? - 406 BCE)
New Heating?
I haven't seen the show.

Perhaps running the trucks faster causes more heating of the tires and more melting of the ice and that's what causes the ruts, etc.

Just a WAG.

[...]

[link|http://www.popularmechanics.com/outdoors/adventures/4212314.html?page=2|Popular Mechanics] talks about the mechanism. I was assuming the roads were over permafrost. ;-)

[edit:] A quote from the article:

The basic mechanics of ice roads have been known for decades. As a laden truck moves over ice, it creates a shallow depression all around it \ufffd a sort of bowl in the ice, several inches deep and many yards across. The greater the speed, the deeper the depression. Above a critical velocity that varies with local conditions, a truck can damage the roadbed so severely that the next vehicle to come along will break through the ice. For this reason, the top speed on the Tibbitt to Contwoyto route is usually about 22 mph. In some stretches, as on Waite Lake, the maximum is just a few miles per hour.

As the concavity moves along beneath the truck, the displaced water forms pressure waves under the surface. When these waves reach the lakeshore, they bounce back, and the resulting interference with incoming waves can push the ice up and create a blowout. Whenever possible, engineers build ice roads at an angle to nearby shorelines to prevent blowouts under the roadbed itself.

Every day, a crew drives along the road, generating a profile of ice thickness with ground-penetrating radar. They drag an antenna, which sends 400-MHz radio waves down into the lake. A computer calculates the ice thickness based on the time it takes the signal to return from the ice-water interface. For even greater accuracy in calculating how much weight the road can bear, the data is calibrated against measurements taken from boreholes that workers drill with power augers.

One of the men driving the road with us today is Sam Proskin, a geotechnical engineer whose firm has been hired to help better understand what's going on beneath the ice. Proskin is trying to develop multidimensional maps of problem spots by using more sophisticated radar. This, he hopes, will help solve a vexing mystery: how water flow, sandbars and other subsurface features affect the underside of the ice. Such an understanding could help engineers re-route the road to minimize problems like the one here on Waite Lake.

"The physical properties of ice are well understood under laboratory conditions," Proskin says, "but when you extrapolate it into the scale of kilometers of road, it's a little more difficult to understand. It changes, it flows, it gets brittle. The ice is like a living thing."

For the roadbuilders, that means working with phenomena for which there is limited scientific understanding. For example, driving at a speed and weight that is appropriate for an ice sheet makes the ice stronger. Truckers say that they're "driving down the frost," but there's no evidence that such a physical process takes place: It's just another mystery of the ice. "Ice is an engineering challenge," Proskin says. "It's a solid near its melting point. If you heated steel to near its melting point and put loads on it, it would act strangely, too."


Cheers,
Scott.
Expand Edited by Another Scott July 12, 2007, 08:55:12 AM EDT
New Ice flexes, floats on water
The wave preceding the truck can be a problem when coming onshore, IIRC.

I can see the same sort of wave cracking the the ice at given velocities, too... It's not just the strength of the ice, it's the effect of the truck on the water beneath.

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New Sheet as a whole bending?
My thought would be that the ice sheet may be flexing over a large area under the weight. Such a large stressed area could crack if shifted too fast, even if it is safe a lower speeds.

Jay
New OK, my theory.
Under heavy pressure ice liquifies. Perhaps at a higher speed supercooled water can't get out of the way and rolls ahead of the tires being forced into cracks. When the pressure passes it instantly freezes and expands, breaking loose chips of pavement and opening cracks wider for the next pass.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New IIRC that was the mechanism found, for initiating fractures
in massive structures - an effort to explain observations of effects seen far from the edge, in masses presumed to be in static condition / equilibrium. But apparently weren't.

My instinct would be Helmholzian: the "troops in-step crossing shaky bridges" resonance effect.

If the effect is described as a result of, "just going faster" - that would seem to negate this thought, except: during (even small rates of) acceleration - successive resonances of the truck-ice-water system could occur, do the mischief via the magic of nodes.

If due solely to exact speed maintained at resonance - then the truck would leave a trail of mangled ice pieces behind (?)
It is a dynamic system.

Experiments needed.

New Im leaning towards wave form now
as speed increases so does the wave from, this causes fractures because the force is moving faster when it hits the shallows. repetitive shocks weakens the ice offshore
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
     question for the group - (boxley) - (7)
         Perhaps it has to do with the longitudinal spacing of tires. - (a6l6e6x)
         Heating? - (Another Scott)
         Ice flexes, floats on water - (imric)
         Sheet as a whole bending? - (JayMehaffey)
         OK, my theory. - (Andrew Grygus) - (2)
             IIRC that was the mechanism found, for initiating fractures - (Ashton) - (1)
                 Im leaning towards wave form now - (boxley)

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