Huh? [Insert perplexed dog picture here]

Post #284,638 by altmann 5/14/07 4:45:23 PM Reply	Huh? [Insert perplexed dog picture here] -- Chris Altmann
Post #284,641 by boxley 5/14/07 5:05:30 PM Reply	here from here [link\|http://www.microsoft.com/technet/archive/ntwrkstn/evaluate/featfunc/kernelwp.mspx?mfr=true\|http://www.microsoft...lwp.mspx?mfr=true] 4Commercial implementations of the Carnegie-Mellon University Mach microkernel operating system, for example, typically run at least all file system, networking, and memory management code in kernel mode. so claiming kernel IP while running on a tweaked Open Source kernel. Even though Richard Rashid has worked for $MS since 1991 I doubt that his work was untainted by prior art. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #284,651 by altmann 5/14/07 6:06:10 PM Reply	Umm That doesn't say or mean "the NT kernel sits on top of Mach". -- Chris Altmann
Post #284,652 by boxley 5/14/07 6:15:58 PM Reply	it does, maybe I need a better source Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #284,654 by boxley 5/14/07 6:53:36 PM Reply	links [link\|http://chronicle.com/colloquylive/2003/02/microsoft/\|http://chronicle.com...003/02/microsoft/] Some of the most well-respected software in the world got its start in the academic world. The Mach kernel from Carnegie Mellon University is one example. Microsoft, as I have read, has borrowed a number of technologies from Mach to make Windows 2000 and Windows XP possible. How do the best student programmers protect the originality of their work from Microsoft on a system like Palladium? And how can a new and energetic software developer possibly innovate under a system as closed as Palladium? [link\|http://www.dimi.uniud.it/~lenisa/unix-history.html\|http://www.dimi.uniu...unix-history.html] David Cutler leaves DEC and joins Microsoft (October 31) to develop Windows NT. Microsoft begins evaluating the Mach Kernel. coincidence? mail between the MS folks [link\|http://discussms.hosting.lsoft.com/SCRIPTS/WA-MSD.EXE?A2=ind0002d&L=dcom&D=0&P=5898\|http://discussms.hos...L=dcom&D=0&P=5898] Thanks for your response. This makes sense. Steve I have read "Inside Windows NT" and understood it. It also says in section 4.2.2. that initializing address spaces is expensive (relatively) and that is why threads exist and also called "light weight processes" This concept of scheduling threads is not alien to me. To me it is a copy of the concepts developed in Mach kernel. [Did Rick Rashid have a say in design of NT ? [link\|http://www.research.microsoft.com/users/rashid/\|http://www.research....com/users/rashid/] ] For further reference see the paper "Mach Threads and the Unix Kernel: The Battle for Control." at the CMU site. [link\|http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/mach/public/www/doc/publications.html\|http://www.cs.cmu.ed...publications.html] Steve do I really have to forget all these things I did 8 years ago to be a Windows programmer ? :-> one more from $MS themselves [link\|http://www.microsoft.com/technet/archive/winntas/evaluate/featfunc/windowsn.mspx?mfr=true\|http://www.microsoft...wsn.mspx?mfr=true] Microsoft has called Windows NT a "multiple-personality operating system," as it was designed to support more than one application programming interface (API). This makes it is easier to provide emulation for older OS environments as well as the ability to more easily add new interfaces without requiring major changes to the system. The technique that Windows NT uses is called a "microkernel" and was influenced by the Mach microkernel developed at Carnegie Mellon University. (The kernel is the central part of operating system.) clean room IP my ass Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #284,655 by boxley 5/14/07 6:54:36 PM Reply	links [link\|http://chronicle.com/colloquylive/2003/02/microsoft/\|http://chronicle.com...003/02/microsoft/] Some of the most well-respected software in the world got its start in the academic world. The Mach kernel from Carnegie Mellon University is one example. Microsoft, as I have read, has borrowed a number of technologies from Mach to make Windows 2000 and Windows XP possible. How do the best student programmers protect the originality of their work from Microsoft on a system like Palladium? And how can a new and energetic software developer possibly innovate under a system as closed as Palladium? [link\|http://www.dimi.uniud.it/~lenisa/unix-history.html\|http://www.dimi.uniu...unix-history.html] David Cutler leaves DEC and joins Microsoft (October 31) to develop Windows NT. Microsoft begins evaluating the Mach Kernel. coincidence? mail between the MS folks [link\|http://discussms.hosting.lsoft.com/SCRIPTS/WA-MSD.EXE?A2=ind0002d&L=dcom&D=0&P=5898\|http://discussms.hos...L=dcom&D=0&P=5898] Thanks for your response. This makes sense. Steve I have read "Inside Windows NT" and understood it. It also says in section 4.2.2. that initializing address spaces is expensive (relatively) and that is why threads exist and also called "light weight processes" This concept of scheduling threads is not alien to me. To me it is a copy of the concepts developed in Mach kernel. [Did Rick Rashid have a say in design of NT ? [link\|http://www.research.microsoft.com/users/rashid/\|http://www.research....com/users/rashid/] ] For further reference see the paper "Mach Threads and the Unix Kernel: The Battle for Control." at the CMU site. [link\|http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/mach/public/www/doc/publications.html\|http://www.cs.cmu.ed...publications.html] Steve do I really have to forget all these things I did 8 years ago to be a Windows programmer ? :-> one more from $MS themselves [link\|http://www.microsoft.com/technet/archive/winntas/evaluate/featfunc/windowsn.mspx?mfr=true\|http://www.microsoft...wsn.mspx?mfr=true] Microsoft has called Windows NT a "multiple-personality operating system," as it was designed to support more than one application programming interface (API). This makes it is easier to provide emulation for older OS environments as well as the ability to more easily add new interfaces without requiring major changes to the system. The technique that Windows NT uses is called a "microkernel" and was influenced by the Mach microkernel developed at Carnegie Mellon University. (The kernel is the central part of operating system.) clean room IP my ass Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #284,656 by altmann 5/14/07 7:21:33 PM Reply	Re: links I see phrases like "copy of the concepts developed in Mach kernel", and "influenced by the Mach microkernel" which, while they would certainly be pertinent to the current discussion if the patents in question cover those concepts and techniques, does not equate to NT "sitting on top of Mach". Mac OS X. Now there's something that "sits on top of Mach". -- Chris Altmann
Post #284,662 by boxley 5/14/07 7:56:44 PM Reply	mac osx of course sits on top of mach and they admit it :-) You are right, until there is a lawsuit and the $MS source code would need to be brought in as evidence would we know for sure that NT uses a hybrid micro kernel, sitting on top of Mach :-) thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #284,684 by pwhysall 5/15/07 1:18:27 AM Reply	WhatEVar. It's been common knowledge for, oh, about twelve or thirteen years now, that NT's kernel (and hence W2K/XP/Vista's) is more like VMS than it is like anything UNIX-ish[0]. You even cited the fact that the VMS architect, Dave Cutler, had a lot to do with it. [0]That's not to say, of course, that any of the VMS goodness has made it into Windows The Product, just that there are shades of VMS The Kernel in Windows The Kernel. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]

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