FUCK! eBay sniper got me in the last 16 seconds

:-)

You gave a good explanation of how it's supposed to work. But it often doesn't work that way in practice, especially on popular items.

If I decide I'm willing to spend $50 for a Confabulator 3000, I probably would be willing to spend $50.51. That's why picking a "Maximum Bid" is difficult.

There are also comfort levels that impact sniping. You need to estimate how close you can come to the end time before placing your bid. If you've got a fast, low latency, connection you'll be able to outsnipe others on dialup or cans-and-string. If you have a large enough bid, of course.

"But you just proved my point!" No. Because without sniping software, I have to be available to place my bid at an appropriate time. Bidding, it seems to me, generally goes higher on an item that has lots of early bids than on an item that doesn't. To pay the minimum, it generally is beneficial to bid as late as possible. The group psychology drives the price and I want to pay the minimum, not just less than my maximum.

(And yes, that's just my impression.)

So, IMO, it's not just "Set your max bid and be done with it". Looking at the recent eBay history of P7120d laptop sales shows they've gone for between $910 and $1270. There are configuration differences between them (color, optical drive, HD, RAM). My guess is that the majority of the winners used sniping software.

Your mileage obviously varies.

Cheers,
Scott.

Don't think too hard about what everyone else is willing to pay. Are you willing to pay $51.50, or do you really mean you're willing to pay $52.00? Don't forget that if I really want or need an item, I budget a bit more than the thing is worth in order to secure it.

At the end of the day, items go for what people are prepared to pay. Popular items go for more than unpopular items of a similar type. You do not need sniping software. You only need sniping software if you are unable to decide how much you are willing to pay for an item.

It's really, really simple. Do your valuation for yourself, not for others - after all, it's your money you're spending, not theirs. Don't go thinking "if I bid late I'll get a bargain" because if one of the other bidders is like me, you won't; your sniping software will simply outbid me by the bid increment and you'll end up paying pretty much what you would have paid had you simply placed your maximum bid (remember, eBay autobids in increments up to your maximum bid, not your whole maximum bid immediately) but you've gone through a whole load of unnecessary sweat and bother.

eBay is exactly "set your max bid and be done with it". Note that that's not "set your max bid at the beginning of the auction", though; as I said, I tend to bid towards the end of an auction.

Post #283,600 by drewk 5/1/07 11:43:53 PM Reply	FUCK! eBay sniper got me in the last 16 seconds That blows. Guess I'll have to use me some sniping shtuffs next time. [grumble] === Kip Hawley is still an idiot. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #283,604 by Another Scott 5/2/07 12:12:36 AM Reply	Bummer. JBidWatcher works well.
Post #283,633 by folkert 5/2/07 10:03:30 AM Reply	What the HELL were you Bidding ON, ID10T?! -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned.
Post #283,648 by warmachine 5/2/07 10:59:17 AM Reply	Just bid max and be done with it You know people try to bid at the last minute. Just submit your maximum bid and leave it. If you are outbid, you aren't interested in paying more anyway. So, who cares? Go spend that money on some other junk instead. Can't you run a budget or something? Matthew Greet Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
Post #283,958 by pwhysall 5/5/07 2:10:12 AM Reply	Max bid insufficient. Assessment of value of item inadequate. You cannot be sniped if you put your maximum bid in. Simply bid what you think the item is worth and if someone else wants to bid more, they will win. No software required. (Apart from the wetware between your ears) Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]
Post #283,969 by Another Scott 5/5/07 9:21:16 AM Reply	Dunno. IME, it seems that placing a bid with my max too early isn't a way to win because someone with sniping software will win it by spending the next bid increment. Placing the bid at the last moment seems to be a better strategy on popular items. Another advantage of using sniping software is that the bid can be placed at inconvenient times, like when you're sleeping or at work. I never would have gotten this Fujitsu P7120d without using sniping software (I bid on several without it). YMMV. Cheers, Scott.
Post #283,976 by pwhysall 5/5/07 9:57:25 AM Reply	No. Here's how I work eBay. I'm never, ever sniped. I might be outbid, but I don't care about that. Here's why. I identify the item I want. I decide the absolute maximum I am willing to pay for it. This is my "maximum bid". I will not exceed this figure. If I really want an item, I may well decide on a figure in excess of what appears to be the market value for the item. This excess is my premium that I am willing to pay to secure the item. I may not place my maximum bid at the start of the auction. I will generally leave it for a couple of days before the close, just in case the seller needs to contact me or vice versa. I then place my maximum (remember, kids, "maximum bid" means "the most I am prepared to pay") bid and then ignore the auction. When the auction closes, I have won the item. Or not. If I didn't, it's because someone was prepared to pay more than me. This is key. Even if someone is willing to pay just a dollarpound or two more, that's in excess of my maximum bid. If you're not winning items, you're not assessing their value and deciding your maximum bid properly. Sniping software is pointless and you will never, ever outbid someone with a larger maximum bid than you. You would have won the camera had you decided your maximum bid correctly, and bid it. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]
Post #283,979 by Another Scott 5/5/07 10:36:49 AM Reply	Laptop. :-) You gave a good explanation of how it's supposed to work. But it often doesn't work that way in practice, especially on popular items. If I decide I'm willing to spend $50 for a Confabulator 3000, I probably would be willing to spend $50.51. That's why picking a "Maximum Bid" is difficult. There are also comfort levels that impact sniping. You need to estimate how close you can come to the end time before placing your bid. If you've got a fast, low latency, connection you'll be able to outsnipe others on dialup or cans-and-string. If you have a large enough bid, of course. "But you just proved my point!" No. Because without sniping software, I have to be available to place my bid at an appropriate time. Bidding, it seems to me, generally goes higher on an item that has lots of early bids than on an item that doesn't. To pay the minimum, it generally is beneficial to bid as late as possible. The group psychology drives the price and I want to pay the minimum, not just less than my maximum. (And yes, that's just my impression.) So, IMO, it's not just "Set your max bid and be done with it". Looking at the recent eBay history of P7120d laptop sales shows they've gone for between $910 and $1270. There are configuration differences between them (color, optical drive, HD, RAM). My guess is that the majority of the winners used sniping software. Your mileage obviously varies. Cheers, Scott.
Post #283,981 by pwhysall 5/5/07 10:57:14 AM Reply	You misunderstand the system. Don't think too hard about what everyone else is willing to pay. Are you willing to pay $51.50, or do you really mean you're willing to pay $52.00? Don't forget that if I really want or need an item, I budget a bit more than the thing is worth in order to secure it. At the end of the day, items go for what people are prepared to pay. Popular items go for more than unpopular items of a similar type. You do not need sniping software. You only need sniping software if you are unable to decide how much you are willing to pay for an item. It's really, really simple. Do your valuation for yourself, not for others - after all, it's your money you're spending, not theirs. Don't go thinking "if I bid late I'll get a bargain" because if one of the other bidders is like me, you won't; your sniping software will simply outbid me by the bid increment and you'll end up paying pretty much what you would have paid had you simply placed your maximum bid (remember, eBay autobids in increments up to your maximum bid, not your whole maximum bid immediately) but you've gone through a whole load of unnecessary sweat and bother. eBay is exactly "set your max bid and be done with it". Note that that's not "set your max bid at the beginning of the auction", though; as I said, I tend to bid towards the end of an auction. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]
Post #283,987 by Another Scott 5/5/07 11:42:03 AM Reply	No, I understand it. Yes, the item will go to the person who has the largest bid in at the end of the auction. If I were able to reliably say that I will be willing to pay $52 and will not be willing to pay $52.01, then it wouldn't be an issue. In my case, the cutoff is rarely sharp. I find it frustrating to set a bid for $52.01 and having someone get it for $52.52 because I wasn't able to revise my bid before the end of the auction (due to time constraints). (Change $52.01 to X and $52.52 to X + 0.51 as desired.) [link\|http://www.jbidwatcher.com/\|JBidWatcher] is free (though I did send him some money). It works well and gives me a good feeling. I like being able to set up a bid-time and letting it go. I like knowing that I won't easily get sniped, and I won't drive up the price early, but I recognize that perhaps I'll be outbid. Perhaps faith in it is similar to faith in pink teapots hiding behind Jupiter, but it seems to work well for me. Cheers, Scott.
Post #284,016 by warmachine 5/5/07 4:03:24 PM Reply	These people are a different species An inability to quantify the value of an object to themselves indicates lack of awareness and control of their own feelings, beliefs and instincts. In other words, they aren't sentient beings. They lack one of characterstic abilities of Homo Sapiens. They must be a different species. Matthew Greet Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
Post #284,019 by boxley 5/5/07 5:23:13 PM Reply	you have never been to a real auction have you? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #284,024 by pwhysall 5/5/07 9:06:33 PM Reply	I have. I agree with Matt. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]
Post #284,029 by warmachine 5/5/07 10:08:32 PM Reply	Yes, but so? Instead of buyers bidding till the price exceeds their limit, eBay does it for them in the same way non-virtual auctioneers can bid from a book till those stated limits are reached. Perhaps there are people who can't quantify their maximum bid price in non-virtual, as well as virtual, auctions. Their attendance in non-virtual auctions makes them true, sentient beings after all, how? Matthew Greet Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
Post #284,031 by boxley 5/5/07 11:05:09 PM Reply	they made it there without killing themselves or others. They made a living to show up with the wherewithall to buy the item. You dont see orangutans at an auction. You see people paying extroidinary amounts well in excess of the value of the item in the excitement. Not everyone can remain calm and sensible when it comes to money. If they did the american economy would have tanked years ago. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #284,036 by CRConrad 5/6/07 2:15:57 AM Reply	ICBOxleianLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #284035 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=284035\|ICBOxleianLRPD] [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #284,043 by warmachine 5/6/07 6:21:03 AM Reply	So, most Americans aren't truly sentient? Matthew Greet Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
Post #284,051 by CRConrad 5/6/07 8:54:14 AM Reply	Wow, how practical! No need to... ...re-direct the thread or anything, it's already in the correct forum. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #284,053 by pwhysall 5/6/07 9:10:27 AM Reply	I notice... ...you don't dispute the point. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]
Post #284,062 by jake123 5/6/07 10:24:54 AM Reply	Why would he? It's not like he's an American or anything....
Post #284,069 by boxley 5/6/07 11:09:51 AM Reply	you live in UK so how fucking sentient does that make you 60+ million living under a microscope with a camera for every 14 people watching your every move, rather like an ant farm than a country. 10k years ago your ancestors were living in trees, painting themselves blue and gibbering at the romans who gave up trying to knock sentience into you and left. While I on the otherhand 10k years ago my ancestors were living in trees, painting themselves blue and gibbering at the romans who gave up trying to knock sentience into us and left. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #284,075 by pwhysall 5/6/07 11:36:48 AM Reply	Muahaha. Thanks for biting, Bill. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]
Post #284,256 by jb4 5/8/07 6:10:12 PM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #284255 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=284255\|ICLRPD] jb4 "It's hard for me, you know, living in this beautiful White House, to give you a firsthand assessment." — George W. Bush, when asked if he believed Iraq was in a state of civil war (Newsweek, 26 Feb 07)
Post #284,101 by inthane-chan 5/6/07 7:33:45 PM Reply	s/Americans/humans
Post #284,037 by CRConrad 5/6/07 2:26:42 AM Reply	I practically grew up at them. And, yes, the system Peter and Matt propound is the only sensible one... But people being people, I'd say it's the ones who don't get caught up in the excitement that aren't human. On the gripping hand, though, if I understand the incremental "up-to-my-max" bid system correctly, then I'd think that does pretty much exactly what "sniping software" does, so I don't get the need for that. On the hind foot, BTW, I wonder if those REALLY big players you (don't!) see at REALLY big auctions -- van Goghs going for 60 mill at Sotheby's, that sort of thing -- leave their bids over the phone not JUST to remain anonymous, but also partly precisely in order to insulate themselves from the auction excitement (having the auction clerks doing the job of e-Bay's incremental-bid software for them). Oh yeah, almost forgot: ObFuck off and die, asshole! [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #284,352 by drewk 5/10/07 12:53:18 AM Reply	Except ... I've read several stories about people placing max bids well above the current bid, and someone always bids it up to their max. Seen some speculation that people are using multiple accounts to bid their own goods up. If they win their own stuff, they re-list it and now they now what the max bid was for the guy who just lost. FWIW I just won another copy of the same item. For my max bid. Which got bid up one hour before it ended. === Kip Hawley is still an idiot. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #284,355 by pwhysall 5/10/07 1:48:59 AM Reply	Re: Except ... And if they do that, a sniper won't help you, because they'll just use the eBay autobidder to bid it up and your sniper will obediently follow suit. I repeat: bid what you think the item is worth. If you pay that, then you're getting good value. Anything less than that is a bonus. Shill bidding? Say it ain't so! Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]
Post #284,357 by warmachine 5/10/07 2:49:18 AM Reply	Outbid? Market is out of your range. If someone does outbid you using a fake account, you'd just see it as heavy competition. Assuming the seller isn't faking, it's unlikely this competition will ease significantly for a similar item in the near future. The market will appear to be out of your price range. One doesn't have the time to wait for the market to drop, if ever. Rethink your plans. Matthew Greet Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
Post #284,372 by Another Scott 5/10/07 8:38:21 AM Reply	Lately, I mostly do auctions as a last resort. For some little collectibles that my wife likes I still go to eBay auctions occasionally, and for some obsolete items (e.g. old cell phone batteries), but mostly I try to avoid them (or use Buy It Now) for the reasons you cite. My Fujitsu laptop was a special case. The Wii I got recently was cheaper at a storefront at [link\|http://www.express.ebay.com/\|http://www.express.ebay.com/] than at concurrent auctions at eBay. It does appear to be too easy for auctions to be manipulated. Unfortunately, there appears to be little that can be done about it if people are determined... Cheers, Scott.
Post #284,394 by folkert 5/10/07 12:26:31 PM Reply	Determined people are what auctions are all about. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* `PGP key: 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05 Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0 2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74 E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0`
Post #284,427 by Ashton 5/10/07 8:52:34 PM Reply	Knowing your market helps heaps - F'rinstance.. (as reported by the Tek scopes guys, some of whom correlate dumping of particular classes of equipment - by govt., military, say.) Then cometh the sudden appearance of (too-many! of the same item): There's a trend that seems to hold over years (yess.. Somebody actually tabulates this stuff) - first 1 or 2 go for $lots, as there was a dearth. Some buyers of large lots next fail to dribble them in at intervals.. prices fall, maybe after the first week of pent-up demand: THEN you get yours. Lots of categories where this isn't applicable, of course - but several where you can see the cluelessness of now, lots of amateur bulk purchasers -- trying to make a killing / overdoing the dumping / killing goose instead. Capitalism, the zero-sum exploitation game, which rots the tykes' nascent little minds at the outset; they go for the MBA, not the thinking stuff - then ya gets a Nation of biz-droids who don't know shit about anything but deception. And are perpetually boring for liff, if golf or advanced-deception isn't the topic.

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