Post #281,184
4/9/07 10:50:16 PM
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Compared to?
And this has been distributed to most other scientists how?
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning, As hopeless as it seems in the middle, Or as finished as it seems in the end. |
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Post #281,186
4/9/07 11:00:14 PM
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Why research grants, of course.
Until recently, that is...once the [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Greenhouse_Gas_Emission_Trading_Scheme|financial traders] got involved.
7.2 billion euro traded in the first year.
Chump change.
And next year the airlines have to pay in...which means globo-corporate money starts to flow.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #281,207
4/10/07 6:58:23 AM
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I want to see proof. Show me the money.
That there is anywhere NEAR the money being used to 'buy science' by the petro-industry - even order of magnitude - being used to influence the bulk of all scientists to support global warming.
Show me the vast conspiracy amongst scientists to promote global warming theories. Show me.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning, As hopeless as it seems in the middle, Or as finished as it seems in the end. |
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Post #281,208
4/10/07 7:16:02 AM
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"promote global warming"?
I think you mean "promote anthropogenic climate change".
The world is warming, no doubt about that. Completely unrelated to the 1000-year high in sunspot activity, of course. It's clearly inconceivable that the source of all energy and life on our planet might have anything at all to do with the global average temperature. It must be the OOMAN BEANS growing all over it, that's it.
Greenland, AD 1000. They were dairy farming up there then - and it's a bit chillier nowadays. I'm damn sure I wasn't driving my car at the time.
I'll spell it out to you. "Environmental Taxes".
The additional tax take (Are you folks ready for petrol at $6.73 a gallon? Because that's what we pay.) on the back of the current round of research will make being fucked over for income tax seem like a frolic in the park.
Peter [link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator] [image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
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Post #281,212
4/10/07 8:01:34 AM
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Not nearly the point
And not up for the research project.
Denying that climate change is big business in itself is just as or more dangerous to the real cause.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #281,218
4/10/07 10:31:47 AM
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Something on the numbers
[link|http://www.aaas.org/spp/rd/05pch16.htm|http://www.aaas.org/spp/rd/05pch16.htm]
Whats competition for several billion in research grant money between friends.
Think you'd get any of it if your premise doesn't match the cause of the day?
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #281,221
4/10/07 10:52:42 AM
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dont forget the gummit scammers
[link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6524331.stm|http://news.bbc.co.u.../tech/6524331.stm] thanx, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #281,227
4/10/07 12:10:01 PM
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I don't really care
as long as they manage to kill the oil industry.
There are a lot of good reasons to bag oil - environmental, national security, non-renewability which implies that we are running the fuck out of the shit anyhow, and most importantly - I'm sick of letting a bunch of stone age rag heads build places like Dubai with money that should rightfully be ours.
If a bunch of tree huggers want to work on it, I support them.
I4 NOW!
Impeach, Indict, Incarcerate, Inject Bush, Cheney, Gonzalez, Rumsfeld, Rove, Rice
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Post #281,230
4/10/07 12:21:31 PM
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work on it sure, but taxing the crap out of western civ, no
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #281,269
4/10/07 3:38:29 PM
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Change requires motivation - pain works
I4 NOW!
Impeach, Indict, Incarcerate, Inject Bush, Cheney, Gonzalez, Rumsfeld, Rove, Rice
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Post #281,270
4/10/07 3:41:36 PM
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change requires innovation not pain
having the gummint tax grapes from chili at $8 per lb because they are flown in means I dont eat grapes in january and some poor chilean farmer will be homeless because he cant sell his crops. thanx, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #281,280
4/10/07 4:07:03 PM
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grapes of folly
quoth boxter: "having the gummint tax grapes from chili (sic) at $8 per lb because they are flown in means I dont eat grapes in january and some poor chilean farmer will be homeless because he cant sell his crops."
Now then, box, you shouldn't pull these notions out of your ass like that. Grapes do indeed have a calendar-specific rate (the first one of these I've seen, and I spent a decade in close company with the tariff back when I was assigned to the brain-dead employer's international division), being dutiable (not taxable, although I grant that to them as pays it this is a distinction largely without a difference) at $1.13 per cubic meter between February 15 and March 31, free of duty between April 1 and June 30, and at $1.80 per cubic meter during the rest of the year. You do the math: that ain't anything remotely like $8/lb (and I checked to see if there were any special Chile-specific punitive duties—there aren't). Actually, though, because Chile and the US have signed a free trade agreement, grapes from that long, skinny country can be imported duty free all year long provided only that they are accompanied by an official Chilean certificate of origin. If your local produce stand has been telling you different, he is cruelly taking advantage of your demonstrated credulity, and should be reproached for this.
cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #281,284
4/10/07 4:51:52 PM
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I was refering to the EU's and UK stance on SA flowers
flown in by jet as well as other produce. They want to put a carbon tax of about that much per pound. South Africa is aghast that a market may be closed to them and are clamoring against it. I then moved to make a simile to a similar tax in our continent as a reference point. thanx, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #281,235
4/10/07 12:56:33 PM
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There's a documentary that aired last month,
that may help. It was produced by Britain's Channel 4 and called [link|http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/G/great_global_warming_swindle/|The Great Global Warming Swindle]. [link|http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/G/great_global_warming_swindle/trailer.html|Link to trailer]. I saw the full show on YouTube a week or so ago, but it's apparently been pulled due to a copyright issue.
-- Steve [link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu]
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Post #281,271
4/10/07 3:41:49 PM
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"swindle" is right
At least one scientist interviewed for the program says that he's been edited in such a way as to leave an impression [link|http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/03/swindled-carl-wunsch-responds/|"diametrically opposite to the point I was making"] I believe that climate change is real, a major threat, and almost surely has a major human-induced component. But I have tried to stay out of the `climate wars' because all nuance tends to be lost, and the distinction between what we know firmly, as scientists, and what we suspect is happening, is so difficult to maintain in the presence of rhetorical excess. In the long run, our credibility as scientists rests on being very careful of, and protective of, our authority and expertise.
The science of climate change remains incomplete. Some elements are so firmly based on well-understood principles, or for which the observational record is so clear, that most scientists would agree that they are almost surely true (adding CO2 to the atmosphere is dangerous; sea level will continue to rise,...). Other elements remain more uncertain, but we as scientists in our roles as informed citizens believe society should be deeply concerned about their possibility...
I am on record in a number of places complaining about the over-dramatization and unwarranted extrapolation of scientific facts. Thus the notion that the Gulf Stream would or could "shut off" or that with global warming Britain would go into a "new ice age" are either scientifically impossible or so unlikely as to threaten our credibility as a scientific discipline if we proclaim their reality. They also are huge distractions from more immediate and realistic threats.
When approached by WAGTV, on behalf of Channel 4, known to me as one of the main UK independent broadcasters, I was led to believe that I would be given an opportunity to explain why I, like some others, find the statements at both extremes of the global change debate distasteful...I wanted to explain why observing the ocean was so difficult, and why it is so tricky to predict with any degree of confidence such important climate elements as its heat and carbon storage and transports in 10 or 100 years. I am distrustful of prediction scenarios for details of the ocean circulation that rely on extremely complicated coupled models that run out for decades to thousands of years.
In the part of the "Swindle" film where I am describing the fact that the ocean tends to expel carbon dioxide where it is warm, and to absorb it where it is cold, my intent was to explain that warming the ocean could be dangerous---because it is such a gigantic reservoir of carbon. By its placement in the film, it appears that I am saying that since carbon dioxide exists in the ocean in such large quantities, human influence must not be very important --- diametrically opposite to the point I was making --- which is that global warming is both real and threatening in many different ways, some unexpected.
...Channel 4 now says they were making a film in a series of "polemics". There is nothing in the communication we had (much of it on the telephone or with the film crew on the day they were in Boston) that suggested they were making a film that was one-sided, anti-educational, and misleading. I took them at face value---clearly a great error. I knew I had no control over the actual content, but it never occurred to me that I was dealing with people who already had a reputation for distortion and exaggeration. The aggrieved scientist, Carl Wunsch of—golly!—MIT, expressed himself a bit more forcefully when he wrote to the producer: What we now have is an out-and-out propaganda piece, in which there is not even a gesture toward balance or explanation of why many of the extended inferences drawn in the film are not widely accepted by the scientific community. There are so many examples, it's hard to know where to begin, so I will cite only one: a speaker asserts, as is true, that carbon dioxide is only a small fraction of the atmospheric mass. The viewer is left to infer that means it couldn't really matter. But even a beginning meteorology student could tell you that the relative masses of gases are irrelevant to their effects on radiative balance. A director not intending to produce pure propaganda would have tried to eliminate that piece of disinformation.
An example where my own discussion was grossly distorted by context: I am shown explaining that a warming ocean could expel more carbon dioxide than it absorbs -- thus exacerbating the greenhouse gas buildup in the atmosphere and hence worrisome. It was used in the film, through its context, to imply that CO2 is all natural, coming from the ocean, and that therefore the human element is irrelevant. This use of my remarks, which are literally what I said, comes close to fraud.
...At a minimum, I ask that the film should never be seen again publicly with my participation included [RC note: this might be the "copyright issue"]. Channel 4 surely owes an apology to its viewers, and perhaps WAGTV owes something to Channel 4. I will be taking advice as to whether I should proceed to make some more formal protest. Rather telling that the producers of the "documentary" felt the need to augment the roster of usual suspects by misrepresenting a reputable scientist's views, innit? cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #281,272
4/10/07 3:45:13 PM
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same as gore's movie
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #281,278
4/10/07 4:00:12 PM
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a link
[link|http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/environment/gore.html|http://www.johnstons...ronment/gore.html]
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #281,281
4/10/07 4:10:32 PM
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Which scientist complains of Gore's twisting his views?
----------------------------------------- You can fire an at will employee for good cause or no cause, but not bad cause.
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Post #283,083
4/25/07 6:26:09 PM
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Well, my Google-fu is merely average
but I couldn't find other than general invective-loaded science-illiterate Thinking-light, unattached to any notable academic credential - all munged together in general emotive rant-form.
Besides - as I read the mission behind Gore's long-term activities - his aim is to keep the topic alive, amidst Nations of the uninformable and ADD-afflicted; certainly Not to pretend that he possesses all necessary (let alone sufficient) Knowledge to create some The Agenda, next. Of Course! he's a target for every marlowesque dance.
I remain unconvinced that, overall - the species possesses the gumption, tenacity, even once-natural Curiosity - to do much beyond pander to last century's raison d'etre; the signal/noise level continues its descent, as Distraction is not merely big Bizness - it's the Major big Bizness.
>There must be more-More-MORE and, we must make a Profit on each new offering.< Or: it's a commyunist god-hating conspiracy to take away our Comfortable illusions. Oh well.. Brahma opens eyes: a Universe appears. Closes eyes and
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Post #283,086
4/25/07 7:36:45 PM
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You notice I only asked for one.
----------------------------------------- You can fire an at will employee for good cause or no cause, but not bad cause.
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Post #283,089
4/25/07 8:01:15 PM
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Gore did apparently get some things wrong.
And he's admitted as much. E.g. [link|http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/13/science/13gore.html?ei=5070&en=62c0fdec39ca9cd1&ex=1177646400&pagewanted=print|this] NY Times story from March: Some backers concede minor inaccuracies but see them as reasonable for a politician. James E. Hansen, an environmental scientist, director of NASA\ufffds Goddard Institute for Space Studies and a top adviser to Mr. Gore, said, \ufffdAl does an exceptionally good job of seeing the forest for the trees,\ufffd adding that Mr. Gore often did so \ufffdbetter than scientists.\ufffd
Still, Dr. Hansen said, the former vice president\ufffds work may hold \ufffdimperfections\ufffd and \ufffdtechnical flaws.\ufffd He pointed to hurricanes, an icon for Mr. Gore, who highlights the devastation of Hurricane Katrina and cites research suggesting that global warming will cause both storm frequency and deadliness to rise. Yet this past Atlantic season produced fewer hurricanes than forecasters predicted (five versus nine), and none that hit the United States.
\ufffdWe need to be more careful in describing the hurricane story than he is,\ufffd Dr. Hansen said of Mr. Gore. \ufffdOn the other hand,\ufffd Dr. Hansen said, \ufffdhe has the bottom line right: most storms, at least those driven by the latent heat of vaporization, will tend to be stronger, or have the potential to be stronger, in a warmer climate.\ufffd
In his e-mail message, Mr. Gore defended his work as fundamentally accurate. \ufffdOf course,\ufffd he said, \ufffdthere will always be questions around the edges of the science, and we have to rely upon the scientific community to continue to ask and to challenge and to answer those questions.\ufffd
He said \ufffdnot every single adviser\ufffd agreed with him on every point, \ufffdbut we do agree on the fundamentals\ufffd \ufffd that warming is real and caused by humans.
Mr. Gore added that he perceived no general backlash among scientists against his work. \ufffdI have received a great deal of positive feedback,\ufffd he said. \ufffdI have also received comments about items that should be changed, and I have updated the book and slideshow to reflect these comments.\ufffd He gave no specifics on which points he had revised. But, to answer Silverlock's query, I haven't seen anyone publicly complaining that Gore distorted their views. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #283,088
4/25/07 7:57:16 PM
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two lazy to look, now explain different sized co2 molecules
man made and natural. thanx, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #283,095
4/25/07 8:31:28 PM
5/7/07 8:21:36 PM
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Carbon has several isotopes.
[link|http://www2.glos.ac.uk/gdn/origins/life/carbon.htm|Carbon] has 3 common isotopes that differ in the number of neutrons in the nucleus of the atom. Carbon 14 is radioactive - it decays into lighter elements over time, with an accurately known rate. By comparing the ratio of isotopes of carbon in a formerly living material, you can get information about how long ago it died - that's the basis of "carbon dating".
Carbon 12 and Carbon 13 are both stable isotopes of carbon. Since Carbon 13 is heavier than Carbon 12, it behaves slightly differently in plants. And one can get information about the [link|http://www.jhu.edu/news_info/news/home00/feb00/fossil.html|CO2 in the atmosphere] during the time the plants were alive.
CO2 from burning ancient coal or oil is going to have carbon isotope ratios different from CO2 from forest fires or from other natural sources.
That's my understanding of the issue. Corrections welcome.
HTH a bit.
[edit:] RealClimate has an article that addresses [link|http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=87|how we know that the rise in CO2 in the atmosphere is due to man].
Cheers, Scott.
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Post #283,110
4/25/07 9:59:19 PM
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so co2 from cars is much more dangerous than bbqing?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #283,125
4/25/07 11:09:54 PM
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No.
(I haven't seen the Gore comment you're referring to, so I'm just trying to address what I think you're writing about.)
If you think of the Earth as a sealed terrarium, then there's some equilibrium concentration of water vapor, oxygen, CO2, etc., in the air and in the soil that will depend on (among other things) how much plant and animal life is there. If you dig up some deep coal and burn it, you're going to quickly change the amount of CO2 in the air and it can't easily be absorbed by the water or the plants (because the system has developed under a lower concentration).
Burning wood isn't as bad as burning coal, because the CO2 in trees is part of the carbon that rapidly gets recycled between the air, water, and plant life. And that's why just planting billions of trees isn't going to quickly solve the CO2 problem introduced by our burning of ancient coal and oil. When most trees die, their carbon will just get released back into the carbon cycle in a relatively short period of time (say a few hundred years). It takes a very long time for plant life to significantly change the CO2 concentration. Carbon in deep coal and oil is locked up and is no longer part of the natural cycle - until we dig it up and burn it.
That's what's bad about adding vast amounts of ancient carbon to the air - it's not that it's "more dangerous" than burning wood, it's that it is driving the atmosphere and the carbon cycle out of equilibrium on a very short time scale (compared to the millions of years that it took to lock the carbon up in the Earth).
HTH.
Cheers, Scott.
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Post #283,146
4/26/07 7:35:10 AM
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"Burning wood isn't as bad as burning coal"
did you think before you posted? thanx, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #283,147
4/26/07 7:36:34 AM
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Yes. Did I say something you disagree with?
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