How did the framers define Militia?

Post #281,077 by Seamus 4/9/07 4:21:05 PM Reply	How did the framers define Militia? I don't know, but the militias then required people to bring their own weapons. Did they recognize only one militia per state? Does it matter? I still don't know where I come down on this, but the way things are going lately, I am starting to agree with the NRA and their stated belief that we citizens need a way to protect ourselves from our government. Of course, I could be miss-interpreting what the NRA's stance is. Seamus
Post #281,273 by mmoffitt 4/10/07 3:46:43 PM Reply	Bingo. I am starting to agree with the NRA and their stated belief that we citizens need a way to protect ourselves from our government. Tomorrow morning I'm going to get a permit. A couple pilot buddies are going to take me to a gun show in Indianapolis and help me pick out a couple of firearms (a shotgun and a handgun). I've never said that citizens of the US of A don't have a right to private ownership of firearms, we just don't have a Constitutional Right to private ownership. Every single USSC case involving private ownership has said that the Congress can regulate private ownership without violating Amendment 2. From Miller to the "convicted felons can't own them" to the Assault Rifle ban. The NRA, of course, knows this (that Amendment 2 doesn't apply to private ownership) but wisely has chosen not to forge any fight all the way through the courts for fear that a ruling over Amendment 2's scope would embolden the Congress to further ban firearm ownership (that damned stare decicis is such a PITA, n'est pas?). Maybe this insight will help. I think its not controversial to say that the framers were afraid of a too powerful centralized federal government. How best to provide a check on the fed's power? One way, as outlined in Amendment 2 - and if you read it in context you get this - is to insure that the States maintain the right to build their own militias. That's why it says what it says - the States have the right to arm their own militias. You can look this up in your own state, but the definition of a State's militia is usually found in the State Constitution. In Indiana, that'd be here [link\|http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/inconst/art-12.html\|Who is the militia?] So, Amendment 2 merely means that [link\|http://www.mdisdf.org/\|these guys] can arm themselves. Got it? bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #281,274 by boxley 4/10/07 3:48:38 PM Reply	buy on from a private sale as well when they come for the ones in the database you still have a weapon thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #281,275 by mmoffitt 4/10/07 3:51:48 PM Reply	Thanks. My Grandpa. 'Nuff said. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #281,277 by bepatient 4/10/07 3:57:46 PM Reply	The rulings have been consistent in that they say you are certainly guaranteed the ownership right...but fed, state and local governments can impose certain registration requirements and restrictions (like carry permits). Your interpretations of the case law aside. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #281,345 by mmoffitt 4/11/07 9:01:33 AM Reply	Show me the case where they said private ownership was guaranteed under Amendment 2. I'll be back in a decade. By then, hopefully, you'll have given up looking as there isn't any such case. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #281,356 by Seamus 4/11/07 10:20:07 AM Reply	I assume you are refering the 2nd being a states right [Footnote 7] ... See also Hickman v. Block, 81 F.3d 98 (9th Cir.) (plaintiff lacked standing to challenge denial of permit to carry concealed weapon, because Second Amendment is a right held by states, not by private citizens), cert. denied 117 S. Ct. 276 (1996); ... [link\|http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment02/\|http://caselaw.lp.fi...tion/amendment02/] Not that I think it is going to stay that way. Seamus
Post #281,362 by Seamus 4/11/07 10:38:38 AM Reply	I like this reference better It seems to do a better job capturing the discrepancies: Like the scholars, the lower federal courts are split on the issue, although their split is the opposite of the scholarly one: most federal courts which have stated a firm position have said that the Second Amendment is not an individual right. [FN13] The federal courts which follow the academic Standard Model *105 are in the minority, although the ranks of the minority have grown in recent years. [FN14] The courts on both sides, like the scholars, insist that they are following the Supreme Court. [link\|http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/35finalpartone.htm\|http://www.davekopel...5finalpartone.htm] Seamus
Post #281,724 by mmoffitt 4/13/07 1:57:37 PM Reply	Correct. Each state has the right to arm its own militia. Used to be a State's militiamen had to bring their own firearms. Not true today (or for a very long time). Ultimately, we have only those rights we are prepared to defend. Constitutional or otherwise. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #281,357 by bepatient 4/11/07 10:29:22 AM Reply	The amendment itself. Case law refines interpretation. As such, if no case has stated that ownership is forbidden, then there need be no clarification in case law. Thats what precedent is. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #281,363 by bepatient 4/11/07 10:50:00 AM Reply	Re: The amendment itself. [link\|http://www.law.ucla.edu/volokh/beararms/testimon.htm\|http://www.law.ucla....arms/testimon.htm] Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #281,723 by mmoffitt 4/13/07 1:55:24 PM 4/13/07 2:03:26 PM Reply	Heh. From your reference: Despite all the above evidence, the federal courts of appeal have unanimously subscribed to the states' right approach, though there are a few recent hints to the contrary in some opinions. And those decisions have been reversed how many times? Thanks. "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State..." It really doesn't seem ambiguous to me. The militia gets to be armed. When it was written, the people arming the militia were the militiamen themselves. Now, such is not the case, but the Constitution guarantee of an armed militia for each State remains. I seriously do not see what the controversy is. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell Edited by mmoffitt April 13, 2007, 02:03:26 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #281,730 by bepatient 4/13/07 2:34:25 PM Reply	Only one part of the courts don't cry victory from that. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

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