Post #280,680
4/4/07 9:50:45 PM
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Your bias is showing
Firearms are used to commit injurous force and to create or maintain a power differential Or to eliminate a power differential. That's, like the reason for the 2nd Ammendment over here. ===
Kip Hawley is still an idiot.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #280,691
4/4/07 10:38:16 PM
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Indeed! And here's one called...
the [link|http://www.circlekb.com/page/CKCG/PROD/RepGunA/CA22-1186N|Peacemaker]. :)
Alex
When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. -- Sinclair Lewis
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Post #280,765
4/5/07 2:45:43 PM
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"God created man. Colonel Colt made them equal"
lincoln
"Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow
Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the United States.
[link|mailto:golf_lover44@yahoo.com|contact me]
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Post #280,705
4/5/07 1:09:05 AM
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Maybe I should have said 'change a power differential.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
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Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
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-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. | · my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] · |
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Post #281,049
4/9/07 11:43:58 AM
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Re: the reason for the 2nd Ammendment over here.
Nope. USSC, Miller, 1938. Look it up. Unless a firearm "has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument."
So, if you are enlisted in your state's guard and you take that weapon with you to use as you serve, then your weapon is protected under amendment 2. Otherwise, amendment 2 does not apply to your firearm. HTH.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #281,057
4/9/07 2:03:13 PM
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Militia...
You keep using that word. I do not think you know what it means. American Heritage Dictionary mi\ufffdli\ufffdtia (mə-lĭsh'ə) Pronunciation Key n. - An army composed of ordinary citizens rather than professional soldiers.
- A military force that is not part of a regular army and is subject to call for service in an emergency.
- The whole body of physically fit civilians eligible by law for military service.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #281,060
4/9/07 2:12:47 PM
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Plus he selectively quotes the decision
leaving out where it specified weapons that were not generally considered military (sawed off shotguns were the subject of the ruling). And the case was sent down for further deliberation which never occured.
And since then, there are units that do indeed use shotguns with barrels of less than 18" in length...so the entire decision has been called into debate as to its applicability wrt the 2nd amendment.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #281,077
4/9/07 4:21:05 PM
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How did the framers define Militia?
I don't know, but the militias then required people to bring their own weapons.
Did they recognize only one militia per state?
Does it matter?
I still don't know where I come down on this, but the way things are going lately, I am starting to agree with the NRA and their stated belief that we citizens need a way to protect ourselves from our government. Of course, I could be miss-interpreting what the NRA's stance is.
Seamus
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Post #281,273
4/10/07 3:46:43 PM
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Bingo.
I am starting to agree with the NRA and their stated belief that we citizens need a way to protect ourselves from our government.
Tomorrow morning I'm going to get a permit. A couple pilot buddies are going to take me to a gun show in Indianapolis and help me pick out a couple of firearms (a shotgun and a handgun).
I've never said that citizens of the US of A don't have a right to private ownership of firearms, we just don't have a Constitutional Right to private ownership. Every single USSC case involving private ownership has said that the Congress can regulate private ownership without violating Amendment 2. From Miller to the "convicted felons can't own them" to the Assault Rifle ban. The NRA, of course, knows this (that Amendment 2 doesn't apply to private ownership) but wisely has chosen not to forge any fight all the way through the courts for fear that a ruling over Amendment 2's scope would embolden the Congress to further ban firearm ownership (that damned stare decicis is such a PITA, n'est pas?).
Maybe this insight will help. I think its not controversial to say that the framers were afraid of a too powerful centralized federal government. How best to provide a check on the fed's power? One way, as outlined in Amendment 2 - and if you read it in context you get this - is to insure that the States maintain the right to build their own militias. That's why it says what it says - the States have the right to arm their own militias. You can look this up in your own state, but the definition of a State's militia is usually found in the State Constitution. In Indiana, that'd be here [link|http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/inconst/art-12.html|Who is the militia?] So, Amendment 2 merely means that [link|http://www.mdisdf.org/|these guys] can arm themselves. Got it?
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #281,274
4/10/07 3:48:38 PM
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buy on from a private sale as well
when they come for the ones in the database you still have a weapon
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #281,275
4/10/07 3:51:48 PM
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Thanks. My Grandpa. 'Nuff said.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #281,277
4/10/07 3:57:46 PM
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The rulings have been consistent
in that they say you are certainly guaranteed the ownership right...but fed, state and local governments can impose certain registration requirements and restrictions (like carry permits).
Your interpretations of the case law aside.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #281,345
4/11/07 9:01:33 AM
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Show me the case where they said private ownership
was guaranteed under Amendment 2. I'll be back in a decade. By then, hopefully, you'll have given up looking as there isn't any such case.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #281,356
4/11/07 10:20:07 AM
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I assume you are refering the 2nd being a states right
[Footnote 7] ... See also Hickman v. Block, 81 F.3d 98 (9th Cir.) (plaintiff lacked standing to challenge denial of permit to carry concealed weapon, because Second Amendment is a right held by states, not by private citizens), cert. denied 117 S. Ct. 276 (1996); ... [link|http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment02/|http://caselaw.lp.fi...tion/amendment02/] Not that I think it is going to stay that way. Seamus
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Post #281,362
4/11/07 10:38:38 AM
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I like this reference better
It seems to do a better job capturing the discrepancies: Like the scholars, the lower federal courts are split on the issue, although their split is the opposite of the scholarly one: most federal courts which have stated a firm position have said that the Second Amendment is not an individual right. [FN13] The federal courts which follow the academic Standard Model *105 are in the minority, although the ranks of the minority have grown in recent years. [FN14] The courts on both sides, like the scholars, insist that they are following the Supreme Court. [link|http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/35finalpartone.htm|http://www.davekopel...5finalpartone.htm] Seamus
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Post #281,724
4/13/07 1:57:37 PM
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Correct.
Each state has the right to arm its own militia. Used to be a State's militiamen had to bring their own firearms. Not true today (or for a very long time).
Ultimately, we have only those rights we are prepared to defend. Constitutional or otherwise.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #281,357
4/11/07 10:29:22 AM
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The amendment itself.
Case law refines interpretation. As such, if no case has stated that ownership is forbidden, then there need be no clarification in case law. Thats what precedent is.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #281,363
4/11/07 10:50:00 AM
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Re: The amendment itself.
[link|http://www.law.ucla.edu/volokh/beararms/testimon.htm|http://www.law.ucla....arms/testimon.htm]
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #281,723
4/13/07 1:55:24 PM
4/13/07 2:03:26 PM
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Heh.
From your reference:
Despite all the above evidence, the federal courts of appeal have unanimously subscribed to the states' right approach, though there are a few recent hints to the contrary in some opinions.
And those decisions have been reversed how many times? Thanks.
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State..."
It really doesn't seem ambiguous to me. The militia gets to be armed. When it was written, the people arming the militia were the militiamen themselves. Now, such is not the case, but the Constitution guarantee of an armed militia for each State remains. I seriously do not see what the controversy is.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Edited by mmoffitt
April 13, 2007, 02:03:26 PM EDT
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Post #281,730
4/13/07 2:34:25 PM
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Only one part of the courts
don't cry victory from that.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #281,101
4/9/07 6:10:39 PM
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He has two out of three definitions on his side.
The one you seem to be relying on is the last one, which usually in dictionaries means the weakest one.
Personally, I don't think that's a valid definition of the concept at all; I've NEVER seen or heard it used that way -- EXCEPT by gun nuts trying to pull what you're trying to pull. BS like that sometimes, alas, finds its way into dictionaries... Fortunately, though, at least it usually ends up among the last of the definitions, just like here.
I don't think the word "militia" means what you WANT it to mean.
("American Heritage", BTW, doesn't that sound kind of rah-rah-right-wing?)
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
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Post #281,110
4/9/07 6:45:16 PM
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Evolution of language
This is one case where the originalists like Scalia have a very good point. When we consider what that clause means we need to consider what those words meant and used when the constitution was written.
At the time the third meaning was the common usage. And this was how the framers envisioned the military working. Rather then keeping a large standing force, there would be organized groups of armed civilians that could be called up when needed.*
Unlike Scalia I don't believe those things are written in stone however. Things do change, and the key one where was cartridge cases for ammunition. This made pistols much more practical. It made it possible to load a weapon and leave it sitting around and expect it to work. This greatly changes the balance of the risk/reward equation for weapons. And does so in a way that requires more regulation then the founders probably had in mind.
One of the reasons they wrote the constitution in general broad strokes is because they wanted a document that could flex with the situation without requiring alteration for every little change.
Jay
*And part of the reason they wanted to do that was to avoid stationing a large army outside the US. They knew that if the only force available was call-up guard, it would be impossible for the US to built an empire the way the UK and France had done. In that regards history has proven them correct. It wasn't until we abandoned the idea of using the guard as our primary force that a large military build up outside the US became possible. Of course it can also be argued that the second world war made it necessary, but that is another argument.
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Post #281,182
4/9/07 10:43:55 PM
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Exsqueeze me?
1. Ordinary citizens. NOT professionals. NOT people trained, paid, and employed by the government.
2. The people that can be called up in an emergency. You know. Like most of us here in the US. It's an option that Shrub hasn't used because of it's unpopularity, but it's an option. It's been used before.
This is NOT the only right in the Bill of Rights that doesn't apply to an individual. It is NOT a right to serve the state, no matter how the anti-gun nuts want to spin it. It explicitly refers to the citizenry. The Bill was NEVER intended to reserve rights exclusively to the government; it was DESIGNED so that the government can't pull the crap that the anti-gun nuts want to pull.
Now - to throw the ones that want ONLY government employees to be armed a bone, it does say "well-regulated". We can keep 'em, we can bear 'em - but using them inappropriately should be HARSHLY punished, IMO. Nowhere are we granted the right to shoot people.
Ceding individual rights to the collective is not the way to go.
And BTW the American Heritage Dictionary is not a right wing dictionary.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
| |
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #281,183
4/9/07 10:49:46 PM
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Re: Exsqueeze me?
"And BTW the American Heritage Dictionary is not a right wing dictionary."
It is if it doesn't give the "correct" definitions ;-)
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #281,076
4/9/07 4:17:29 PM
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miller is goin down, already in the works
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #281,185
4/9/07 10:57:35 PM
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Show me where it says the militia is an arm of the state?
===
Kip Hawley is still an idiot.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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