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New I think the problem is much more complex than that.
The stated problem is more single mothers (obviously affecting welfare) so they ask 'why?' and get the answer 'people are copulating outside of marriage'. So instead of asking the next 'why?' they say 'well, let's stop people doing that then!'

Idjits.

Young adults are having sex outside marriage (and the committment that usually goes along with that) because society is making it hard for adults to become adults. Many adults see sex as just another toy that they play with to have fun. And a very fun toy it is, too, as I imagine all those reading would agree with. However, what's the purpose of playing with this toy? Most children play with toys for a grander purpose: many of them teach things like dexterity, eye-hand co-ordination, logic or problem-solving. Children's play also extends to exercising building social skills as well, such as team sports. It also nurtures skills that can be later used to produce income and hopefully raise their own children.

And there is the conflict. I'm sure we've all heard the popular stories about men afraid of 'commitment'. The average age of marriage in western culture is slowly rising. Men and women want to stay teenagers longer, and that means ducking responsibilities for as long as possible. Popular culture encourages this. "If it feels good, do it". "Sex sells." And so on and so on.

But we have a society that is fracturing. More and more children don't have effective parents, more and more teenagers are turning into adults outside but are still children inside. They don't have the skills to control themselves in a lot of ways, giving rise to more and more violent crime, more and more divorces and broken familes and more and more demand for psychological and counselling services for all these children in adult bodies.

I'm drawing a pretty broad brush, true. I'm a victim of this, too, more than I am usually willing to admit. As a limited example, in my small workspace, I'm physically the oldest in my group of 6, yet from time-to-time I feel like I'm behaving younger than my youngest colleague.

Teaching abstinence is one part of the equation. But it doesn't work alone. It can't work along. What works about abstinence needs a society that doesn't hold sex up as a god to be worshipped. Because that is what today's western society does. It teaches young men and women to worship at the alter of sexual gratification, and then discovers to it's horror that that's all they want. Governments then bemoan so much single parenting and sexual disease, but they're in the wrong position to do much about it. This is a problem with the social fabric. Fixing it isn't something a govenment can easily or simply do and governments have trouble doing things that are not easy. The solution needs to be down at the social level. But I don't know how to work that.

Wade, 2¢ deposited.
"Don't give up!"
New Yes it is
But you can't change the culture around you unless you want to be a hermit. Its a fact. So you have to deal.

I live on an island. The waters around the island are dangerously cold with swift tidal currents that switch direction twice a day. The safest thing is to stay out of the water. That's what I tell my daughter. Stay out of the water.

But we had a few hot days last summer where a dip in that water looked pretty darn attractive. And of course, she likes to go to the beach, wade out a ways and look for seaweed and shells - not really in deep, but still, she is experimenting on the edge.

So I'm teaching her to swim. For the day when she ends up in the water. At least she'll have the tools to stay safe.

The problem with the wingnuts is they don't want anyone to learn to swim - whether they plan on going in or not.



[link|http://www.blackbagops.net|Black Bag Operations Log]

[link|http://www.objectiveclips.com|Artificial Intelligence]

[link|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html|Scrutinizer]
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:17:32 AM EDT
New That's not a bad analogy.
"Don't give up!"
New wrong, the possibility of having sex is the only reason
for me not to kill all of the people that piss me off.
its a gift to enjoy, not a toy. Sex has nothing to do with marriage or family. If you tie those together you have people getting married for the wrong reasons, amd the marriages fail.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Sex has nothing to do with marriage or family?
Tell that to all the Catholics out there, who are taught the only reason to have sex is to go forth and multiply and create more little Catholics! If you're Catholic, sex is all about marriage and family. So ya get married to have sex, then the marriage fails and you're stuck because Catholics frown on divorce, too. Man. They got it all figured out.

Did anyone think that more single women are *choosing* to have babies? Ages 19-29. Prime reproductive years. The clock is ticking. Tick tick tick. Where is Mr. Right? I cant find him!! Tick tick tick. Wait!! I dont need Mr. Right! I only need the sperm of a righteous man!

More and more women are deciding to have babies on their own, contributing to the "scourge of single women having babies". Biology and the maternal drive trump our perpetual emotional adolescence.

Advocating adult abstinence. That's just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The feds prefer being fucked up to fucking. WTF are they thinking?
New Of all folks, though you might bring some base drivers
Sex is first and foremost the biological act of making babies.

Damn right its fun and feels good...nature wired it that way to make sure we did it to give the species the best chance at survival.

Of course, this opens up the "can of worms" that this is somehow a "religious right" view..regardless of the simple truth that this is the purpose of the act. (period).

What we now see is a push to "it feels good so do it" and we've spent alot of our higher brain function on that aspect. How do I keep doing it WITHOUT the biological outcome. Hey, no problem.

BUT, this attitude has created some fundamental issues in society between "factions".

Whatever your faction is, denying that makin whoopie has the side effect of makin babies is denying nature. There's also the fact that it also has the side effect of sharing some fairly bad bugs. Reminding folks of these things shouldn't be an issue.

And there is, regardless of your religious persuasion, only one way to guarantee none of the bad comes to pass. Thats not to do it at all. The real issue is why we need the government to tell us this. And the sad truth is because we don't have a solid enough family foundation left for most.

I agree with you in that there are many woman making the choice to have babies without being married. Sadly, though, they are likely the vast minority...and what we are doing is guaranteeing a continuous source of an underclass by not attacking the problem in some fashion.

Current governments way isn't necessarily the best way...but giving everybody a good dose of hormones and saying "have at you" isn't necessarily the best way either.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New I dont know what base drivers means :-(
New Biology
the animal purpose.

Base drivers.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Ahhh.
I thought you were using fancy computer lingo to trip me up. I never know with you guys. ;-)
New 12" to 15" speakers by Celestron.
Put in a folded horn enclosure. Best damn drivers I've evah heard!
jb4
"When the final history is written in Iraq, [link|http://images.ucomics.com/comics/tmate/2006/tmate060926.gif|it'll look just like a comma.]"
George W. Bush, 24 Sep 06
New You mean Celestion? Celestron make telescopes.
--
Steve
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu]
New Um, see "bonobo" at Wikipedia...
Sex has been about much more than reproduction in human society for a very long time. And it's about more than reproduction in other species as well. [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo|Bonobos].

And the way things are going, [link|http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/mg19225741.200-reproduction-revolution-the-conceivable-future.html|sex will not be about reproduction] (at least in Western societies) too much longer.

The simple truth, is nobody will remember us in 100 years. That's true, but it's not the whole story. ;-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New That's inconceivable! :)
Alex

When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. -- Sinclair Lewis
New I used to be Catholic, but then I grew up.
New Me too.
New Oxymoron alert: "Feds thinking"
C'mon Bio...you know better than that!
jb4
"When the final history is written in Iraq, [link|http://images.ucomics.com/comics/tmate/2006/tmate060926.gif|it'll look just like a comma.]"
George W. Bush, 24 Sep 06
New You know what tells me?
That tells me that your coping mechanism for life's daily shit is sex. I don't think that's a good thing, Bill. I know it's not your only coping mechanism, as I recall a recent post about things such as your favourite chair. But if your life is setup so that sex is the goal, then you're worshipping it.

I agree that sex is a gift that should be treasured. But we're encouraged to treat it like a toy. And that cheapens it and eventually breaks it and we don't usually treasure cheap things. Nor broken things.

I also don't think marriage should be the goal of sex, but inept social commentators have been making that mistake for many centuries. Sex is a damn nice reward for an intimate relationship, but not the goal.

Wade.
"Don't give up!"
New worship? Who me? hehehehe
Point being is that getting sex should not be a motive for marriage but a nice side effect of a relationship.

Yes, if there was not sex I would be in a murderous rage most of the time.
Is it a coping thing? Nope otherwise I wouldnt be married I would be catting around.

Would you rather
watch a ball game
drink alchohol with friends
watch a movie
play music
do drugs
listen to music
go jogging
have sex with someone else

if you would rather do anything but fuck there is something wrong with you unless you just finished up a good one
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Age of Adulthood is going up
A part of this problem is that what we call adulthood is going up. When I was a teenager 18 to 25 was considered young adult. And that was a slow increase from 16 to 21 where it had been for much of the industrial age. If you go back a few centuries it was 13 to 18.

Despite this cultural change, hormones still kick in during the teen years. Once kids hit that age most of them will have sex. You can either give them some sex education or can push ignorance and increase the population.

Jay
New This is exactly what I said.
'Adults' want to stay younger longer and one way to do that is redfine 'young'. But biology isn't playing along. So unfortunately, the only way to get them back in step is for culture and society to work on lowering age of adulthood. That's one of the things I was arguing for.

Wade.
"Don't give up!"
New Being able to reproduce doesn't make on an adult.
As we know.

I think we've all heard stories of girls under 10 getting pregnant. I believe some have argued that as our diets have gotten richer over the years, and as kids get heavier, they enter puberty earlier.

But puberty has little to do with adulthood - at least not if one defines adulthood as being fully developed, capable of living on one's own, and being able to support oneself.

I think a very good argument against not even considering lowering the age of majority from 18 is that human brains are still [link|http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20040508/bob9.asp|changing quite significantly until the early to mid '20s]:

Using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scanners to probe the brains of healthy teenagers and young adults, Elizabeth R. Sowell of the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) and her colleagues reported in 1999 that myelin, the fatty tissue around nerve fibers that fosters transmission of electrical signals, accumulates especially slowly in the frontal lobe.

The late phase of myelin formation, occurring in teenagers, provides a neural basis for assuming that teens are less blameworthy for criminal acts that adults are, Gur says. There's no way to say whether, for example, an individual 17-year-old possesses a fully mature brain. But the biological age of maturity generally falls around age 21 or 22, in Gur's view.

Although 18 years old represents an arbitrary cutoff age for receiving a capital sentence, it's preferable to 17, according to Gur.

"These brain data create reasonable doubt that a teenager can be held culpable for a crime to the same extent that an adult is," agrees neuroscientist J. Anthony Movshon of New York University.

Fear factor

Abigail A. Baird of Dartmouth College in Hanover, N.H., also suspects that delayed neural development undermines teens' judgment in ways that affect their legal standing. "There's no reason to say adulthood happens at age 18," Baird says. Unlike Gur, however, she estimates that the brain achieves maturity at age 25 or 26.

A 1999 investigation led by Baird and Deborah Yurgelun-Todd of Harvard Medical School in Boston raised the possibility that certain characteristics of teens' brains make it difficult for them to recognize when other people are scared. They tested 12 teenagers, ages 12 to 17. A functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) scanner measured changes throughout participants' brains in blood flow, which studies have indicated reflect dips and rises in neural activity. As the teens briefly viewed and identified fear in pictures of people who had intentionally tried to look scared, the researchers observed marked increases in activity of an almond-shaped inner-brain structure called the amygdala.

Neuroscientists suspect that the amygdala is important for learning to attach emotional significance to facial expressions and other stimuli. However, the results of Baird and Yurgelun-Todd indicated that there may not be a simple relationship between amygdala activity and accurate face reading.

The teen volunteers\ufffdall with active amygdalas\ufffdincorrectly identified one in four fear expressions, usually labeling them as angry, sad, or confused.

[...]


Having a child isn't quite like capital punishment, but I think the point stands. Children have no business having children. Since the urges are going to be there, and likely be there at an earlier age over time, it's important for children to understand what's happening to them, why it's happening to them, and be told the consequences. Sexual education and contraceptives should be easily available without any stigma, IMO.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New call crapaud
A 1999 investigation led by Baird and Deborah Yurgelun-Todd of Harvard Medical School in Boston raised the possibility that certain characteristics of teens' brains make it difficult for them to recognize when other people are scared. They tested 12 teenagers, ages 12 to 17. A functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) scanner measured changes throughout participants' brains in blood flow, which studies have indicated reflect dips and rises in neural activity. As the teens briefly viewed and identified fear in pictures of people who had intentionally tried to look scared, the researchers observed marked increases in activity of an almond-shaped inner-brain structure called the amygdala.

Neuroscientists suspect that the amygdala is important for learning to attach emotional significance to facial expressions and other stimuli. However, the results of Baird and Yurgelun-Todd indicated that there may not be a simple relationship between amygdala activity and accurate face reading.
any 8-12yo kid on the playground is intimately tuned in to fearm they turn on the whiff of it and bore in pack like. Fear has little to do with facial expression than pherenomes, body posture and practice.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New You're assuming a 'fully developed brain' is required.
I think that assumption is faulty.

What's to say that the act of bearing children doesn't help finish the development of the brain? Or, closer to my original argument, raising children?

It is western industrialized society that has largely created the nuclear family of mum, dad and kids, IMO. Grandparents live their own lives and so do aunts and uncles. I'm generalizing, but in my limited research, non-industrialized societies aren't like that. Children are raised by more people than just their parents. And in a way, the parents are still undergoing education from their peers and elders and having their own children is likely to be a vital part of that.

In addition, many such societies have a type of initiation process to turn children into adults. It differs between boys and girls, of course, because they have different things to learn. And it is not always the tribal trial anthropologists write about and what you would normally associate with 'initiation': farming communities in Sussex in the 1500's would have had a recognisable process for boys to become men (and girls to become women). And the Jewish Bar Mitzvah is part of the same ancient process for Jewish societies. Many of them happen in the period of 12-15 years old, after which these newly minted adults are usually considered candidates for having their own children. Not fully mature yet? :-) These social groups have been around for many centuries. And a lot of the problems with where 'adulthood' starts is a relatively recent phenomenon.

I agree that education is important, but it is too limited and too short-sighted. It needs to include parental education about how to handle the transition their child is making, and oft-times how the parents themselves can finish their own transition. This is hard.

Wade.
"Don't give up!"
New But the word itself is 'graded on a curve'
Some.. portray 'our' society as juvenile at-all-ages; unarguably (whatever side of that proposition one comes down on) - many other cultures' main contact with'US' is via their rollicking {when not downright fearful} guffaws at reading about our antics. (Lately, of course, well.. all know the impression which any Shrub, Cheney Teleprompter reading gives: that's Universal.)


Quo vadis then, any useful definition of adult? in these parts.

     19-29? No Sex for You - (Ashton) - (25)
         The first order of business for any repressive . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
         I think the problem is much more complex than that. - (static) - (23)
             Yes it is - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                 That's not a bad analogy. -NT - (static)
             wrong, the possibility of having sex is the only reason - (boxley) - (14)
                 Sex has nothing to do with marriage or family? - (bionerd) - (11)
                     Of all folks, though you might bring some base drivers - (bepatient) - (7)
                         I dont know what base drivers means :-( -NT - (bionerd) - (4)
                             Biology - (bepatient) - (1)
                                 Ahhh. - (bionerd)
                             12" to 15" speakers by Celestron. - (jb4) - (1)
                                 You mean Celestion? Celestron make telescopes. -NT - (Steve Lowe)
                         Um, see "bonobo" at Wikipedia... - (Another Scott) - (1)
                             That's inconceivable! :) -NT - (a6l6e6x)
                     I used to be Catholic, but then I grew up. -NT - (n3jja) - (1)
                         Me too. -NT - (bionerd)
                     Oxymoron alert: "Feds thinking" - (jb4)
                 You know what tells me? - (static) - (1)
                     worship? Who me? hehehehe - (boxley)
             Age of Adulthood is going up - (JayMehaffey) - (5)
                 This is exactly what I said. - (static) - (3)
                     Being able to reproduce doesn't make on an adult. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                         call crapaud - (boxley)
                         You're assuming a 'fully developed brain' is required. - (static)
                 But the word itself is 'graded on a curve' - (Ashton)

Gee whillikers!
155 ms