I really overestimated myself

Post #267,185 by bepatient 9/11/06 9:16:37 AM Reply	I really overestimated myself Thought I could, 5 years later, watch the CNN replay with some detachment. I was completely wrong. I'm, again, 5 years later, literally sick. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #267,186 by Steve Lowe 9/11/06 10:19:09 AM Reply	Glad I'm not the only one. -- Steve [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu]
Post #267,187 by Steve Lowe 9/11/06 10:19:23 AM Reply	Glad I'm not the only one. -- Steve [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu]
Post #267,188 by drewk 9/11/06 10:34:12 AM Reply	"Three dead is a tragedy, three thousand is a statistic" No, it's not true and I know it. But huge numbers tend to come from impersonal acts and events. Someone mistreating their kids can make me sick. What happened at the WTC only hits me intellectually. If I knew anyone there, I'm sure it would be different. Note also that I tend to avoid the shows that focus on "the personal tragedies of $insert_major_event_here". Everyone has a limit to how much outrage and empathy they can summon up, beyond which they're numbed to misfortune. I'd rather save mine for people I know and things I can do something about. No one can stay outraged forever ... at least no one that I want to be around or be like. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #267,190 by bepatient 9/11/06 10:42:24 AM Reply	Its not outrage. And there were several issues keeping me "inside" the events...but the feeling is certainly not intellectual. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #267,203 by pwhysall 9/11/06 12:21:48 PM Reply	I'm much the same. 11th September 2001 was something that happened somewhere else to other people, for me. Harsh? Probably. True? Definitely. Did I have a personal or emotional stake in it in any way? No. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator]
Post #267,207 by boxley 9/11/06 12:31:19 PM Reply	dunno if it helps but if you add all the deaths worldwide from violence, war terrorism and traffic accidents, that number is less than the annual worldwide suicide rate. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #267,208 by pwhysall 9/11/06 12:39:13 PM Reply	It's about as many will die in traffic accidents this month ...in the USA. Which, itself, is a shocking statistic. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator]
Post #267,193 by bionerd 9/11/06 11:12:55 AM Reply	You should be sick. The events of 9/11 were sickening. The work I had to do in the months following 9/11 was sickening. It is my duty and obligation to remember. I owe it to the people who died, and it's a small price to pay.
Post #267,223 by jbrabeck 9/11/06 3:21:44 PM Reply	Why? Why is it your "duty and obligation" to remember? I know it happened. But not to anyone I know personally. I do have a friend who lost a parent. Today also happens to be my father-in-law's birthday. I also won't bother watching any of the political theatrics today, nor the made-for-tv movies. A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. (Herm Albright)
Post #267,236 by bionerd 9/11/06 4:31:41 PM Reply	I guess because All those people were killed just because they went to work that day. They werent soldiers. They werent fighting any war. They said goodbye to their families just like we all do everyday, went to work, and died a terrifying death. It could've been any of us in those offices or on those planes that day. They died. We lived. I counseled hundreds of people in the following weeks and months. I heard story after story from people who escaped the buildings and watched bodies fall. I helped people connect with family members they thought had died. I listened to flight attendants and pilots agonize about going back to their jobs. Maybe it's survivors guilt. So many suffered greatly while the impact on my life was minimal. I dont know. But I need to remember.
Post #267,238 by bionerd 9/11/06 4:36:28 PM Reply	And- my task at work today was to revise our Aviation Disaster Manual. The sections on the morgue, identifying remains, and death notifications were really hard to get through. I hate my job today.
Post #267,264 by xtensive 9/11/06 9:56:02 PM Reply	Do you have the same feeling ... of sickness on behalf of the Iraqi's dying daily? (Honest question, not accusation). mX. "I'm man enough to tell you that I can't put my finger on exactly what my philosophy is now, but I'm flexible." -- Malcolm X
Post #267,267 by bepatient 9/11/06 10:25:40 PM 9/12/06 10:55:07 AM Reply	Victims of the random attacks are tragic but they aren't getting 2900 of them at a time. So there is, at least, a slight difference. What I find more tragic is that in Iraq, the terrorist/insurgent attacks are killing there own...with very little "point"...so for some that could be considered even more tragic. Edit: Point to above paragraph is also echoed in Malegaon blasts in India. The anger/bitterness I attach to cowards who decide to blow people up while mourning and/or at their place of worship is just as present while reading those stories. Again, not as powerful as the WTC because of personal stakes...but still there. And at least one point of our current regime does carry some validity. Look at [link\|http://www.lexpress.mu/display_article.php?news_id=72279\|these acts]. This is the new enemy. Find a crowd of civilians and blow them up. Don't tell anyone why or offer an acceptable middle ground. They don't agree with my reading of war and peace...so they (and their children) deserve to die. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew} Edited by bepatient Sept. 12, 2006, 10:55:07 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #267,294 by bionerd 9/12/06 10:37:06 AM Reply	Yes, but to a lesser degree because I am more removed from them. Havent talked to any of them. Havent seen where they live. I dont identify with them as much. But it still sickens me to hear about innocent people dying because of someone elses agenda. If I was born there instead of here my reality would walk the path of the people living in Iraq today. So yeah. I have sympathy. There but for the grace of God go I.
Post #267,206 by tuberculosis 9/11/06 12:27:59 PM Reply	Why are we at work today? Should be a national holiday for candle lighting, chanting, and mourning the death of the people, the constitution, the ease of air travel... [link\|http://www.blackbagops.net\|Black Bag Operations Log] [link\|http://www.objectiveclips.com\|Artificial Intelligence] [link\|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html\|Scrutinizer]
Post #267,211 by drewk 9/11/06 1:17:04 PM Reply	Cool, another 3-day weekend ... break out the grill === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #267,220 by lincoln 9/11/06 3:07:25 PM Reply	And the mattress sales and furniture and cars and ... lincoln "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem. I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a *Citizen* of the United States. [link\|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net\|contact me]
Post #267,230 by folkert 9/11/06 3:52:48 PM Reply	I was crying this morning. Again. Not hungry at all. Lump in my throat. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned.
Post #267,237 by bionerd 9/11/06 4:33:19 PM Reply	I cried, too.
Post #267,241 by tuberculosis 9/11/06 4:45:56 PM Reply	I remember it like it was yesterday I woke up aboard my sailboat in Sausalito when my cell phone rang with my mom calling. Her first words were "Well we are under attack". I asked what did she mean and she told me a plane had hit the world trade center. I told her she was crazy, must be an accident. After all, the empire state building has been hit by a couple different airplanes - all accidents. She said, no, they think it was suicide hijackers. I crawled out of the v-berth and turned on the radio, listening to the news report while I got dressed, then crawled out of the boat into a sunny, oddly quiet and completely still (no wind) day. I walked down the dock and across the parking lot to Sailors Landing - a seafood restaurant and bar at the marina and my frequent hangout. They weren't due to open for a couple hours but the bartender told me to come in to see the TV. I sat at the bar watching as more and more liveaboards wandered in and stared at the screen in disbelief. Eventually, the bartender assumed his station and we all begin drinking and watching. We all watched the towers collapse - first one, then the other a while later - and nobody could believe it. Eventually I ordered lunch, had a burger, then left when the newscasts began getting repetitive and went back to the boat. I pulled out my climbing gear and went up the mast to do some maintenance, but also to get a better view of the Golden Gate bridge and SF skyline - just in case they were next. Again I was struck by the stillness - no bay vessel traffic to speak of, very little auto traffic on the bridge - in contrast to the chaos of New York. Strange and unforgettable day. I'll be avoiding the TV for the next few days. [link\|http://www.blackbagops.net\|Black Bag Operations Log] [link\|http://www.objectiveclips.com\|Artificial Intelligence] [link\|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html\|Scrutinizer]
Post #267,268 by Nightowl 9/11/06 10:37:17 PM 9/11/06 10:38:16 PM Reply	I did my best to avoid the images on TV today But I did write something about it in my group, later. I'm not sure now if this is appropriate to add to this thread, so I'm going to branch it off this post here and give it a separate thread ok? I haven't seen United 93 or WTC and I can't imagine going to either movie. I have read some of the books, but not many, because it's still too close. I have bought most of them, but don't know when I'll be able to read them. I remember where I was and what I was doing when I found out as well, it was online on a Yahoo group where I first saw the posts about the attack. I like Laura, want and need to remember. I just don't want or need to see the footage again to do it. I'll never forget. Brenda "When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." -- By Geoffrey F. Abert ************************** "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind, don't matter - and those who matter, don't mind." -- By Dr. Seuss ******************************* "Sometimes it takes a whole lot more strength to walk away than to stand there and fight." -- By the character of John Abbott: said on Young & Restless on 5/19/06 ******************************* Edited by Nightowl Sept. 11, 2006, 10:38:16 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #267,270 by Nightowl 9/11/06 10:41:13 PM Reply	How Safe Are We? (new thread) Created as new thread #267269 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=267269\|How Safe Are We?] "When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." -- By Geoffrey F. Abert ************************** "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind, don't matter - and those who matter, don't mind." -- By Dr. Seuss ******************************* "Sometimes it takes a whole lot more strength to walk away than to stand there and fight." -- By the character of John Abbott: said on Young & Restless on 5/19/06 *******************************
Post #267,339 by mmoffitt 9/12/06 2:15:39 PM Reply	Perspective of a 14 year old. Something on the tv came on about it. My 14 year old said, "Dad, can I ask you a question?" She went on to explain that she felt really guilty about feeling this way but that she had grown a little tired of hearing about 9/11. She pointed out that she'd seen pictures of Lebanon, Iraq and Afghanistan and "practically their whole countries looked like Ground Zero." Don't get me wrong, she was very sorry for the losses to the people in NY, but, she wanted to know why NY was so much worse a tragedy than those other places. That question, I must confess, I had no answer for. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #267,341 by jake123 9/12/06 2:19:08 PM Reply	Actually, there's an easy answer: the true one and that is that most elites want to exploit a feeling of false superiority in their peoples, so they they sell this by claiming that their losses are more important than the Other's losses, and she is just seeing our particular version of this. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #267,348 by bionerd 9/12/06 2:43:54 PM Reply	That's human nature It's not elitist. Of course I'm gonna think my problems and losses are greater than yours. Why? Because they're mine.
Post #267,355 by jake123 9/12/06 3:52:57 PM Reply	That may be but our leaders are encouraging that perspective, and trying very hard to get people to further magnify our losses whilst simultaneously minimising theirs. I'm certainly not saying their leaders are not doing the exact same thing. However, I think that (for example) the Palestinian people and their leadership could learn a lot about how to effectively throw their occupiers out by learning a bit about Gandhi. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #267,347 by drewk 9/12/06 2:37:28 PM Reply	I was thinking about the kids, too We were at the library over the weekend and my 6-year-old asked why there were all the tiny flags planted out front. I told her I didn't know. (I wasn't thinking about the date.) When I heard on the radio yesterday that some state government offices were doing that, I realized what it was. Then I realized that I couldn't have explained to my daughter what it was about anyway. It happened before she was aware. I was born in '68, so I was seven when we left Vietnam. But I have no first-hand memories of seeing or hearing anything about it. If I'm typical, there are 12-year-olds walking around today for whom 9/11 is as much a historical incident as Vietnam is for me. This means that if we're still in Iraq through the next administration, we'll be sending kids over there who literally don't remember the event that eventually lead to their trip to Baghdad. We will have been at war their entire lives, as far as they're concerned. They'll have grown up knowing that Muslims are our enemies. Yay for their generation. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #267,358 by Ashton 9/12/06 4:22:09 PM Reply	'We have always been at war with East Asia..' ..which phrase gets 226 [link\|http://handthatfeedsme.blogspot.com/2005/09/we-have-always-been-at-war-with-east.html\| hits]. My condolences go out to every rational person, responsible for somehow ... training-up a replacement.. during the Murder of Language purge years.
Post #267,360 by drewk 9/12/06 4:29:01 PM Reply	You knew that was an Orwell quote? Or you just happened to hit the same phrase? === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #267,363 by Ashton 9/12/06 4:38:52 PM Reply	I've been reading a fine bio of George O A few fascinating chapters at a time, over months. (A pres from a bibliophile friend..) But I'd imagine that any reading of 1984 or the rather-OK movie, would 'create permanent memory' for that phrase (?)
Post #267,365 by drewk 9/12/06 4:41:45 PM Reply	Depressing how often he's still relevant === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #267,379 by Ashton 9/12/06 5:42:50 PM Reply	Re: Depressing how often he's ^h^h the Greeks and most 'old ie mature' cultures have eons-ago taken the measure of what does Not constitute a civilization (..always so much harder to complete any list of what Does, I wot.) An iggerant populace guarantees that we always need a Twain, Mencken, Vonnegut around to reSHOUT this stuff. I thought that ST (Trek) covered that one well, with the skit of the elders-in-togas preventing YAN testosterone shoot-out / planetary invasion - you remember, the one wherein the Klingon, after accepting that the fun was off for today, squealed, It would have been a G l o r i o u s (little?) war!! Before Light! as in ..Let there Be __, -was- cha cha cha :-/
Post #267,382 by jb4 9/12/06 6:47:37 PM 9/12/06 6:47:59 PM Reply	I knew... ...and I was going to post it...but Ash (as usual) beat me to it. jb4 "So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't." — Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06 Edited by jb4 Sept. 12, 2006, 06:47:59 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #267,356 by Ashton 9/12/06 3:59:22 PM Reply	She is old enough (and clearly wise enough) now, to grok [link\|http://www.lnstar.com/mall/literature/warpray.htm\| The War Prayer] (Doubt that any of us can put it in this perspective Quite as well. Hypocrisy - the mother's milk of Mine is the True God\ufffd - and you Heretics Shall burn in Hell cha cha cha.) Hell: a mere 3-6 kG of U²³⁵ and an old howitzer barrel.
Post #267,369 by boxley 9/12/06 5:19:27 PM Reply	I agree with her shelling out the same old spiel about 911 while busily looting the public vaults and denying us our freedom. I just saw an attack commercial. One screen full of Islamic terrorists, "these people want to kill you" another screen of crapaud about cut run and surrender. I have an idea that with some help from Rand would make a nifty youtube commercial same screen "these people want to kill you" second screen shrub cheney gomez rumsfeld and our dear departed friend felix "these people want to take free americans and turn them into vassals enslaved by the state." third screen. This is a war on 2 fronts, lets fight for our freedom at home as well as abroad. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #267,381 by Ashton 9/12/06 6:30:00 PM Reply	Send that to Move On - they have the Will, the $$ and the brains to immediately develop such cute ideas.. not just thank-and-forget. Hell, they're about the only (large-scale, now) 'representatives' still accessible to us proles -- and we're going to Need their better-and-better coordinated work, I wot\ufffd to counter the [#267357] $45 Rove-millions for G\ufffdbbels. Makes more sense than letters to outsourced congresscritter e-mail drops / all that boilerplate 'reply' BS. If'n ya gives a shit, and I thinks ya Do...
Post #267,384 by boxley 9/12/06 7:33:51 PM Reply	wrong messenger, need to bleed it from the grassroots youtube, then links to here, then spam various libertarian sites and a copy to repo.org so they, not move on, will trumpet their nastyness ensuring a good audience. Send it to move on and 40% of the voting audience will shrug and go "them thar libruls" thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #267,387 by Another Scott 9/12/06 8:07:08 PM 9/13/06 9:44:42 AM Reply	I couldn't watch or listen to the coverage either. 36 kB. It mostly struck me as a desperate attempt for ratings and/or publicity. [edit:] This Tom Toles comic sums it up for me pretty well: [image\|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinion/ssi/images/Toles/c_09132006_520.gif\|0\|Vote GOP\|442\|520] :-( Cheers, Scott. Edited by Another Scott Sept. 13, 2006, 09:44:42 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #267,429 by bepatient 9/13/06 10:50:00 AM Reply	Not the coverage I was speaking about I didn't watch any of the "memorials". CNN had a feed of their coverage, synced to the minute, of 9/11/01. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #267,434 by jbrabeck 9/13/06 11:10:56 AM Reply	My wife saw that too - scared her until she realized it was not really live. A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. (Herm Albright)
Post #267,501 by static 9/13/06 9:11:11 PM Reply	The only thing I watched.... ... was a documentary about those who jumped. The first half was about the reaction to the jumping. There was a photo-journalist who took pictures, there were people who witnessed the jumps, there was the sole paper that printed a picture of someone falling. They explored how the media seemed to ignore the jumping people. The latter half was finding out some of the identities of the jumpers and the ramifications of the search and publication of who some of them were, particularly that one published picture. It was a quietly focussed piece, really. I don't recall who made it, but it aired on Australia's government broadcaster, not one of our commercial networks. They preferred the fluff-and-hype specials. No-one needs that. Not us remembering, not those who were involved, not anyone. Well maybe media students in years to come as examples of How Not To Remember. Wade. "Insert crowbar. Apply force."

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