Wow

Post #249,491 by tuberculosis 3/27/06 1:38:17 PM Reply	Wow [link\|http://www.blackbagops.net\|Black Bag Operations Log] [link\|http://www.objectiveclips.com\|Artificial Intelligence] [link\|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html\|Scrutinizer]
Post #249,538 by inthane-chan 3/27/06 4:39:16 PM 3/27/06 4:39:46 PM Reply	What, that surprised you? Hypocrisy has always been the ammunition of choice for the close-minded. When somebody asks you to trade your freedoms for security, it isn't your* security they're talking about.* Edited by inthane-chan March 27, 2006, 04:39:46 PM EST Expand All History
Post #249,539 by tuberculosis 3/27/06 4:42:38 PM Reply	Yeah, but there's plain old hypocracy of people who vote anti-choice but get one anyhow. And then there's the extreme case of people actively picketing our front and sneaking in the back. That's fucked up. Way fucked up. [link\|http://www.blackbagops.net\|Black Bag Operations Log] [link\|http://www.objectiveclips.com\|Artificial Intelligence] [link\|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html\|Scrutinizer]
Post #249,540 by inthane-chan 3/27/06 4:45:27 PM Reply	I must be more jaded than you. I wasn't surprised at all.
Post #249,556 by hnick 3/27/06 6:36:37 PM Reply	Different factors may have been involved. First and foremost, man (includeds women) is not as much a rational creature as a rationalizing creature. A young lady finding herself pregnant, is likely to rationalize a LOT. Secondly, when some of them say "My parents are going to kill me" or "If I change my position, my parents will kick me out of the house" it's not hyperboly. They believe that. My experience may be somewhat outdated, but I suspect that human nature doesn't change that much in a few decades. When I was in high school, late 60's, abortion was illegal in Ohio, with the weasal words that an abortion could be legally performed if the woman was at risk. I had occasion to find a doctor that was partnered, informally, with a brain squeezer, who would state that the girl in question would harm herself if required to take the fetus to term. That made it legal. My girlfriend and I directed a number of friends and acquaintances through that system. At the time, I wasn't aware of pro/anti choice movements. We regarded it as a social necessity. I was suprised at how ambivalent some of the girls were about it. They were truly confused. They should probably have had better advise than that provided by my sweetie and I. In any event, by 1970 or so, it was legal in New York, and the demand dropped. Somewhat later, abortion was legal in Ohio, and it was no long necessary to go through those kind of hoops any more. I have a sneaking suspicion that those times are comng back again.
Post #249,621 by bionerd 3/28/06 10:39:45 AM Reply	No it's not. I will preface this by saying I am pro-choice and have never had an abortion. If I was faced with the need to terminate a pregnancy, I'm not sure what I would do. I dont think any woman does until she reaches that moment. And at that moment, it stops being a political agenda and becomes an unthinkable personal reality. The woman decides to have an abortion because she sees no alternatives. The decision tears at the heart of her moral fiber. It becomes an act of self preservation to deny the undeniable and rationalize the irrational. It's no surprise at all to find her picketing the clinic the next day, probably carrying the biggest sign and chanting the loudest. Follow your MOUSE
Post #249,629 by jake123 3/28/06 11:12:30 AM Reply	That may be but I can also think she's a hypocrite for doing it. Lacking in a certain kind of moral fibre and self-cognition. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #249,648 by jb4 3/28/06 1:54:13 PM Reply	Oh, horse exhaust! It becomes an act of self preservation to deny the undeniable and rationalize the irrational. It's no surprise at all to find her picketing the clinic the next day, probably carrying the biggest sign and chanting the loudest. That's complete and utter bullshit, Laura, and you know it, too! Your "self-preservation" stops at the point of curtailing my rights. Go preserve yourself in a quiet, introspective and self-respecting manner. No amount of "self-preservation" justifies the abject, undeniable, and facistic hypocricy of demanding something for yourself that you would in the next breath deny to everybody else. Sorry, that's just not good enough. (That said in the most emphatic terms I can muster, I do, however, agree with the rest of your post. The conclusion, however, needs rehearsal...). jb4 "Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'." &mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
Post #249,666 by Simon_Jester 3/28/06 4:06:34 PM Reply	I must disagree. I'm not saying it's right...it's not. The woman who has an abortion and is out there demanding that no one has an abortion is not rational. (Neither is the individual who argues that choice all that matters.) Her key argument is this : I dont think any woman does until she reaches that moment. And at that moment, it stops being a political agenda and becomes an unthinkable personal reality. Everyone - both sides - have forgotten the personal reality and are arguing ideology.
Post #249,668 by boxley 3/28/06 4:09:22 PM Reply	naw, its a bunch of men deciding what women do :-) Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #249,674 by drewk 3/28/06 4:30:57 PM Reply	So we'll replace it with women deciding what men do :-P === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #249,679 by jbrabeck 3/28/06 4:49:11 PM Reply	Most of already have, we're married.... A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #249,680 by Silverlock 3/28/06 4:49:21 PM Reply	Isn't that called "life"? ----------------------------------------- Impeach Bush. Impeach Cheney. Do it now.
Post #249,703 by jb4 3/28/06 6:54:20 PM Reply	Agree, and disagree I dont think any woman does until she reaches that moment. And at that moment, it stops being a political agenda and becomes an unthinkable personal reality. Yes, it absolutely does. A reality that changes you. At least, one that should change you. Apparently, for these (agreed) irrational folks, there is no change, there is no reality. There is only the hypocracy of getting for me, and then continuing to deny for all others. I cannot countenance that. Nor can I countenance attempts to rationalize such irrationality by excusing it as "self-preservation" or other such tommyrot. If such a momentous event is not going to change you, then containue to stand there and attempt to intimidate those who would seek a (now, at least) legal and relatively save surgical option. I know a lot more about this issue than I'm willing to talk about here, but I will say this: Anybody who acts thus (solicits an abortion for herself, then would stand and attempt to deny one for any other seeking one), is the most reprehensible waste of protoplasm on the planet, and is not worthy of pity, or rationalization, or even scorn. They are human garbage, and are beneath even the lowest measure of respect. jb4 "Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'." &mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
Post #249,726 by bionerd 3/28/06 8:47:56 PM Reply	I didnt say I condone the behavior But I understand it. Picture a pro-life fanatic who finds herself pregnant, and for whatever reason feels, she has no choice but to get an abortion. That woman has to be in a pretty desperate situation to make that choice. Imagine the guilt, disgust, contempt and self-loathing she must feel. She has to protect herself from her own assault, so her defenses kick in to allow her to cope with her reality and keep her sense of self intact. She denies, distorts, rationalizes and overcompensates to the point where her perception of reality is distorted. She will resume her protesting with a vengence to justify her own sins. This doesnt mean I support her politics or her actions. But I do support her right to choose. Follow your MOUSE
Post #249,696 by warmachine 3/28/06 5:41:06 PM Reply	Then it's rule by the insane Someone who has to make a hard choice and protests, not to ensure no one else has to suffer the same way, but to pretend it never happened. That's rule by the insane. Next, you'll be telling me we should treat fanatical murderers with leniency because they earnestly and genuinely believe their god tells them to do it. Matthew Greet Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
Post #249,704 by jb4 3/28/06 6:55:46 PM Reply	s/fanatical murderers/the pResident jb4 "Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'." &mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
Post #249,710 by boxley 3/28/06 7:16:09 PM Reply	how much time is your nutjob mullah going to do? :-) ours got life without parole. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #249,745 by ben_tilly 3/28/06 10:26:21 PM Reply	Yes it is. Just because you understand how normal defense mechanisms result in people operating in a fucked up manner doesn't make that way of operating any less fucked up. Going from picketing a clinic to getting an abortion there to picketing it again is fucked up. The woman who does that has not accepted responsibility for her own actions, and she will have internal problems as a result. (For instance she either loathes herself or she will find a way to convince herself that her actions were someone else's fault. Either choice is screwed up.) Externally this is obvious from the conflict between how she thinks she should be and the reality of what she is. I agree with you that this is predictable. But it is predictably fucked up, not predictably healthy. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #249,803 by bionerd 3/29/06 11:16:13 AM Reply	Sure, it's not healthy But it allows her to function, even if it's all twisted, so in that sense it's adaptive. Our egos will do anything to protect ourselves, no matter how fucked up it is. That fascinates me. Follow your MOUSE
Post #249,814 by ben_tilly 3/29/06 12:24:25 PM Reply	Sometimes it is better to be fascinated from a distance But you don't have that choice, it is your job to get close to these problems. Luckily I do. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

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