Post #249,477
3/27/06 12:08:11 PM
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interesting points from the pro-choice/anti-abortion front
[link|http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/anti-tales.shtml|http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/anti-tales.shtml] Many anti-choice women are convinced that their need for abortion is unique -- not like those "other" women -- even though they have abortions for the same sorts of reasons. Anti-choice women often expect special treatment from clinic staff. Some demand an abortion immediately, wanting to skip important preliminaries such as taking a history or waiting for blood test results. Frequently, anti-abortion women will refuse counseling (such women are generally turned away or referred to an outside counselor because counseling at clinics is mandatory). Some women insist on sneaking in the back door and hiding in a room away from other patients. Others refuse to sit in the waiting room with women they call "sluts" and "trash." Or if they do, they get angry when other patients in the waiting room talk or laugh, because it proves to them that women get abortions casually, for "convenience".
A few behave in a very hostile manner, such as calling clinic staff "murderers." Years ago, a clinic counselor in British Columbia told me that one of her patients went into the procedure room apparently fine with her decision to have an abortion. During the abortion, at a stage when it was too late to stop the procedure, the woman started screaming "You murderers!" and other invectives at everyone in the room.
A few doctors actually refuse to provide abortions to anti-choice women for liability reasons. In the words of a Kansas physician:
"Early in my career, I thought I was obligated to provide an abortion for every woman who arrived at my doorstep requesting an abortion. My experience in general medicine, surgery, and abortion has led me to believe differently. Not inadvertently, women give either me or my staff an uneasy feeling about their ambivalence or their anxiety about the abortion process. Since I have never been sued for an abortion I did not perform, my policy is to acknowledge my gut feeling, which is more often right than wrong."
[...] Abortion is a highly personal decision that many women are sure they'll never have to think about until they're suddenly faced with an unexpected pregnancy. But this can happen to anyone, including women who are strongly anti-choice. So what does an anti-choice woman do when she experiences an unwanted pregnancy herself? Often, she will grin and bear it, so to speak, but frequently, she opts for the solution she would deny to other women -- abortion.
In the spring of 2000, I collected the following anecdotes directly from abortion doctors and other clinic staff in North America, Australia, and Europe. The stories are presented in the providers' own words, with minor editing for grammar, clarity, and brevity. Names have been omitted to protect privacy.
"I have done several abortions on women who have regularly picketed my clinics, including a 16 year old schoolgirl who came back to picket the day after her abortion, about three years ago. During her whole stay at the clinic, we felt that she was not quite right, but there were no real warning bells. She insisted that the abortion was her idea and assured us that all was OK. She went through the procedure very smoothly and was discharged with no problems. A quite routine operation. Next morning she was with her mother and several school mates in front of the clinic with the usual anti posters and chants. It appears that she got the abortion she needed and still displayed the appropriate anti views expected of her by her parents, teachers, and peers." (Physician, Australia)
"I've had several cases over the years in which the anti-abortion patient had rationalized in one way or another that her case was the only exception, but the one that really made an impression was the college senior who was the president of her campus Right-to-Life organization, meaning that she had worked very hard in that organization for several years. As I was completing her procedure, I asked what she planned to do about her high office in the RTL organization. Her response was a wide-eyed, 'You're not going to tell them, are you!?' When assured that I was not, she breathed a sigh of relief, explaining how important that position was to her and how she wouldn't want this to interfere with it." (Physician, Texas)
"In 1990, in the Boston area, Operation Rescue and other groups were regularly blockading the clinics, and many of us went every Saturday morning for months to help women and staff get in. As a result, we knew many of the 'antis' by face. One morning, a woman who had been a regular 'sidewalk counselor' went into the clinic with a young woman who looked like she was 16-17, and obviously her daughter. When the mother came out about an hour later, I had to go up and ask her if her daughter's situation had caused her to change her mind. 'I don't expect you to understand my daughter's situation!' she angrily replied. The following Saturday, she was back, pleading with women entering the clinic not to 'murder their babies.'" (Clinic escort, Massachusetts)
lincoln
"Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow
Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the United States.
[link|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net|contact me]
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Post #249,491
3/27/06 1:38:17 PM
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Wow
[link|http://www.blackbagops.net|Black Bag Operations Log]
[link|http://www.objectiveclips.com|Artificial Intelligence]
[link|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html|Scrutinizer]
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Post #249,538
3/27/06 4:39:16 PM
3/27/06 4:39:46 PM
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What, that surprised you?
Hypocrisy has always been the ammunition of choice for the close-minded.
When somebody asks you to trade your freedoms for security, it isn't your security they're talking about.
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Post #249,539
3/27/06 4:42:38 PM
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Yeah, but there's plain old hypocracy
of people who vote anti-choice but get one anyhow.
And then there's the extreme case of people actively picketing our front and sneaking in the back.
That's fucked up. Way fucked up.
[link|http://www.blackbagops.net|Black Bag Operations Log]
[link|http://www.objectiveclips.com|Artificial Intelligence]
[link|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html|Scrutinizer]
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Post #249,540
3/27/06 4:45:27 PM
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I must be more jaded than you. I wasn't surprised at all.
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Post #249,556
3/27/06 6:36:37 PM
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Different factors may have been involved.
First and foremost, man (includeds women) is not as much a rational creature as a rationalizing creature. A young lady finding herself pregnant, is likely to rationalize a LOT. Secondly, when some of them say "My parents are going to kill me" or "If I change my position, my parents will kick me out of the house" it's not hyperboly. They believe that. My experience may be somewhat outdated, but I suspect that human nature doesn't change that much in a few decades.
When I was in high school, late 60's, abortion was illegal in Ohio, with the weasal words that an abortion could be legally performed if the woman was at risk. I had occasion to find a doctor that was partnered, informally, with a brain squeezer, who would state that the girl in question would harm herself if required to take the fetus to term. That made it legal. My girlfriend and I directed a number of friends and acquaintances through that system. At the time, I wasn't aware of pro/anti choice movements. We regarded it as a social necessity. I was suprised at how ambivalent some of the girls were about it. They were truly confused. They should probably have had better advise than that provided by my sweetie and I. In any event, by 1970 or so, it was legal in New York, and the demand dropped. Somewhat later, abortion was legal in Ohio, and it was no long necessary to go through those kind of hoops any more.
I have a sneaking suspicion that those times are comng back again.
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Post #249,621
3/28/06 10:39:45 AM
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No it's not.
I will preface this by saying I am pro-choice and have never had an abortion. If I was faced with the need to terminate a pregnancy, I'm not sure what I would do. I dont think any woman does until she reaches that moment. And at that moment, it stops being a political agenda and becomes an unthinkable personal reality. The woman decides to have an abortion because she sees no alternatives. The decision tears at the heart of her moral fiber. It becomes an act of self preservation to deny the undeniable and rationalize the irrational. It's no surprise at all to find her picketing the clinic the next day, probably carrying the biggest sign and chanting the loudest.
Follow your MOUSE
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Post #249,629
3/28/06 11:12:30 AM
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That may be
but I can also think she's a hypocrite for doing it.
Lacking in a certain kind of moral fibre and self-cognition.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #249,648
3/28/06 1:54:13 PM
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Oh, horse exhaust!
It becomes an act of self preservation to deny the undeniable and rationalize the irrational. It's no surprise at all to find her picketing the clinic the next day, probably carrying the biggest sign and chanting the loudest. That's complete and utter bullshit, Laura, and you know it, too! Your "self-preservation" stops at the point of curtailing my rights. Go preserve yourself in a quiet, introspective and self-respecting manner. No amount of "self-preservation" justifies the abject, undeniable, and facistic hypocricy of demanding something for yourself that you would in the next breath deny to everybody else. Sorry, that's just not good enough. (That said in the most emphatic terms I can muster, I do, however, agree with the rest of your post. The conclusion, however, needs rehearsal...).
jb4 "Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'." &mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
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Post #249,666
3/28/06 4:06:34 PM
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I must disagree.
I'm not saying it's right...it's not. The woman who has an abortion and is out there demanding that no one has an abortion is not rational. (Neither is the individual who argues that choice all that matters.)
Her key argument is this : I dont think any woman does until she reaches that moment. And at that moment, it stops being a political agenda and becomes an unthinkable personal reality.
Everyone - both sides - have forgotten the personal reality and are arguing ideology.
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Post #249,668
3/28/06 4:09:22 PM
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naw, its a bunch of men deciding what women do :-)
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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Post #249,674
3/28/06 4:30:57 PM
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So we'll replace it with women deciding what men do :-P
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #249,679
3/28/06 4:49:11 PM
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Most of already have, we're married....
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
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Post #249,680
3/28/06 4:49:21 PM
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Isn't that called "life"?
----------------------------------------- Impeach Bush. Impeach Cheney. Do it now.
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Post #249,703
3/28/06 6:54:20 PM
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Agree, and disagree
I dont think any woman does until she reaches that moment. And at that moment, it stops being a political agenda and becomes an unthinkable personal reality. Yes, it absolutely does. A reality that changes you. At least, one that should change you. Apparently, for these (agreed) irrational folks, there is no change, there is no reality. There is only the hypocracy of getting for me, and then continuing to deny for all others. I cannot countenance that. Nor can I countenance attempts to rationalize such irrationality by excusing it as "self-preservation" or other such tommyrot. If such a momentous event is not going to change you, then containue to stand there and attempt to intimidate those who would seek a (now, at least) legal and relatively save surgical option. I know a lot more about this issue than I'm willing to talk about here, but I will say this: Anybody who acts thus (solicits an abortion for herself, then would stand and attempt to deny one for any other seeking one), is the most reprehensible waste of protoplasm on the planet, and is not worthy of pity, or rationalization, or even scorn. They are human garbage, and are beneath even the lowest measure of respect.
jb4 "Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'." &mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
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Post #249,726
3/28/06 8:47:56 PM
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I didnt say I condone the behavior
But I understand it. Picture a pro-life fanatic who finds herself pregnant, and for whatever reason feels, she has no choice but to get an abortion. That woman has to be in a pretty desperate situation to make that choice. Imagine the guilt, disgust, contempt and self-loathing she must feel. She has to protect herself from her own assault, so her defenses kick in to allow her to cope with her reality and keep her sense of self intact. She denies, distorts, rationalizes and overcompensates to the point where her perception of reality is distorted. She will resume her protesting with a vengence to justify her own sins.
This doesnt mean I support her politics or her actions. But I do support her right to choose.
Follow your MOUSE
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Post #249,696
3/28/06 5:41:06 PM
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Then it's rule by the insane
Someone who has to make a hard choice and protests, not to ensure no one else has to suffer the same way, but to pretend it never happened. That's rule by the insane. Next, you'll be telling me we should treat fanatical murderers with leniency because they earnestly and genuinely believe their god tells them to do it.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #249,704
3/28/06 6:55:46 PM
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s/fanatical murderers/the pResident
jb4 "Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'." &mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
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Post #249,710
3/28/06 7:16:09 PM
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how much time is your nutjob mullah going to do? :-)
ours got life without parole. thanx, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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Post #249,745
3/28/06 10:26:21 PM
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Yes it is.
Just because you understand how normal defense mechanisms result in people operating in a fucked up manner doesn't make that way of operating any less fucked up.
Going from picketing a clinic to getting an abortion there to picketing it again is fucked up. The woman who does that has not accepted responsibility for her own actions, and she will have internal problems as a result. (For instance she either loathes herself or she will find a way to convince herself that her actions were someone else's fault. Either choice is screwed up.) Externally this is obvious from the conflict between how she thinks she should be and the reality of what she is.
I agree with you that this is predictable. But it is predictably fucked up, not predictably healthy.
Cheers, Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #249,803
3/29/06 11:16:13 AM
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Sure, it's not healthy
But it allows her to function, even if it's all twisted, so in that sense it's adaptive. Our egos will do anything to protect ourselves, no matter how fucked up it is. That fascinates me.
Follow your MOUSE
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Post #249,814
3/29/06 12:24:25 PM
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Sometimes it is better to be fascinated from a distance
But you don't have that choice, it is your job to get close to these problems.
Luckily I do.
Cheers, Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #249,520
3/27/06 3:17:35 PM
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"Do as I say, not as I do!"
(Which is, of course, the mating call of the North American Yellow-bellied Neofascist....)
jb4 "Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'." &mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
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Post #249,533
3/27/06 4:26:30 PM
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Suggests a new tactic
A few, non-medical personnel should steal the patient lists and publish the names, appointment dates and places of known anti-choicers. It's a low tactic but that's never stopped the anti-choicers.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #249,554
3/27/06 5:58:44 PM
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and let some scared waif have even less choice?
predict a run on soon to be forbidden wire coat hangers. thanx, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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Post #249,558
3/27/06 7:21:27 PM
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I'm for it
I have a strong dislike for hypocrisy.
Cheers, Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #249,570
3/27/06 8:49:17 PM
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Me too
They're asking a lot of the physican/patient relationship when they do that. I'm quite impressed by the Drs who keep their traps shut.
[link|http://www.blackbagops.net|Black Bag Operations Log]
[link|http://www.objectiveclips.com|Artificial Intelligence]
[link|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html|Scrutinizer]
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Post #249,571
3/27/06 9:40:04 PM
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here's why not
when I was working as a bouncer there was a cute couple, guy was about 5'1 inch 130lbs, she was about 5'5 145-150. They had been dating a long time. Both extremely nice people never had a problem wih him. I was standing at the end of the bar so I could watch both doors. Place was loud couldnt hear. They guy starts beating the living fuck out of her. Myself and my co-worker an off duty cop could barely maintain him. Ended up having to choke him out. She went to the hospital, he went to jail. She had just told him that she had an abortion. No one knows how any particular man will react to that news.
Another friend drug his girl to the clinic and said abortion here or hospital for a week, pick one.
there is a reason not to publisize names of people who have had them. thanx, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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Post #249,575
3/27/06 10:37:53 PM
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Yeah, not caring here
You want to quietly oppose it, then go get one when you need it? Afraid for your health (from a beating) if they find out? Yes, you've got my sympathy. Some people get caught in a bad position.
But you go out on the picket lines, that IMO goes beyond "caught in a bad position". WARNING WARNING WARNING! GODWIN ALERT! That's like ... Bah, you can make the analogy yourself.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #249,586
3/27/06 11:40:22 PM
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I didn't suggest publicizing all names...
just the ones who vocally oppose free choice by intimidating people at clinics.
Same principle as the gays who out gay politicians who have publically taken anti-gay positions.
If that puts some people's lives at risk, I'm sorry but they were actively trying to ruin other people's lives and make them feel threatened. What goes around, comes around.
As for the other moron, he obviously doesn't understand what the word choice in the phrase pro-choice means.
Although I personally think that a man should have the option, early in a woman's pregnancy, of deciding to not be liable for child care if he is willing to fund an abortion. He shouldn't be able to force her to abort. But she shouldn't make him pay for the rest of his life when it was her choice.
Cheers, Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #249,559
3/27/06 7:25:23 PM
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Don't think vocal protesters are scared waifs
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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