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New Get a flashlight, a powerful one
and look behind the wheels. What you're looking for is the attachment points, where the suspension is attached to the unibody. Also the bolts where the bumper goes onto the structure, and (if you can get to them) the radiator support bolts.

If the car's been crashed, you'll find one or both of two things: bumps and ripples around the bolts and brackets, or weld seams where it's been "clipped". It might be handy to find one you know is good and look it over first, for comparisons. Also check inside the engine compartment for suspension attach points visible there. While you're at it, see if you can see the seams where the individual body parts were bolted together -- where the fenders go into the cowl, for instance. On a Honda, those should be straight or smoothly curved, with no ripples or tears.

Check the exhaust system hanger brackets. They should hang straight, not pulled out of vertical, and none of them should be broken, especially in a car with only 6K miles.

You're in Northern CA, right? Look out for underbody tar aka "undercoating". Covers a multitude of sins.

Check the fluids. At 6000 miles, all except possibly the engine oil should be clear and smell right -- no "burned" smell to brake, transmission, or power steering fluid, and the coolant should be translucent green, have a faint smell of glycol (like a cross between alcohol and paraffin), and be very slightly greasy to the fingers. Engine oil should still be somewhat clear; it'll be grayish. If it's solid black, cut your offer by ten percent. [In any case, if you buy the car, change the oil and filter immediately, then repeat every thousand miles for three iterations.] Check the serpentine belt for any rips, wear points, broken grooves, etc. Start the engine and listen to the bearings of each of the accessories -- water pump, power steering pump, alternator, and AC compressor -- using a rubber hose as a stethoscope. Does the fan have any nicks on the leading edge? Is the back of the radiator dented, with any of the fins crushed, or does it have wear marks on it? Does the electric fan motor run when it's supposed to, without bearing noises?

If you really want to get thorough, get the thing up on a lift, the kind that picks up the body and leaves the wheels hanging; you can also jack it, but the effect isn't quite the same. There should be no play at all in any of the wheel bearings, front and rear; grab the tire on a diameter and try to twist it out of plane. If you feel any movement at all, the bearings are damaged. Then spin the wheels; they should spin freely, with no sound at all. Hondas have ball bearings; there should be no sound but a soft swish. A rumble or buzz as the wheel turns indicates brinneled races and/or damaged balls. Now try to push or pull in and out. No movement, clicks, clunks, etc. allowed. Push left and right (forward and back as the car runs). A very little play is allowed here, but if you can see the wheel move, you don't want the car.

Now take the steering out of lock and pull one wheel through the full left/right motion. It should be smooth, with no catch points; any jerk or hesitation makes the steering box rack-and-pinion quesionable (a high-dollar repair). Repeat for the other side. Note that if you can pull the front wheels out of plane without moving the steering wheel, something in the steering gear is loose; find it. [Many such repairs are relatively cheap, if the mounting points are straight.]

Look at all four brake disks. At 6K miles, they should look nearly new; you might be able to see traces of the alternate-spiral finishing cut on them. In any case, no, repeat no, circumferential grooves or gouges allowed. If the rotors have patches that are "blued" from heat, or if the edge looks as if it's been heated, the brakes have been overused. Check the color of the brake fluid -- it should be nearly colorless. Check the pins the calipers float on. Can you see any wear outside the caliper itself? If so, the rotors are warped. [Note that, on a Honda, overuse of the brakes is disqualifying only if you're paying a lot for the car. If you're getting it really cheap, forget the brake check and do the rest of it -- then take it to a brake shop directly from the lot.]

While it's on the rack, check the boots on the CV joints (on the half-shafts from transmission to wheels). No cracks or leaking lubricant allowed, and the half-shafts themselves should not have any sideways play detectable by hand. The splines where the half-shafts join the differential should be smoothly worn and bright.

Next, look closely at the places where the strikers meet the latches on doors, hood, and trunk or deck lid. Also the rubber seals (weatherstripping) around the door. Hondas are built very nicely true; if the door latch strikers don't meet on center, or if you can see signs around the latches that the striker has been forced off center, worry. Also check the rubber bits and plastic parts that make the latches quiet and keep the door from rattling. A twist of the car will usually shear or dent those.

Don't sweat dings in body panels. Those can be straightened or replaced. It's the underneath stuff that makes the difference between a good car and a lemon. If you're stealing it, you can afford to play around with body parts.

One thing I've seen experienced people do: go to a wrecking yard and try to find a car like that that really has been wrecked. Amazing what you can see when the guy who owns the car isn't trying all that hard to make it look good.
Regards,
Ric
New Gracias all, for the comprehensive lists.
I did carfax right away = not 'salvage' or flood - or such things as involve insurance cos, and get put on permanent title (forever). Priv. party has it, bought at auction. But the purchase dates + miles from that to first auction sale, suggest a story (prolly theft, minor trashing of an originally leased car).

Fluids clean - brake fluid perfectly clear. Rotor showed a small corroded spot I deem from being parked for quite a while and not the blue of overheating all around (it's the shape of the pad!) No grooves or wear signs. Unless driven a lot with speedo disconnected (a new one also gets put on title - in CA), mileage may.. be true.

Natch I suspect everything and believe little of the guy's apparent (?) ignorance of many details. After it sits a while at the current price (set for the naive) - only if he accepts my lo-ball offer, that will be contingent upon:

Getting it to a frame place with factory specs and experience of the very details you mentioned. Natch I'll look too, from underneath the rack, and in trunk . Good point about the chop & weld.. Will take all the time I want.

Encouraging is - hands off steering, response to deliberate swoops, feel of rack & pinion (though not as you suggest - off load), etc. = it passed all the subtle driving aspects and it runs perfectly. I used a screwdriver as stethoscope on valve cover. Also got out of a similar one I'd just driven 50 miles. Hmm - it's like auditioning a stereo: how much of the first 'experience' can you remember, 10 minutes later (?)

Anyway... forensic chess game. The trick will be in looking at as many clueful places as I can for ~ 2 hours of shop time, and verifying the frame test points w/ laser goodies that are all the rage. Methinks his lack of a good story will turn off the naive - or the too-smart-to take Any risk.

But I'm willing to take Some risk, and pay the pro to reduce that. (Only way I'd be getting an '00 Acura in any case!)

Thanks again for all the hints. I'll make up a check sheet for the frame guy. Fun! and: it's about physics !!!


Ashton
who will fess up if I do get it and later have to moan..

D'Oh.. :(
New Before you pay for a frame alignment check
drive through a puddle onto dry pavement and check the tire tracks. If the back tires tracks don't exactly cover the front tire tracks, it's probably whacked something fairly hard.

another .02
Hugh
New Even if it has been whacked and fixed....
What really matters is the QUALITY of the repairs...

I have owned many a "salvage" vehicles, and there is a tremendous difference in QOW or Quality of Workman^H^H^Hpersonship (PC I know... bleh).

Fer instance I looked at a 6 month old 92 Taurus SHO... nice car inside and out. Only thing it was a salavge. It was 10K being 6 months and 5K miles on it. FAR below what it should have been even for that.

I know the owner of a Ford Dealership here in GR, he said anytime I have a questionable car, bring it on in he'll have it checked on a the measurement machine, whilst I wait. I did, I bought the car, I Just gave it to my Mom as I bought a new car again. What really struck me about the comments coming from the body repair guy doing the work (whom I know also) led me to believe nothing but good.

Things he pointed out:

1) Welds done to the point of making them look "stock", though done with MIG
2) Panels being shrunk and flattened properly after being "bent" and "bent back"
3) OEM quality repair part and panels being used
4) A partial clip (front right) being done in such a way as to not compromise the integrity of the unibody frame.
5) Quality of the spray job, was not OEM type, but was excellent.
6) The car had one major flaw in it, it measured closer to the spec than an "off the truck" car.


So, if you can get an honest shakedown of the car... and it is liveable by you.. get it!!!

greg, curley95@attbi.com -- REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!
In 2002, everyone will discover that everyone else is using linux. ** Linux: Good, fast AND cheap. ** Failure is not an option: It comes bundled with Windows. ** "Two rules to success in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know." - Sassan Tat
Expand Edited by gfolkertold Jan. 19, 2002, 10:15:02 PM EST
New Thanks, a good reminder
that there are indeed car people who both know and perform. I used to know a master frame / alignment guy, and he mentioned some of the points you did - but I guess that I most often expect less. Now.

One thing in my favor - whatever were the machinations, the 'event' wasn't sufficient to total the beast, in opinion of whatever inspector.. hence the weirdness. Besides, the general paranoia about *any* body damage seems to work in favor of those of us willing to at least consider the matter more carefully.

TANSTAAFL but sometimes.. ya get hors d'ouevres.

I recall a series of articles in The Motor Cycle (Brit weekly of another era) which began with a picture of a really ratty Calthorpe that looked as if it'd been stored in a bat cave. Piece by piece they demonstrated the fine art of restoration.. somewhere I may have saved the lot. All sorts of cute tricks to straighten, reproduce, refinish. When they finished, it was fully functional and looked better than good (they weren't trying for museum grade IIRC).

But the hours.. {sigh}. It was indeed another era. (Still, even today a Vincent would be worth such attention - almost cost effective.)



Ashton
who needs to remember not to get attached.. to this project: once you WANT it to work/somehow: RIP objectivity :(
New Quality repairs
(Sorry, I am just getting my fix of the LRPG in)

My car was T-boned by (believe it or not) a tow truck. My coworkers were all confused as to why there were TWO tow trucks at the intersection. One was the offending truck, the other was to carry my car away.

So far, it's been OK (but god dang, 6000 in repair work? Insurance company paid, but begawl. At the time I did sorta hope it got totalled, but I guess the repairs cost less than totalling. :=( )

But yup, these things are important to look for in used cars.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
New more on salvaged cars
after saying hullo at 80 mph to six other vehicles in an intersection as well as a brick retaining wall by the gas station. (friend driving I missed this one) he purchased another 1970 charger sans running gear and front end cut both in half and made one servicable unit out of them. Looked good drove straight all by eyeball and feel. My bud is a master craftsman with his hands, carpentry, mechanics etc. He just doesnt care to do it for a living. Too busy living life I guess.
thanx,
bill
My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
New Master craftsman maybe..
But anyone driving through Any 'intersection' at 80 ain't "living life" - he's a menace to all. You don't do 80 'cept on Interstates and.. those precious few remaining legs of normal roads in between ANY 'intersection' these will have.

In my judgmental humble opinion, that is. There are no 'accidents' - (save the 1%? mech failures Not due to idiot non-maintenance) - just, usually dumbth of this kind: which took out SIX OTHERS ???

Charger ? As judge I'd sentence him to slammer time + nothing larger than a Geo Metro - for life. Some folk stay 12 for life - should drive cars which limit their damage to their IQ.


Ashton Nemesis
New Similar to what they do with motorcyclists...
in so far as a learner rider can only have a bike with <= 250cc engine.
If it were practical, limiting the power/engine size of bad drivers' cars could be a good idea.
On and on and on and on,
and on and on and on goes John.
New Why did you assume it was his fault? :)
Actually he was doing 80 (too fast I agree) to an intersection on green when a drunk decided he had time to cross the red light. 6 cars was richochets off the first one. There is no such thing as an accident, all such things are errors in judgement.
thanx,
bill
My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
New Well, 80mph would be a contributing factor
Even if (technically) it wasn't his fault.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
     Auto body: Anyone know about repair hints? CRC? - (Ashton) - (34)
         check frame and also check the upholstery - (boxley) - (1)
             Ha! Hadn't thought about the title - (Ric Locke)
         Get a flashlight, a powerful one - (Ric Locke) - (10)
             Gracias all, for the comprehensive lists. - (Ashton) - (9)
                 Before you pay for a frame alignment check - (hnick)
                 Even if it has been whacked and fixed.... - (folkert) - (7)
                     Thanks, a good reminder - (Ashton)
                     Quality repairs - (wharris2) - (5)
                         more on salvaged cars - (boxley) - (4)
                             Master craftsman maybe.. - (Ashton) - (3)
                                 Similar to what they do with motorcyclists... - (Meerkat)
                                 Why did you assume it was his fault? :) - (boxley) - (1)
                                     Well, 80mph would be a contributing factor - (wharris2)
         A few comments on car buying 2002 - (Ashton) - (20)
             VW? Volvo? Audi? or (gasp!) TurboDiesel Jeep Cherokee?! -NT - (Meerkat) - (1)
                 Uhhh________nope. -NT - (Ashton)
             okay GIVE wankel motor? -NT - (boxley)
             I know I know I know! It's a Honda! - (Another Scott)
             If not that Honda, a Mercedes Diesel? - (CRConrad)
             So near.. and yet so far - (Ashton) - (14)
                 Never 'eard of 'im! - (Meerkat)
                 Someone at work has/had one. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                     In-line engine - (Ashton)
                 Ah. Didn't know those have fives; they were never sold here. - (CRConrad) - (8)
                     Badge Engineering - (Meerkat) - (1)
                         Even the Munificent LRPD does it!___"Now, new ChiaLRPD[tm]!" -NT - (Ashton)
                     WTF - aren't strikethrough (<s>) tags supposed to work here? -NT - (CRConrad) - (4)
                         Yes. - (static) - (2)
                             What CRC is doing OK according to O'Reilly HTML book. - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                                 Hmm. - (static)
                         Use the source, Luke. - (a6l6e6x)
                     The rebadging scam - (Ashton)
                 neat tidy muted pizazz, looks good! -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                     And then.. - (Ashton)

At times I feel uncomfortably sure that I was a sysadmin by trade.
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