Typical GenX: Always with the finger pointing!

Post #245,755 by jb4 2/22/06 1:36:16 PM Reply	Typical GenX: Always with the finger pointing! You sound just like we did when we were your age.......... jb4 "Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'." &mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
Post #245,765 by jake123 2/22/06 2:47:14 PM Reply	Your age? I'm nearly forty. Simply put, it's very easy to see the prioritization has shifted to health care in policy, and it's not too hard to figure out why. Boomers have more votes than us. Most people in my age group hate boomers in the collective, if not individually. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #245,767 by hnick 2/22/06 2:56:29 PM Reply	How inconsiderate of us not to die conveniently... If we had any sense of justice we'd just give up our businesses or jobs to you guys and drop dead before we have to tap the system we spent our lives paying into. I suppose we're just a bunch of inconsiderate bastards. Ever heard the term "whiney little fucker"?
Post #245,797 by jake123 2/22/06 4:39:53 PM Reply	Whiny little fucker indeed. Enjoy your entitlements. I'm the one who gets to pay for them after you stop working. You sure you want to piss me off? --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #245,799 by hnick 2/22/06 4:43:56 PM Reply	ROFL And just when do you suspect that I'm going to get to quit working? Not in my lifetime. Come now... admit it. You guys just hate a whole generation 'cause you're mad jealous of our eldritch skills in picking the correct parents in the correct space and time.
Post #245,800 by jake123 2/22/06 4:46:37 PM Reply	Yeah, that's it. That's the ticket. I envy you for your eldritch skills. Also, you seem to be having trouble reading what I wrote, when I distinguished between "individuals" and "groups". Now go fuck yourself. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #245,802 by ben_tilly 2/22/06 4:58:12 PM Reply	Don't shoot the messenger Speaking as a 36 year old, Jake is right. People in our age bucket do not like the boomer generation much. We don't want to hear about Woodstock again. We don't want to hear about how you nearly changed the world. We believe that the hippies as a group were as selfish and hypocritical as they were as yuppies later. Now there are many exceptions. Every large group of people has a lot of variation. And I don't think that the boomers are any better or worse than any other group. But. We. Never. Stop. Hearing. About. You. It. Gets. Very. Old. It is just a question of numbers. There aren't that many in my age range. There are a lot of boomers. And a lot of generation X. So the foibles of the boomer generation will completely dominate our culture until the foibles of generation X take over. And as outsiders from both groups, people in my age group are left out of the national conciousness and will be forever. Regards, Ben PS About "not dying conveniently", as a group the boomers are going to wish they had. Social Security and Medicare are headed for a trainwreck. (A trainwreck caused by stupid politicians who don't want to honor debts, but a trainwreck nonetheless.) And most boomers don't have their retirements together. It won't be pretty. I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #245,817 by hnick 2/22/06 6:14:34 PM Reply	I'm kind of sick of hearing about them myself I can't speak for a generation, and probably wouldn't if I could. That said, I'm kind of sick of hearing about 30 year old shit myself. There were some fun times. You had to be there. There were some major fuckups. Best if you weren't there. It's done. Mostly, I just try to blend in. Out of curiosity, what culture followed the boomers? More drugs? Even more massive consumerism, largely on credit cards? Remakes of 60's and 70's music? So what do the collective "you" want? Endless lines shuffling into and out of the Walmarts? I suspect that society is an entropic process and that it's going to get less social until it finally breaks. The younger ones are going to pay for the older ones until the breakdown. And I suspect that they will all bitch about it. Paying, not the breakdown. After the breakdown, the younger ones will bitch about the older ones that trashed civilization. Obviously, I'm guessing. As for your last point, I have been responsible about our retirement, and I don't think it's going to help. I expect to lose everything to the second major disease I get. The first will lose me my job and insurance, and the second one will wipe me out. Best to be dead by then. I'm not putting a lot of trust in the goodness of the next generations to keep this ponzi game going. YMMV.
Post #245,831 by ben_tilly 2/22/06 8:30:49 PM Reply	Please note that... the culture that followed the boomers that you're pointing to were also mostly boomer phenomena. Everything is until you hit what is clearly generation X. There are simply too few people born during the baby bust (I was born in 1969) to drive mass culture. Even though when you look at the official categorization, I'm generation X and Jake is a boomer, we have more chronologically in common with each other than either of us does with the boomers or generation X. As for your guessing, I'm guessing that you're basically right. (The younger ones are already bitching about the elders who are trashing civilization.) If Kevin Phillips is right, that breakdown is due in about 9 years... Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #245,957 by jake123 2/23/06 4:36:35 PM Reply	Nay, I'm X I was born in '67. I'm only two years older than you. Generally, the end of the boom (in Canada at least) was '65, or at least that's how most people call it up here. I think one big difference is that my parents were depression babies, not war babies; it was my grandparent's generation that went to fight world war ii, not my parents. I might add that they all did, despite all being in their thirties at the time. My maternal grandfather did the low countries, my paternal grandfather was killed in Italy, and my step grandfather spent a good chunk of the war in a german POW camp after being shot down. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #245,961 by ben_tilly 2/23/06 5:01:54 PM Reply	By that definition I am a boomer. :-) My father fought in WW II. My grandfathers in WW I. My mother was a Depression baby. But I don't share much experience with either the boomers or generation X. Heck, I missed out on most of what my peers experienced as well. (No TV, little interest in mass media. It is amazing how that changes your life.) Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #245,820 by broomberg 2/22/06 7:21:43 PM Reply	You're just jealous At least of the later boomers. Our sex and drug use was pure hedonism, we did not pretend it was for spirituality (at least the honest ones didn't). The drug laws were rarely enforced. Pot was cheap and readily available. Hell, you could even choose between Mexican brown, Columbian (gold or red), Thai, hashish, or Hawaiian. Exotic chemicals were a phone call away, ready to be delivered, for a reasonable price. A pound of really good pot cost about $400. We grew up on really good music, lots of variations to choose from (Disco doesn't count, it sucked). Venerial diseases were all curable, none life threatening unless you ignored them for years. Good times! I turned 18 in 1981. I'd say around 1983 it all went to hell. Reagan had been around long enough for his damage to start becoming apparent, AIDs hit the public eye, crack started hitting big, triggering a major backlash, "War on Drugs" became a big deal, the whole mood of the country tanked. I'd say it took another 10 years or so for the music to really go to shit. [link\|http://www3.sympatico.ca/gary.lessard/timeline.htm\|http://www3.sympatic...sard/timeline.htm]
Post #245,826 by ben_tilly 2/22/06 8:18:24 PM Reply	Dream on I've never been into drugs. To my musical tastes, the music you love is crap. The sex sounds nice, but I know myself. Some people simply aren't wired to enjoy casual sex, and I'm one of them. My emotions get attached. And incidentally you just showed one of the absolute worst boomer traits, that insane smugness of believing that your crap was the greatest thing that ever happened. Regards, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #245,851 by broomberg 2/22/06 9:49:42 PM Reply	tee heee As my brother likes to tell his daughter: We used up all the fun.
Post #245,854 by rcareaga 2/22/06 10:04:09 PM Reply	pay no attention to that imposter Turned 18 in 1981? Puh-leeze. Yeah, yeah, technically a "boomer" in the somewhat overbroad definition of 1945-1965 hatchings, but c'mon. I don't care how precocious he might have been: six years old at the end of the sixties doesn't entitle you to wear the tie-dye and patchouli. Now, as to your carpings, young Tillwalker: The drugs...the drugs could be fun (or so I've been told—hereafter [OSIBT] or just an asterisk). Yeah, some folks couldn't handle them (I do not wish to re-ignite here the lengthy set-to with mmoffitt of a couple of years back, entertaining though that was), and in retrospect I'm inclined to think that some of the then-popular ergot alkaloids would probably not be readily available to teenagers in a perfect world, though I suspect they might be usefully administered to subjects in their mid-twenties whose opinion-forming processes are just starting to calcify. I can find nothing ill to say about marijuana except that it remains illegal, and that* fact, the persistence of the ludicrous "war in drugs" into the present century, is a damning indictment of the political cowardice of my generation. According to most of my informants, marijuana imparts a delightful free-associative state: a musician of my acquaintance once compared it to a good jam session, adding however that in her experience actual jam sessions seldom if ever took any benefit from adding drugs to the mix. Cocaine, I am advised, requires a special, not overrepresented personality type in order to approach it with the proper take-it-or-leave-it attitude, and heroin users, of course, pay a terrible price from time to time for spurning their own endorphin production. Still, that you've "never been into drugs" does not invalidate the experience for the boomers or, come to that, for your own contemporaries or juniors. As to music, well, tastes do differ, don't they? If the music broomberg loves is crap, reflect upon Sturgeon's Law: ninety percent of everything is crap (except, I suppose, for crap itself, which is presumably 100%). Certainly much of the 1960s product was dross, and one-hit wonders like, say, the [link\|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawberry_Alarm_Clock\|Strawberry Alarm Clock] have been deservedly forgotten. Other ditties of the period live on, and have likely endured through a cultural process distantly analogous to natural selection. I recently heard a radio piece on the Brill Building songwriters (tunesmiths of American pop in the decades prior to the so-called British Invasion), one of whom was quoted to the effect of "If we'd only realized we were writing classics, we'd have taken more time with them." But again, what's crap to you is gold to others, and quite likely vice-versa. "Casual sex"...well, that's a moving target of a definition if ever I heard one. My catting around days are a receding memory, but even back in the day I preferred coupling with an element of figure-and-ground. What I liked about the era, both then and in retrospect, was that young women having just discovered reliable and unobtrusive contraception after being raised from girlhood on horror stories of the shame ond obloquy attending unplanned pregnancies "out of wedlock," as the quaint phrase had it, were disposed to take these now safe-to-drive genitals out on the track. My elder brother didn't have it nearly so easy in 1965, when he was a freshman, and a colleague of mine, fourteen years my senior, used to horrify me with accounts of the sieges and strategems (most involving strong drink) he had to employ as an undergraduate in the Fifties to part the co-eds from their knickers. Believe me, Benjamin, by the standards of that milieu just about every coupling you ever enjoyed without benefit of clergy would have qualified as "casual sex," so let's have no sermons from your high horse. And finally..."the greatest thing that ever happened"? Of course not. A lot of marketers pitch that message and a lot of boomers buy into it (not uniquely: say "greatest generation" to an eightysomething and watch him purr), but it was just one historical/cultural moment, and living through it was a matter of chance and not a mark of moral excellence. Still, and speaking as one who was far more a consumer of the Sixties than an actor in them (though my bride and I did make it together, not quite 36 years before we wed, to a campus demonstration on the first 1969 Moratorium Day), it was an extraordinary period quite distinct from each of the decades preceding and following it. I've spoken to people of my parents' generation about WWII, and they all speak of the exhilaration attending the sense of being swept up in great events. In their case they had a cause congruent with national policy (the defeat of Germany and Japan); the leading edge of the boomers began with a similar congruity (JFK's call to arms, to "bear any burden" in the "fight for freedom") and enormous energy which, redirected by disillusionment, found its expression against that policy, with the original exhilaration augmented by the shockwave of the bounce against those violated ideals. I do not say that I and mine are better than you for having lived through that moment; I say merely that we are different. But every generation seems to pass through a period when the world is young and green and fraught with possibilities even as their elders lament the falling off in standards from their golden age. There is of course no reason for you to be jealous of broomberg (whose post probably implicitly carried with it the "slippery" sign), but a wholesale disparagement of the boomer experience seems unwarranted. cordially, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #245,875 by CRConrad 2/23/06 4:45:38 AM Reply	The lady doth protest too much, methinks. Geesh, what a humongous apologia -- and it's the exact same old blah-blah-now-he's-telling-us-the-same-old-shit-about-the-sixties-AGAIN that Barry already did say, only he did it so many words less! And no, to me it does NOT look as if Barry was being sarcastic; not in the sense of self-irony that you are apparently trying to imply. More like he was being snide -- out of the same smugness that you display here! You just affect to do so in a more avuncular / professorial manner... Newflash: It's still just as annoying. But I suspect that deep down somewhere, you already knew that... Because why else would you need to protest so much? Listen, Unca Randy: Yes, you and Barry are both probably right: Your generation did really, in all likelihood, have a heckofalot more fun than ours is ever going to get to have. (Not, mainly, because you "used up all the fun", but rather more probably because you used up all the MONEY.) Thing is, though: How fucking stupid do you have to be, to be (or even act) so surprised that this causes some resentment?!? Normally, we're pretty much resigned to our lot, though... Far from demonstrtating any "wholesale disparagement of the boomer experience", what Jake and Ben are saying here is that we just don't want to HEAR about it all the frigging time -- whether it be in Barry's tone of unapologetic glee, or in your mock-sympathetic ones, what "seems unwarranted" here, are the _constant reminders_ of how much fucking more fun the world was in your day. Can't we just NOT get our faces rubbed in that the whole damn time, please? Thank you. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Yes Mr. Garrison, genetic engineering lets us correct God's horrible, horrible mistakes, like German people. - [link\|http://maxpages.com/southpark2k/Episode_105\|Mr. Hat]
Post #245,933 by rcareaga 2/23/06 12:00:27 PM Reply	s/less/fewer/ ...and if we cannot rely on you favorite nephew o'mine, to observe these subtle distinctions, then indeed I weep for your generation and tremble for our future. Now stop carping or I will bore you again! indulgently, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #245,943 by pwhysall 2/23/06 1:38:33 PM Reply	Ahem. ...and if we cannot rely on you, favorite nephew o'mine, to observe these subtle distinctions, then indeed I weep for your generation and tremble for our future. Glad to see that someone is on the ball around here. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #245,886 by broomberg 2/23/06 7:52:37 AM 2/23/06 7:53:30 AM Reply	That was part of my point six years old at the end of the sixties doesn't entitle you to wear the tie-dye and patchouli. I'm NOT a child of the 60s. Hippiedom was over before I started. I don't pretend to be a flowerchild. I don't claim to be part of the group that espoused "peace, love, and understanding", and then claimed their experimental sex and drug use was in pursuit of that. My portion was more like "peace, pot, and microdot" combined with "sex, drugs, and rock and roll". But according to one timeline of boomers (I've seen many), my birthyear was the last year. And my father was in the army during WW2, which is one of the definitions. We were the generation of children of parents returning from WW2. I'd say the perfect movie the describes my existance growing up is Dazed and Confused. [link\|http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106677/\|http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106677/] Edited by broomberg Feb. 23, 2006, 07:53:30 AM EST Expand All History
Post #245,962 by jb4 2/23/06 5:03:08 PM 2/23/06 5:09:26 PM Reply	Hey...Don't badmouth "Incense and Peppermints" Certainly much of the 1960s product was dross, and one-hit wonders like, say, the Strawberry Alarm Clock have been deservedly forgotten. There are people out there who have spent several thousand dollars in stomp-boxes trying to get their axes to sound like that wonderfully overdriven lead guitar. (Now, that damn Farfisa is another story, but given the technology of the times, and some brilliant mixing, it's still beats the snot out of anything Vox produced, regardless of the color of their keys!) jb4 "Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'." &mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration Edited by jb4 Feb. 23, 2006, 05:09:26 PM EST Expand All History
Post #245,965 by bepatient 2/23/06 5:14:35 PM Reply	I'm with you there. but we could do without the Archies If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #245,836 by Another Scott 2/22/06 8:59:45 PM Reply	I saw it differently. I was born in 1961, so I'm a boomer, but certainly not of the same mold as Donald Trump or Bill Gates or Bill Clinton or Steve Jobs. IMO, things started going to Hell in 1974. Gas prices went through the roof and increased more in 1979. The economy seemed to be slowly self-destructing during the 1970s: cars, steel, inflation, etc. Drugs were available, but certainly not as common as 3.2% beer. Some of us were scared to death of Herpes - which still can't be cured. I understand Jake's resentment - I feel some of it too. It seemed like the American dream that we heard about in grade school and middle school started to crumble just as I was getting old enough to start being part of it. But it's best not to blame a generation for the problems. It's probably better to blame ... :-) Cheers, Scott. (Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.)
Post #245,837 by hnick 2/22/06 9:07:23 PM Reply	Nostalgia's fine... as long as you don't look back
Post #245,838 by Another Scott 2/22/06 9:10:08 PM Reply	:-)
Post #245,855 by Andrew Grygus 2/22/06 10:06:43 PM 2/22/06 10:08:26 PM Reply	Back in '84 I showed up at a company picnic . . . . . dressed "casual" with my broad brimmed leather hat, embroidered peasant blouse, beads, fancy belt buckle - all the trimmings. Some teens pointed at me and called out "'60s! '60s!". I just smiled at them and said, "Eat your heart out - you weren't there". [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx] Edited by Andrew Grygus Feb. 22, 2006, 10:08:26 PM EST Expand All History
Post #245,937 by bionerd 2/23/06 1:14:07 PM Reply	I have never wanted you more :-) Do men even wear "blouses"? Follow your MOUSE
Post #245,939 by drewk 2/23/06 1:22:20 PM Reply	That could be a very back-handed compliment ie: "I have always wanted you less." Slightly OT: I'm picturing you (Andrew) in the same getup but with the helmet from your pic instead of the floppy hat. Makes me wonder: Were there German hippies? Were they into peace, love and efficiency? === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #245,941 by bionerd 2/23/06 1:25:37 PM Reply	I pictured the helmet, too. The floppy hat made me think "pimp". Follow your MOUSE
Post #245,976 by Andrew Grygus 2/23/06 6:07:18 PM Reply	It isn't floppy, actually a bit stiff . . . . . looks a bit Dutch like in old paintings, but no buckle. I remember another time I wore it. Many years ago I hung out with a bunch of musicians who were into early music (nothing as recent as Bach). They were about 1/3 gay, 1/3 lez (all the females), 1/3 straight and all a bit raucous. In those days my hair was cropped rather straight above the sholders and wearing my hat and simple peasant blouse I guess Dutch was the image. When I walked through the door, the leader, Bob (gay) boomed out, "Hey, here's Andrew now - and he looks like he's ready to stick his finger in dyke!" [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #246,002 by imqwerky 2/23/06 11:03:41 PM Reply	Gotta love a man with stiff brim :-) "It's never too late to be who you might have been." ~ George Eliot
Post #245,959 by jb4 2/23/06 4:56:05 PM Reply	$400/lb?!? I remember $185-$200 keys Damn, I'm getting old.... jb4 "Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'." &mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
Post #245,779 by jb4 2/22/06 3:17:21 PM 2/22/06 3:22:09 PM Reply	Re: Your age And if you're nearly 40, you not a mid-Gen-Xer as you purport to be at all, but rather more on the cusp. Gen-Xers are supposed to be those born after a boundary year that ranges from 1965 to 1968 (depending on who you ask...). [Edit: On first reading, it appeared as if jake123 was soliciting my age, to which I responded with a solicitation to "do the math". On a subsequent reading, it became clear that jake123 was responding to the remark I made about what I was doing "at your age". Hence the edit. (BTW, jake, if you were soliciting my age, I'm approaching 54...).] jb4 "Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'." &mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration Edited by jb4 Feb. 22, 2006, 03:22:09 PM EST Expand All History
Post #245,798 by jake123 2/22/06 4:40:54 PM Reply	I never said I was a mid gen-xer I said I was an early one if you check up the thread. I wasn't particularly asking you your age. Not really that relevant to the discussion imho. The discussion was about boomers and the cohort that followed them, and the differing results for those cohorts based on their relative proportion of the population. The fact remains that most people in my cohort (gen x) really don't like boomers very much, as they have tended to benefit from having the system tilted heavily in their favour over their entire lives whilst calling us whining and lazy. I've done many different things in my life, including cleaning stores, writing a 250 page book about a software package, graveyard shift dispatcher at a security company, building PCs, network administration, grunt sales work (phone and rep), and running a business of my own, and yet I've never made more than about 32K in any given year despite having been almost continuously employed from the age of ten till 35 (I'm excluding the last three years as I'm at school). Somehow, I'm whining and lazy despite all that. And that in a nutshell is why most people in my cohort don't like boomers as a class. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------

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