That's funny...

Belt and suspenders. After all pinheads got money too.

However, the shit you've read is just that, shit.

Tracked? Nobody is getting any reasonable tracking done with cookies. We have MUCH more sophisticated methods to do tracking and if you think we don't know exactly what you've done on the site everytime you've been there and had your data/behavior scrutinized extensively, then you don't know jack about successful retailing.

OTOH, the data is viewed in the aggregate. Nobody is saying "hey Mike did that". They're saying, 43% of people do this.

As for whether its valid - typing GET requests into telnet and viewing the returned data in the raw is a valid thing to do too, but its pointlessly paranoid.

Anyhow, if you're really determined to put a tinfoil hat on your browser, then you definitely have to turn of javascript and NEVER TURN IT ON.

Because that's the real security hole and, unlike cookies, its pretty easy to report stuff back to another domain.

While you're at it, turn off image loading, because that's a ping back with parameters as well and I can do very extensive tracking by putting little images in the page with unique urls.

MUCH easier to do than cookie tracking. Turning off cookies is like throwing salt over your shoulder - might not hurt (unless someone is standing behind you and you hit them in the eyes), but really isn't making you any more anonymous and cookie tracking is long passe.

FWIW, most people like that we know something about them and point them to stuff they probably want.

Darrell Spice, Jr. [link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore

Post #238,831 by Yendor 12/21/05 4:01:37 PM Reply	That's funny... All it says for me is "Loading..." And then it sits there and does nothing. -YendorMike "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
Post #238,832 by tjsinclair 12/21/05 4:09:36 PM Reply	Re: That's funny... Says "Safari support coming soon...." In Firefox, though, it works great. So this is DHTML on steroids? Tom Sinclair Zo\ufffd: Cap'n'll come up with a plan. Kaylee: Well, that's good. Right? Zo\ufffd: Possible you're not recalling some of his previous plans. - "Safe", Firefly
Post #238,834 by tuberculosis 12/21/05 4:15:47 PM Reply	Yep - DHTML/Ajax/JavaScript/Web2.0/<<coin buzzword here>> "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #238,838 by Yendor 12/21/05 4:39:59 PM Reply	Using Firefox on Linux (Ubuntu) here. I blocked the cookie that the site tried to set, however. I'm assuming that's the reason that the site doesn't work. Which is a horrible user experience provided by the website coders. I've come to expect that, however, in sites that automatically try to set cookies. The good ones fail gracefully, by notifying me that I need to turn on cookies to view their content. I might or might not do so, depending on how badly I want to actually view their content. The bad ones display, e.g., "Loading...". -YendorMike "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
Post #238,847 by pwhysall 12/21/05 5:06:00 PM Reply	Oh, I dunno. People who block cookies (for whatever reason) are in a tiny, tiny minority of web users. Coding support for cookie-blockers is like coding support for Lynx; noble, but on balance, pointless. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #238,853 by drewk 12/21/05 5:14:46 PM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #238852 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=238852\|ICLRPD] === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #238,862 by admin 12/21/05 5:38:55 PM Reply	Lynx support... Several people here use or have used Lynx to use the site. I've used it in Lynx several times myself. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #238,866 by pwhysall 12/21/05 5:46:49 PM Reply	It's still a tiny, tiny minority of webizens. If there were to be a trade-off in developer time between Other Stuff and Making It Go In Lynx, the Other Stuff should, in a rational world, win every single time. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #238,873 by Another Scott 12/21/05 5:59:22 PM Reply	I dunno. [link\|http://lynx.isc.org/lynx2.8.5/features.html\|Lynx runs on a boatload of systems]. It's very handy on constrained systems too. Code that's well written should run, with possibly reduced functionality, in [link\|http://www.anybrowser.org/campaign/index.html\|Any Browser]. Lynx functionality shouldn't have any significant additional cost. Cheers, Scott.
Post #238,879 by pwhysall 12/21/05 6:10:34 PM Reply	You're quite right, of course. But "works" and "works like you'd actually be able to use it for more than five seconds without scratching your eyes out in frustration" are two very different things. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #238,892 by tuberculosis 12/21/05 7:42:14 PM Reply	Funny thing - lynx support will actually get better as people get rid of the formatting and move it to CSS. There'll be much less presentation noise in the page. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #238,890 by tuberculosis 12/21/05 7:39:37 PM Reply	YTF do you block cookies? Because, like, its bloody hard to do anything evil with cookies and the entire fucking use case for cookies is to allow the server to store some PRIVATE state that only the server itself can get back. If you're really freaked about privacy, turn off JS because with that we can do some serious snoopage. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #238,899 by Yendor 12/21/05 8:16:40 PM Reply	Re: YTF do you block cookies? I don't like being tracked. Read too many stories about cookies for one site being able to be read by another. I know what the spec says. I don't particularly care. Besides, turning off cookies in my browser is a valid thing to do. Nothing about the HTTP spec says that I must accept cookies. My browser provides an easy interface allowing me to disallow them. Web developers should take that into account and gracefully display something other than "Loading..." when they're not allowed to set a cookie. Also besides, it's my fucking hard disk. I choose what goes on there and what doesn't. Also also besides, does your employer's site work without cookies? I'd be willing to wager that, should I choose to block cookies from there, I would at least be able to look up items, read reviews, find prices, and all that jazz. Place an order? Perhaps not. Look at shit? Definitely. On the off chance that the answer to that last question is "no", then I'll have to reconsider my continued use of said site. Just as I don't go to Best Buy anymore because their site doesn't work sans cookies. There's a Circuit City that's actually closer to me. Their site works (at least for looking at things) without cookies. -YendorMike "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
Post #238,951 by tuberculosis 12/22/05 11:03:10 AM Reply	Yes we use both Belt and suspenders. After all pinheads got money too. However, the shit you've read is just that, shit. Tracked? Nobody is getting any reasonable tracking done with cookies. We have MUCH more sophisticated methods to do tracking and if you think we don't know exactly what you've done on the site everytime you've been there and had your data/behavior scrutinized extensively, then you don't know jack about successful retailing. OTOH, the data is viewed in the aggregate. Nobody is saying "hey Mike did that". They're saying, 43% of people do this. As for whether its valid - typing GET requests into telnet and viewing the returned data in the raw is a valid thing to do too, but its pointlessly paranoid. Anyhow, if you're really determined to put a tinfoil hat on your browser, then you definitely have to turn of javascript and NEVER TURN IT ON. Because that's the real security hole and, unlike cookies, its pretty easy to report stuff back to another domain. While you're at it, turn off image loading, because that's a ping back with parameters as well and I can do very extensive tracking by putting little images in the page with unique urls. MUCH easier to do than cookie tracking. Turning off cookies is like throwing salt over your shoulder - might not hurt (unless someone is standing behind you and you hit them in the eyes), but really isn't making you any more anonymous and cookie tracking is long passe. FWIW, most people like that we know something about them and point them to stuff they probably want. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #238,906 by Ashton 12/21/05 10:16:40 PM Reply	What I do is, Periodically ... simply (on Moz) Tools > Cookie Manager. Hey, even Shrub could manage that. There are only a few sites for which I Want to retain long-term cookie presence (for My evident convenience; not theirs. And I know where they Live.) The rest can be nuked in seconds, and by now I Know the Names.. of the ugliest, even. (And if I skip a data-collector - next Spybot run will smugly remind me.) Seems a modest price, given the overall madness; going on 4.5 years sans RRR, so I ain't been cookie-bit yet. And yeah, don't we all remember the 3.x , early 4.x days when you Did turn off jscript, and initially - cookies too. But today, who wants to surf with a lead surfboard? Cute, your example - moused over weather / it said Edit? / plugged in Santa Rosa CA et viola! Got SR and not NYC. Now THAT's interfacing for the Masses. Not sure I wanna register, but will peruse a bit more, anon. Bitchin demo though...
Post #239,087 by static 12/22/05 11:11:29 PM Reply	I'm choosy about cookies. But not for site-specific stuff: no, I object to advertisers cross-pollinating from their various clients. Plus I've done some tracking programming recently and can recognize at least two sets of commercial tracking cookies. So I have the notifiers on partly out of curiosity. :-) Wade. "Insert crowbar. Apply force."
Post #239,212 by tuberculosis 12/23/05 12:44:12 PM Reply	Me too - Pepperidge Farm all the way baby "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #239,226 by SpiceWare 12/23/05 2:03:08 PM Reply	Mini Mint Milano - yum Darrell Spice, Jr. [link\|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass\|Artistic Overpass]\n[link\|http://www.spiceware.org/\|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
Post #239,351 by tuberculosis 12/24/05 11:00:44 PM Reply	I'm more of a Sausalito fan love the chocolate chunks. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #239,354 by broomberg 12/24/05 11:25:32 PM Reply	Milk chocolate and macadamia!
Post #239,476 by tuberculosis 12/26/05 10:55:53 PM Reply	Milk chocolate is an abomination Dark all the way for me. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #239,487 by pwhysall 12/27/05 3:12:32 AM Reply	If it's not 70% cocoa solids, it's not really chocolate Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,491 by ben_tilly 12/27/05 3:46:05 AM Reply	Agreed but I don't care. I don't like chocolate that much. I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #239,492 by pwhysall 12/27/05 3:53:38 AM Reply	I don't care that you don't care. Heretic. "Don't like chocolate that much", indeed. I bet that's what The Terrorists say, too. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,495 by ben_tilly 12/27/05 3:56:51 AM Reply	I also prefer vanilla ice cream. :-P I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #239,496 by pwhysall 12/27/05 3:58:12 AM Reply	But that's The One True Flavour! There's an outside chance that you might not be one of The Terrorists, yet. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,497 by ben_tilly 12/27/05 3:58:51 AM Reply	Sorry, I'm Canadian. I'm doomed. I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #239,502 by drewk 12/27/05 9:02:51 AM Reply	I blame Canada === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #239,513 by boxley 12/27/05 11:01:46 AM Reply	its probably french vanilla Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #239,515 by Another Scott 12/27/05 11:12:11 AM Reply	:-)
Post #239,536 by tuberculosis 12/27/05 2:40:25 PM Reply	Psycho If its not chocolate, its not dessert "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #239,537 by Another Scott 12/27/05 2:41:36 PM Reply	B&J's Chunky Monkey is wonderful, even without the chocolate
Post #239,478 by boxley 12/26/05 11:17:07 PM Reply	heavil;y addicted to those pay $1 a pop at work Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #239,370 by imqwerky 12/25/05 1:39:12 AM Reply	Truly, you are a man of good taste. I was gonna be a smart aleck and say something about cookies, but I thought yall would just groan. Harumph! Amy "It's never too late to be who you might have been." ~ George Eliot

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