Post #237,172
12/6/05 12:02:26 PM
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Can ID be experimentally disproven?
No.
Can it be experimentally proven?
No.
Can it be used to predict results?
No.
Is it a science?
No.
Even the 'soft sciences' move toward provability - and their 'correctness' can be evaluated by the results they get or predict; even though those results might be 'only' statistical in nature.
This cannot be said of ID. ID is based on a number of philosophical assumptions (for example, that some things are too complex to evolve by chance - a fundamentally unprovable assumption). ID is NOT a science, scientific principle, scientific theory or scientific hypothesis. It is a philosophy posing as science for the sole purpose of furthering a theocratic agenda, nothing more. It offends me. It also amuses me; ID is being proposed by those that feel their religion is threatened by science. What skimpy faith; what lack of vision! But then, these are fundamentalists - their true faith is not in God, but the the words that man has written regarding God, in the understanding of their elders. Learning new things and encompassing new understanding is anathema to them.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #237,173
12/6/05 12:05:20 PM
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disagree
it can be predictive if you figure out the design first. ID is being done by humans in genetics labs all the time. Now extrapolate that to a "here is an ardvark with 2 gene twists and a shot of glue I have a platypus" which would be a unified theory of ID. Wont be anytime soon.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #237,177
12/6/05 12:15:29 PM
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Don't think so.
"it can be predictive if you figure out the design first. ID is being done by humans in genetics labs all the time. Now extrapolate that to a "here is an ardvark with 2 gene twists and a shot of glue I have a platypus" which would be a unified theory of ID. Wont be anytime soon." Finding patterns (even usable patterns) in natural phenomena does not mean, nor even imply that the phenomena was 'designed'.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #237,180
12/6/05 12:48:17 PM
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if you can predict results from the patterns then
extrapolate backwards it would push the design theory quite nicely.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #237,182
12/6/05 12:57:23 PM
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Nope. That's just genetics. ID is not genetics.
It's not even dependent on genetics. It's an expression of faith that anything that an ID proponent feels is impossible to have evolved naturally must be designed instead.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #237,210
12/6/05 3:54:07 PM
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Q for ID-ers: How I is the D of, say, flightless birds?
Two out of three people wonder where the other one is.
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Post #237,213
12/6/05 4:13:35 PM
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I always use hemroids.
Easily explainable by evolution but not real intelligent design.
Mechanical Engineer - "God is obviously a Mechanical Engineer of great talent. Just look how the various limbs and joints fit together and function!"
Electrical Engineer - "No, God is obviously an Electrical Engineer. Look at the wonderful wiring of the nervous system and brain. Mechanical engineers could never do that."
Civil Engineer - "You're both wrong, God is obviously a Civil Engineer".
ME and EE - "Huh? How so?"
CE - "Who else but a Civil Engineer would run a waste disposal pipeline right through the middle of a great recreational area?"
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #237,225
12/6/05 5:51:33 PM
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gotta have something easy to catch and consume
where didja think dino came from anyway?
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #237,242
12/6/05 8:46:36 PM
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Intelligent Design is a dead give away...
Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see this as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes like this : "I refuse to prove that I exist", says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But", says Man, "[Intelligent Design] is a dead giveaway isn't it? it could not have evolved by chance. it proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
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Post #237,247
12/6/05 10:23:29 PM
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Don't forget the other moral of the example you are quoting
Communicating better would just make us hate each other more.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #237,308
12/7/05 7:44:29 PM
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Or even -
The true delight is in the finding out, rather than in the knowing.
-- Issac Asimov
..but with a modrin overlay,
Capitalism has destroyed our belief in any effective power but that of self interest backed by force.
-- George Bernard Shaw
or maybe simply,
Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
-- TS Eliot
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
Power does not corrupt men; fools, however, if they get into a position of power, corrupt power.
The art of government is the organisation of idolatry.
Gotta Love GBS; once there were wise people about - then we outsourced them all - for amusing transistors.
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Post #237,596
12/10/05 11:07:56 PM
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HD - Halfwit Design
I would note that some religions beleive that this life is a test for humans, and to make it a test it is purposely messy and sloppy. (My version of ID does not require supernatural, BTW.)
________________
oop.ismad.com
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Post #237,601
12/11/05 2:08:17 AM
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ID is supernatural by definition
ID implies a designer.
A designer is a creator.
Well, ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long, you've just found God.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #237,603
12/11/05 2:10:43 AM
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That's just a fortunate side effect.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #237,611
12/11/05 8:11:12 AM
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Not it's not.
Anybody who comes out with "ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long" is not bringing good fortune to anyone around them.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #237,623
12/11/05 10:39:16 AM
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I see I need to expand my Ministry.
After all, if you believe in ID, then it's entirely feasible that Jesus built your hotrod.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #237,624
12/11/05 10:40:35 AM
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I beleive he did, parts stamped made in mexico
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #237,626
12/11/05 10:44:34 AM
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That would be where every third guy is named Jesus?
I know, different pronunciation
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Post #237,627
12/11/05 10:59:30 AM
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Philistine.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
|
Post #237,764
12/12/05 1:37:23 PM
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Damn! You mean Janis Joplin was RIGHT?!?
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #237,614
12/11/05 9:48:38 AM
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Creator need not be supernatural. May be ultra-tech aliens.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #237,615
12/11/05 9:51:18 AM
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And they were 'designed' to produce us, of course...
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #237,633
12/11/05 1:56:48 PM
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ID makes no assertian of the designer, designed or not.
Although the ID advocates have a blatant, religious agenda, ID itself was written to have no religious aspect at all. This is an attempt to circumvent the ban on teaching religion in public schools. ID is not supernatural by definition. Claiming the ultra-tech alien designers evolved by natural selection would not contradict ID itself.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #237,634
12/11/05 2:08:28 PM
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Except it's basic tenet . . .
. . that something as complex and organized as an ultra-tech alien capable of creating us could come about without a creator. How many levels do you want to push this back to delay uncovering the final absurdity?
My own opinion is just the opposite of ID, that life on Earth is far too complex and intertwined to have been designed - it could only have evolved.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #237,655
12/11/05 5:26:30 PM
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That's an extrapolation of ID itself, not a basic tenet.
Although the ID advocates believe the designer is their god, ID does not describe he/she/it/them beyond being intelligent. ID is supernatural by implication, not definition.
And I agree, the richness and interdependency of life on Earth makes it implausible that it was designed.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #237,766
12/12/05 1:41:33 PM
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Here's you task for today, grasshopper:
Go find your friendly, neighborhood, neocon fundie whackjob ID proponent, and get him/her to agree, without reservation, to your previous post. We await your report....
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #237,809
12/12/05 6:18:23 PM
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You forgot: bring a bodyguard -
Some of these folks get Violent when you come near their fav topic, the Prince of Peace.
<Spock on> It is not logical. But it is often true.</Spock>
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Post #237,811
12/12/05 6:27:24 PM
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What does the Prince of Peace have to do with ID?
Oh...that's right...
Mever mind....!
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #237,814
12/12/05 6:32:10 PM
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Nothing at all - we're talking GOD here . . .
. . the "Vengeful Smiter" who is "God the creator". That kid didn't create noth'n 'cept trouble.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #237,819
12/12/05 8:17:17 PM
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Heard a lengthy discussion re Yahweh -
as bein pretty much what you said -- not 'God\ufffd' but a kind of pixie, droppin in for inspections. It seems that in the Judaeo early versions, all intermixed with Greek and other: there are at least three other entities vying for the CIEIO title. (The speaker was pissed, saying that #1 has been AWOL; the Covenant wasn't being honored by the *#1, so ... what matters 'faith' that it will/would be? etc.)
* Specifically (he sez), #1 declared, via I Am That I Am - that "S/He would show up if and when S/He Chooses" ==> ergo, that includes never.
cha cha and cha
I do love these monographs re internecine squabbles about Whom you should kill today, for dissin *your* fav Peace Loving construct - today, or thousands of yesterdays ago. Then.. when I'm off-the-wall, I can say: well, at least there are some in need of even more therapeutic endorphins than moi.
- so maybe it's OK for me to invite a zealot for lunch. There's even a forum with recipes. Roti? saut\ufffd appears popular with the Faithful: for others. But I'm pretty clumsy in the kitchen.
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Post #237,827
12/12/05 8:52:42 PM
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look it doesnt apply to you gentiles, its a realestate
transaction, in exchange for some specific dirt, judeah only, in exhange for observing some laws and not praising other agents in the vicinity the tenants get to camp there forever. If the laws are broken or ignored, tenant pretends there is no landlord he kicks them out until he deems them sufficiently remorseful then gives it back. Thats the covenant. Nothing else. Now all you gentiles have your own problems including believing that the covnent extended to someone else is provided with no fees just a weekly mea culpa and you expect to own the whole damn thing. Sorry it doesnt work that way. Same with the other bone headed followers of a long haul camel jockey. Go get your own god.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #237,831
12/12/05 8:57:01 PM
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DPRLCI (new thread)
Created as new thread #237830 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=237830|DPRLCI]
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Post #237,616
12/11/05 10:05:27 AM
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Nothing wrong with a creator
As long as it's a black box for damnifiknow
It's only when somebody KNOWS what the black box wants everybody to do that it becomes a problem.
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Post #237,192
12/6/05 2:27:07 PM
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Post of the Week (and it's only Tuesday...)!
But then, these are fundamentalists - their true faith is not in God, but the the words that man has written regarding God, in the understanding of their elders. Hello Rex? Pat? Jerry? Berk-boy? Are you listening? jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #237,593
12/10/05 11:03:20 PM
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Falsifiable, Trueifiable
Can ID be experimentally disproven? No.
Either can evolution. Proving it didn't happen for one instance does not mean it never happened.
Can it be experimentally proven? No.
What about my "DNA pattern lab" example. That is something that could possibly boost it.
Can it be used to predict results? No.
What about the DNA pattern lab? True, finding a pattern would be a bonus rather than necessary, but it shares this trait with anthropic MU, which some consider or treat like science. We may never be able to observe or sample other universes. They may have come before ours, for example. Being able to observe other universes is simply a bonus if it happens.
________________
oop.ismad.com
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Post #237,598
12/11/05 1:47:07 AM
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Patterns... Pattern institute?
An institute that finds patterns in DNA does NOT imply design. A 'seti' type institute investigating ID would only make the investigation of ID scientific; it would not make ID a scientific theory at all. One can make a scientific study of anything at all from fairies to astrology; that does not make fairies, astrology or anything between 'scientifc'.
ID just isn't science.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #237,618
12/11/05 10:23:01 AM
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fairies exist, saw one once
in the blue moon bar.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #237,619
12/11/05 10:23:59 AM
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heh, knew where that was going
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #237,620
12/11/05 10:31:25 AM
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So the teacher asks the kid
Do you have a fairy godmother?
Kid says, No but I have an uncle that we're kind of suspicious of..
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Post #237,644
12/11/05 4:22:52 PM
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They wear boots - ya gotta believe...
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #237,646
12/11/05 4:52:11 PM
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I saw it I saw it with my own two eyes
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #237,650
12/11/05 5:02:00 PM
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Well all right now!
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #237,647
12/11/05 4:56:43 PM
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And around here they ride Harleys.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #237,767
12/12/05 1:43:15 PM
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Me too...I watch Bravo....
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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