Post #236,966
12/3/05 11:19:25 PM
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If you think being anti-OOP is controversial....
Tablizer on Intelligent Design - [link|http://www.geocities.com/tablizer/intel.htm|http://www.geocities...ablizer/intel.htm]
________________ oop.ismad.com
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Post #236,967
12/3/05 11:34:40 PM
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well that pretty much sinks ID :-)
point = missed, ID is a valid philosophical viewpoint at this time, as such it would be considered a "soft" science. There is a reason they dont teach psychology, anthropology, astrology and necromancy in k-12 it takes an educated person to grasp the concepts. Evolution as defined by scientifically measured studies such as fruit flies and other well known aspects should be taught in school science/biology classes. Studying the similarities of primates as well as studies of dead evolutionary primate trees should be studied as well in a more philosophical bent. ID should be available to be taught in the universities as a philosophy class. Even if ID was proved beyond all reasoable doubt that evelution was designed, it doesnt advance science an iota. thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #236,978
12/4/05 5:05:19 AM
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No, it is not a "soft" science
It is not any kind of science. Unless you mean in the sense that Christian Science is a "science". Which is to say that it isn't a science, but some people call it one anyways.
Regards, Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #236,994
12/4/05 10:06:58 AM
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it is a philosophy, noted soft science much like psychology
anthropology. Your dislike of religion colors your argument. Unless of course you feel the above examples are not science either, I could go along with that.
thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #236,996
12/4/05 10:27:23 AM
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how about theology.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #236,997
12/4/05 10:28:26 AM
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subscience of philosophy
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #236,999
12/4/05 10:40:23 AM
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No, it isn't.
You're trying to wish it into being science, and it just plain isn't.
Peter [link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #237,004
12/4/05 10:56:23 AM
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Is sociology a science?
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #237,005
12/4/05 11:00:23 AM
12/4/05 11:01:31 AM
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In places, yes.
However, whether sociology is a science or not has no bearing on whether thinking about whether the FSM invented us all or not is a science.
Peter [link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Edited by pwhysall
Dec. 4, 2005, 11:01:31 AM EST
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Post #237,010
12/4/05 1:31:50 PM
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In part it is the same methodology
Looking at the combined behaviors of things and inferring a larger pattern of behavior or an overriding tendency.
Of course...that doesn't excuse those that are hijacking this as an avenue to force religion into school in a place it may/may not belong.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #237,011
12/4/05 1:33:57 PM
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point out differences between the examples
and explain why one is a science and the other is not. Your comments are just prejuidice much alike your worship of the recycling gods. thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #237,012
12/4/05 1:58:25 PM
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ID starts with a creator.
And the others start with people.
People demonstrably and scientifically test-ably exist, unless you've got a long and lurid history of hallucinogenic substances.
And no, "If there were no creator, we wouldn't be here, and we are here, ergo there's a creator" isn't a hypothesis.
Also, I never said the others were science. You're the one saying that if sociology is a science, then ID must also be.
Peter [link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #237,041
12/4/05 7:44:12 PM
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Not really
It starts with an observation of reality and assumes that reality to be too ordered to be random.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #237,063
12/5/05 1:26:12 AM
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And how is that not creationism?
If it didn't happen by chance, there's a creator.
Peter [link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #237,068
12/5/05 9:22:03 AM
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No. Well, sorta.
Liquid water is more random than ice. But there are still patterns to it: currents, tides, etc. And sometimes you get whirlpools. These are -- to modern science -- fairly predictable. A thousand years ago (or 10 thousand, pick whatever number makes you happy) the working of the tides seemed too ordered to not have a cause, but they couldn't discern a cause, so it must be a god doing it.
And that's the real problem with ID. To an ID proponent, anything that "seems too ordered, it didn't happen by chance," is taken as evidence of a design; and by extension, a designer. To a scientist, anything that "seems too ordered, it didn't happen by chance," is taken as a good thesis topic.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #237,287
12/7/05 3:33:23 PM
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How is a designer not a creator?
Peter [link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #237,289
12/7/05 3:52:40 PM
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If the universe designed itself in a fit of recursion
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Post #237,306
12/7/05 7:13:54 PM
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That's what ID people say, and why I didn't say it
When stating their position, I said design. When I was not stating their position, I said pattern.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #237,373
12/8/05 5:11:29 PM
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Re: No. Well, sorta.
Hey, Since we're having a wacko pseudo-intellectual Descartes-less rationalist "debate" on water, how does wind work to create the tides? How does thermo dynamics create wind? How does that work without the sun. Where did the sun come from? etc...
;-)
We (as a species) still don't know shit about apriori stuff we can't observe.
Just an observation.
;-)
Just a few thoughts,
Danno
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Post #237,104
12/5/05 3:52:31 PM
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Minor difference
Creationism is a "top down" approach. God created the earth and heavens in 7 days.
ID is supposed to be a "bottom up" approach by saying x,y and z are highly complex, yet fairly ordered, there is no rational explanation for that order, so there must be something guiding (a creator).
Different directions to try and explain the same thing.
In the end, they get to the same place. There is a God. At least, according to them.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #237,108
12/5/05 4:44:56 PM
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Same difference
1+1=2, 2=1+1
----------------------------------------- No new taxes. --George H. W. Bush
We don't torture. --George W. Bush
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Post #237,123
12/5/05 9:02:50 PM
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No again
1+1=2
2=X+X. solve for X where X is an integer :-)
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #237,133
12/5/05 10:08:02 PM
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No again
2 = X + Y
Scientists are supposed to be in the business of understanding Y and categorizing the stuff that fits into there.
Intelligent Design folks are into pre-emptively declaring X to be 1.
Cheers, Ben
PS There is significance to the variable names I chose. :-)
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #237,135
12/5/05 11:13:40 PM
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Sturgeon?
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #237,136
12/5/05 11:36:47 PM
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(Could be fun - with chromosomes.)
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Post #237,290
12/7/05 3:57:54 PM
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If there is significance to the variable names, then
X + Y = 3 (or more)
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
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Post #237,293
12/7/05 4:19:28 PM
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It's fun seeing people guess but...
my thinking was straightforward.
Y = "Why"
X = "Unknown" *
Cheers, Ben
* One could also say that X stands for "wrong", but that is just biased.
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #237,055
12/4/05 9:39:09 PM
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I feel that the other examples are not sciences either
But at least they try to study the subject without begging the answer that they want to come to.
The Intelligent Design folks don't.
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #237,088
12/5/05 1:22:41 PM
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Agreed, social science might be a better descriptive
I really dont think at this point there is any real ID experiments or deep thinking either. I would find it interesting to see a design, and model predictive outcomes that could be tracked for future results. I dont think that is happening either. thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #237,129
12/5/05 10:03:44 PM
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You are right that those are missing...
and the lack of the same is one of the reasons why I am so strongly opposed to calling ID a science.
Compare to one of the social sciences like psychology. I am hesitant to consider that a real science because of their inability to generate data that is compelling enough to create a compelling empirically-driven consensus view (aka a paradigm). But psychologists have theories, run experiments, and analyze them. Granted, the test subjects are usually college students and the analysis typically leaves a lot to be desired, but at least they try to act as scientists are supposed to.
The ID folks don't. If in the classroom you call ID a science, then how do you describe the scientific method to that class and keep a straight face?
Cheers, Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #237,149
12/6/05 9:38:58 AM
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Not interested enough to read the literature :-)
although there a rumors of those who are deeply looking at thing from that perspective. thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #237,163
12/6/05 11:34:33 AM
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Thats the issue
The literature describes it as such..in line with psych and sociology...which are deemed sciences (though there is some dispute here apparently).
The practice of those making the press are completely opposite (granted)..so both sides here have validity to their claims.
Thats what makes these threads so much fun :-)
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #237,172
12/6/05 12:02:26 PM
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Can ID be experimentally disproven?
No.
Can it be experimentally proven?
No.
Can it be used to predict results?
No.
Is it a science?
No.
Even the 'soft sciences' move toward provability - and their 'correctness' can be evaluated by the results they get or predict; even though those results might be 'only' statistical in nature.
This cannot be said of ID. ID is based on a number of philosophical assumptions (for example, that some things are too complex to evolve by chance - a fundamentally unprovable assumption). ID is NOT a science, scientific principle, scientific theory or scientific hypothesis. It is a philosophy posing as science for the sole purpose of furthering a theocratic agenda, nothing more. It offends me. It also amuses me; ID is being proposed by those that feel their religion is threatened by science. What skimpy faith; what lack of vision! But then, these are fundamentalists - their true faith is not in God, but the the words that man has written regarding God, in the understanding of their elders. Learning new things and encompassing new understanding is anathema to them.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning, As hopeless as it seems in the middle, Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #237,173
12/6/05 12:05:20 PM
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disagree
it can be predictive if you figure out the design first. ID is being done by humans in genetics labs all the time. Now extrapolate that to a "here is an ardvark with 2 gene twists and a shot of glue I have a platypus" which would be a unified theory of ID. Wont be anytime soon. thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #237,177
12/6/05 12:15:29 PM
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Don't think so.
"it can be predictive if you figure out the design first. ID is being done by humans in genetics labs all the time. Now extrapolate that to a "here is an ardvark with 2 gene twists and a shot of glue I have a platypus" which would be a unified theory of ID. Wont be anytime soon." Finding patterns (even usable patterns) in natural phenomena does not mean, nor even imply that the phenomena was 'designed'.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning, As hopeless as it seems in the middle, Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #237,180
12/6/05 12:48:17 PM
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if you can predict results from the patterns then
extrapolate backwards it would push the design theory quite nicely. thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #237,182
12/6/05 12:57:23 PM
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Nope. That's just genetics. ID is not genetics.
It's not even dependent on genetics. It's an expression of faith that anything that an ID proponent feels is impossible to have evolved naturally must be designed instead.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning, As hopeless as it seems in the middle, Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #237,210
12/6/05 3:54:07 PM
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Q for ID-ers: How I is the D of, say, flightless birds?
Two out of three people wonder where the other one is.
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Post #237,213
12/6/05 4:13:35 PM
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I always use hemroids.
Easily explainable by evolution but not real intelligent design.
Mechanical Engineer - "God is obviously a Mechanical Engineer of great talent. Just look how the various limbs and joints fit together and function!" Electrical Engineer - "No, God is obviously an Electrical Engineer. Look at the wonderful wiring of the nervous system and brain. Mechanical engineers could never do that." Civil Engineer - "You're both wrong, God is obviously a Civil Engineer". ME and EE - "Huh? How so?" CE - "Who else but a Civil Engineer would run a waste disposal pipeline right through the middle of a great recreational area?"
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #237,225
12/6/05 5:51:33 PM
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gotta have something easy to catch and consume
where didja think dino came from anyway? thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #237,242
12/6/05 8:46:36 PM
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Intelligent Design is a dead give away...
Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see this as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes like this : "I refuse to prove that I exist", says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But", says Man, "[Intelligent Design] is a dead giveaway isn't it? it could not have evolved by chance. it proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
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Post #237,247
12/6/05 10:23:29 PM
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Don't forget the other moral of the example you are quoting
Communicating better would just make us hate each other more.
Cheers, Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #237,308
12/7/05 7:44:29 PM
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Or even -
The true delight is in the finding out, rather than in the knowing. -- Issac Asimov
..but with a modrin overlay,
Capitalism has destroyed our belief in any effective power but that of self interest backed by force. -- George Bernard Shaw
or maybe simply,
Humankind cannot bear very much reality. -- TS Eliot
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
Power does not corrupt men; fools, however, if they get into a position of power, corrupt power.
The art of government is the organisation of idolatry.
Gotta Love GBS; once there were wise people about - then we outsourced them all - for amusing transistors.
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Post #237,596
12/10/05 11:07:56 PM
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HD - Halfwit Design
I would note that some religions beleive that this life is a test for humans, and to make it a test it is purposely messy and sloppy. (My version of ID does not require supernatural, BTW.)
________________ oop.ismad.com
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Post #237,601
12/11/05 2:08:17 AM
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ID is supernatural by definition
ID implies a designer.
A designer is a creator.
Well, ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long, you've just found God.
Peter [link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #237,603
12/11/05 2:10:43 AM
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That's just a fortunate side effect.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #237,611
12/11/05 8:11:12 AM
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Not it's not.
Anybody who comes out with "ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long" is not bringing good fortune to anyone around them.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #237,623
12/11/05 10:39:16 AM
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I see I need to expand my Ministry.
After all, if you believe in ID, then it's entirely feasible that Jesus built your hotrod.
Peter [link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #237,624
12/11/05 10:40:35 AM
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I beleive he did, parts stamped made in mexico
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #237,626
12/11/05 10:44:34 AM
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That would be where every third guy is named Jesus?
I know, different pronunciation
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Post #237,627
12/11/05 10:59:30 AM
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Philistine.
Peter [link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #237,764
12/12/05 1:37:23 PM
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Damn! You mean Janis Joplin was RIGHT?!?
jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #237,614
12/11/05 9:48:38 AM
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Creator need not be supernatural. May be ultra-tech aliens.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #237,615
12/11/05 9:51:18 AM
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And they were 'designed' to produce us, of course...
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning, As hopeless as it seems in the middle, Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #237,633
12/11/05 1:56:48 PM
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ID makes no assertian of the designer, designed or not.
Although the ID advocates have a blatant, religious agenda, ID itself was written to have no religious aspect at all. This is an attempt to circumvent the ban on teaching religion in public schools. ID is not supernatural by definition. Claiming the ultra-tech alien designers evolved by natural selection would not contradict ID itself.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #237,634
12/11/05 2:08:28 PM
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Except it's basic tenet . . .
. . that something as complex and organized as an ultra-tech alien capable of creating us could come about without a creator. How many levels do you want to push this back to delay uncovering the final absurdity?
My own opinion is just the opposite of ID, that life on Earth is far too complex and intertwined to have been designed - it could only have evolved.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #237,655
12/11/05 5:26:30 PM
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That's an extrapolation of ID itself, not a basic tenet.
Although the ID advocates believe the designer is their god, ID does not describe he/she/it/them beyond being intelligent. ID is supernatural by implication, not definition.
And I agree, the richness and interdependency of life on Earth makes it implausible that it was designed.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #237,766
12/12/05 1:41:33 PM
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Here's you task for today, grasshopper:
Go find your friendly, neighborhood, neocon fundie whackjob ID proponent, and get him/her to agree, without reservation, to your previous post. We await your report....
jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #237,809
12/12/05 6:18:23 PM
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You forgot: bring a bodyguard -
Some of these folks get Violent when you come near their fav topic, the Prince of Peace.
<Spock on> It is not logical. But it is often true.</Spock>
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Post #237,811
12/12/05 6:27:24 PM
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What does the Prince of Peace have to do with ID?
Oh...that's right...
Mever mind....!
jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #237,814
12/12/05 6:32:10 PM
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Nothing at all - we're talking GOD here . . .
. . the "Vengeful Smiter" who is "God the creator". That kid didn't create noth'n 'cept trouble.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #237,819
12/12/05 8:17:17 PM
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Heard a lengthy discussion re Yahweh -
as bein pretty much what you said -- not 'God\ufffd' but a kind of pixie, droppin in for inspections. It seems that in the Judaeo early versions, all intermixed with Greek and other: there are at least three other entities vying for the CIEIO title. (The speaker was pissed, saying that #1 has been AWOL; the Covenant wasn't being honored by the *#1, so ... what matters 'faith' that it will/would be? etc.)
* Specifically (he sez), #1 declared, via I Am That I Am - that "S/He would show up if and when S/He Chooses" ==> ergo, that includes never.
cha cha and cha
I do love these monographs re internecine squabbles about Whom you should kill today, for dissin *your* fav Peace Loving construct - today, or thousands of yesterdays ago. Then.. when I'm off-the-wall, I can say: well, at least there are some in need of even more therapeutic endorphins than moi.
- so maybe it's OK for me to invite a zealot for lunch. There's even a forum with recipes. Roti? saut\ufffd appears popular with the Faithful: for others. But I'm pretty clumsy in the kitchen.
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Post #237,827
12/12/05 8:52:42 PM
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look it doesnt apply to you gentiles, its a realestate
transaction, in exchange for some specific dirt, judeah only, in exhange for observing some laws and not praising other agents in the vicinity the tenants get to camp there forever. If the laws are broken or ignored, tenant pretends there is no landlord he kicks them out until he deems them sufficiently remorseful then gives it back. Thats the covenant. Nothing else. Now all you gentiles have your own problems including believing that the covnent extended to someone else is provided with no fees just a weekly mea culpa and you expect to own the whole damn thing. Sorry it doesnt work that way. Same with the other bone headed followers of a long haul camel jockey. Go get your own god. thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #237,831
12/12/05 8:57:01 PM
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DPRLCI (new thread)
Created as new thread #237830 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=237830|DPRLCI]
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Post #237,616
12/11/05 10:05:27 AM
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Nothing wrong with a creator
As long as it's a black box for damnifiknow It's only when somebody KNOWS what the black box wants everybody to do that it becomes a problem.
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Post #237,192
12/6/05 2:27:07 PM
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Post of the Week (and it's only Tuesday...)!
But then, these are fundamentalists - their true faith is not in God, but the the words that man has written regarding God, in the understanding of their elders. Hello Rex? Pat? Jerry? Berk-boy? Are you listening?
jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #237,593
12/10/05 11:03:20 PM
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Falsifiable, Trueifiable
Can ID be experimentally disproven? No.
Either can evolution. Proving it didn't happen for one instance does not mean it never happened.
Can it be experimentally proven? No.
What about my "DNA pattern lab" example. That is something that could possibly boost it.
Can it be used to predict results? No.
What about the DNA pattern lab? True, finding a pattern would be a bonus rather than necessary, but it shares this trait with anthropic MU, which some consider or treat like science. We may never be able to observe or sample other universes. They may have come before ours, for example. Being able to observe other universes is simply a bonus if it happens.
________________ oop.ismad.com
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Post #237,598
12/11/05 1:47:07 AM
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Patterns... Pattern institute?
An institute that finds patterns in DNA does NOT imply design. A 'seti' type institute investigating ID would only make the investigation of ID scientific; it would not make ID a scientific theory at all. One can make a scientific study of anything at all from fairies to astrology; that does not make fairies, astrology or anything between 'scientifc'.
ID just isn't science.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning, As hopeless as it seems in the middle, Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #237,618
12/11/05 10:23:01 AM
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fairies exist, saw one once
in the blue moon bar. thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #237,619
12/11/05 10:23:59 AM
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heh, knew where that was going
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #237,620
12/11/05 10:31:25 AM
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So the teacher asks the kid
Do you have a fairy godmother? Kid says, No but I have an uncle that we're kind of suspicious of..
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Post #237,644
12/11/05 4:22:52 PM
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They wear boots - ya gotta believe...
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning, As hopeless as it seems in the middle, Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #237,646
12/11/05 4:52:11 PM
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I saw it I saw it with my own two eyes
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #237,650
12/11/05 5:02:00 PM
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Well all right now!
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning, As hopeless as it seems in the middle, Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #237,647
12/11/05 4:56:43 PM
|
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And around here they ride Harleys.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #237,767
12/12/05 1:43:15 PM
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Me too...I watch Bravo....
jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #237,072
12/5/05 10:03:50 AM
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What's in a name?
If it were a Science, it would not be named Intelligent Design.
Design implies a master plan and Intelligent implies consciousness.
Instead, a more fitting name would be the study of Non-Stochastic Models of Evolution.
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Post #236,983
12/4/05 5:52:22 AM
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Google 'ontological proof of god' for some pithy links
re Descartes, Plato and G\ufffddel on why logic doesn't work very well er, outside the BOX one happens to be living in.
And if you can't test a hypothesis, you can't do-science. Period. (Not even softly) Think.. Super-String theory too, along that line; it'll take umm prayer to make anything useful of that.
Haven't we been through all this stuff about eleventy times?
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Post #236,995
12/4/05 10:08:16 AM
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see my answer to Ben,
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #237,038
12/4/05 7:12:30 PM
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Unsatisfying, just word/def'n pandering.
Look, this is rilly OLD stuff; the first sentient homo-saps looked around Just Like Everybody Does\ufffd.
I submit that - a one lacking any sense of there being possible er, 'metaphysical thought' -?- is simply not going to grapple with the Problem of Being in a Box - and attempting to extrapolate Box-experience into some cozy, personal 'relationship' with the Origin of Boxes. And going on to assign homo-sap Characteristics! to the Origin of Boxes ...
is how we got unceasing Wars. Dying for imagined 'Truths'. Every day.
Seems like each individual has to do the internal Work on this one; them books are all incestuously wishful (or fear-pandering) imaginations of Some Other too-verbose ego-befuddled homo-sap of yore. All of them.
(There's damn little 'spirituality' evoked anyway.. within the corporate forms of these set-in-concrete musings; only sloppy rote incomprehension leads to, Kill a Commie for Christ and the others' variants.)
Just because this endless process of re-regurgitation is Popular, doesn't mean a One needs to be sucked in to it, y'know. Yer smarter than that, right?
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Post #237,045
12/4/05 8:10:25 PM
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look, if some mook wants to look at dna
and crossref that to a off planet origin its okay by me. On the other hand Dr.'s of Psychology/Psychiatry change the quackery yearly to match the normalization trends of a shifting global society and are hailed great scientists. One has about as much chance of being right as the other. Its not bafflegab to be constantly pattern gazing, lately iffen you notice yourself you see neocons behind even the butcher dance:-) thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #237,054
12/4/05 9:09:38 PM
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Quite right-enough
In a place where the language forms the jelloware and vice-versa. Or, in the words of another psych-'scientist', one Fritz Perls:
there's bullshit and then the much more subtle level - - elephant shit.
(Full disclosure, then: Perhaps all the foribuses should be subbed under, Entertainment.)
Neocons? just Paleocons with an Armani Butcher dance was about shaggy dogs, donchaknow?
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Post #237,591
12/10/05 10:56:12 PM
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Sep. of church/state laws don't govern philosophy
Even if ID and MU don't qualify as "science" and are merely philosophy, putting them in textbooks is not a violation of Sep-church-state laws. You can argue it is bad textbook design, but not something the feds should micromanage.
________________ oop.ismad.com
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Post #237,599
12/11/05 1:48:21 AM
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It's FRAUD if you call it science instead of philosophy.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning, As hopeless as it seems in the middle, Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #237,621
12/11/05 10:37:53 AM
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then psychology is fraud
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #237,628
12/11/05 12:43:21 PM
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This is news?
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #237,649
12/11/05 4:59:52 PM
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Soft science.
It can make predictions about behaviour based on observations that can be shown to be more likely via statistics. When the predictions don't work, different models/theories are used.
The psychological equivalent of ID would be to assume that we know all about human behaviour and that gaps in our knowledge are 'proof' of 'intelligent possession'.
IOW, ID is not a scientific theory at all. It's like looking at a blank spot on a map, and rather than exploring it to find what's really there, marking it with 'here there be dragons' or 'Atlantis'.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning, As hopeless as it seems in the middle, Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #237,674
12/11/05 9:30:36 PM
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That would be "Psychology is FREUD"
And don't go dissing that particular field. It saved my life.
Peace, Amy
"It's never too late to be who you might have been." ~ George Eliot
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Post #237,683
12/11/05 11:00:42 PM
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accuse me?
Freud figured every man wanted to bang his mom and every girl wanted to bang her dad but that is psychiatry not psychology. A Psychologist matches dance patterns with dance cards and makes up an explaination. thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #237,713
12/12/05 6:33:13 AM
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No, he didn't
That fable was his equivalent of Condi's mushroom cloud bugaboo and the conmens' War on Terriers.
Freud discovered (by listening - D'Oh) the extent of sexual abuse of young girls by the usual suspects. When he attempted to make his case before the local Elks Club / Psych and Gentlemen's Association - they made it clear that such Unthinkable allegations would result in his Not getting his robe, sceptre and license to collect fees (..and everyone calling him poo poo head.)
That last did it, and the edited-data cover story has been mauling gullible psyches ever since. (Jung was lots smarter, honest and profound - thus guaranteed to be unpopular with the Professional sects.)
HTH
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Post #237,714
12/12/05 6:36:57 AM
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I'm still not getting the connection...
...between psychology and ID.
Apart from the fact that you're constructing a logical equivalence whereby if psychology is a science, then ID is too.
Peter [link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #237,715
12/12/05 7:07:51 AM
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![New](/static/images/lrpd.gif)
Negative.
It's not that he's saying that "if psychology is a science, ID is one too" - he's saying that my arguments against ID as a science also argue against psychology. Not the same thing at all.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning, As hopeless as it seems in the middle, Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #237,716
12/12/05 7:10:47 AM
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OK...
...but why are we talking about psychology at all?
Or should this thread have branched some time ago?
Peter [link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #237,717
12/12/05 7:13:28 AM
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OT branch
was "Psychology is FREUD" - not TOO far back...
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning, As hopeless as it seems in the middle, Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #237,718
12/12/05 7:17:11 AM
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Damn Scientologists
Every time I see "OT" I think "Operating Thetan".
Bah!
Peter [link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #237,719
12/12/05 7:25:59 AM
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ROFL!
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning, As hopeless as it seems in the middle, Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #237,728
12/12/05 10:01:12 AM
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Anyone catch "Last Laugh 2005" over the weekend?
It was Comedy Central's year-end show. Andy Dick did a sketch as the wedding planner for Tom Cruise and what's-her-name's wedding. Poked many sharp sticks at Scientology. I'm guessing Andy won't be on the guest list.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #237,730
12/12/05 10:10:54 AM
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Yep.
Couple of shots at Tom Cruise too.
Funny stuff.
Bring back Ron Reagan. That'll scare them!
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #237,733
12/12/05 10:43:53 AM
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Ronnie, walking around, would scare me too...
That boy's dead...
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Post #237,737
12/12/05 11:44:56 AM
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ICLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #237736 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=237736|ICLRPD]
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #237,805
12/12/05 5:43:18 PM
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Not accusing you.
Poking at Gentle Ben, my dear friend who eschews all things to do with the field of psychology. Saw my chance for a cheap laugh and took it (what else is new? :-D)
But on a more serious note, if Intelligent Design were really true, then we are all screwed...why would God make such a thing as depression in people so severe that they would commit suicide? Doesn't sound too Intelligent to me.
Just musing. me.
"It's never too late to be who you might have been." ~ George Eliot
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Post #237,763
12/12/05 1:32:36 PM
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More like: Freud (pronounced: "fraud")
Nothing really wrong with the field. Some of its practitioners, on the other hand....
jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #236,974
12/4/05 2:59:26 AM
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Just saying "I think it's science"...
...doesn't make it science.
ID is creationism but with fancier words.
Peter [link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #237,813
12/12/05 6:31:15 PM
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ID ain't Physics. It's Meta-Physics.
And that's where ID belongs, in the study of metaphysics (i.e. philosophy).
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Post #237,820
12/12/05 8:24:44 PM
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\ufffdPrecisam\ufffdnte! - and before you start in that field
as a tyro - best to grok to fullness the physics part first.. less'n you be soo confused 'twixt the differences. The class-size is exceeding small, in these matters, but the flunk-out rate is pretty huge, I hear.
:-\ufffd
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Post #237,124
12/5/05 9:22:50 PM
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intelligent design: the agenda
As some of you may have suspected, anything as complex as the "intelligent design" movement couldn't have come about by mere chance, heh-heh. [link|http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/068482471X/qid=1133834952/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-9399079-7616953?s=books&v=glance&n=283155|"Darwin's dangerous idea"] frightens a certain segment of the influence mongers who fear that its implications will further debauch the morals of the polyester proletariat, perhaps even to the point of causing them to question their betters. From [link|http://reason.com/9707/fe.bailey.shtml|an article] published in the palmy mid-nineties: What's going on here? Opponents of Darwin traditionally have been led by biblical literalists, whose "arguments" on the subject have been generated mostly by the Book of Genesis. Now their camp includes some of the most prominent thinkers in the conservative intellectual movement.
As a matter of historical curiosity, this new turning of neocon eyes toward heaven comes just as Pope John Paul II has officially recognized that "the theory of evolution is more than an hypothesis." Indeed, it comes as evolutionary thinking itself is shedding considerable light on an array of questions and problems, from brain growth to the development of immune systems, from sociobiology to economics, from ecology to software design. Such research is yielding anti-designer results. F.A. Hayek long ago recognized the phenomenon of "spontaneous order" and described how it arose in markets, families, and other social institutions. Now, ingenious computer models are confirming Hayek's insights. It is increasingly obvious that social systems, from commerce to language, evolve and adapt without the need for top-down planning and organization. Order in markets is generated through processes analogous to Darwinian natural selection in biology. In other words, we can indeed have apparent design without a designer; the world is demonstrably brimming with just such phenomena.
...
Gross believes that the conservative attack on Darwin may be a case of tactical politics. Some conservative intellectuals think religious fundamentalists are "essential to the political program of the right," says Gross. As a gesture of solidarity, he says, these intellectuals are publicly embracing arguments that appear to "keep God in the picture."
The end of the Cold War may also be a factor. Marx fell with the Soviet Union; Freud has been discredited by modern psychology and neuroscience. The last standing member of the 19th century's unholy materialist trinity is Darwin. Berkeley law professor Phillip Johnson, author of Darwin on Trial, makes the connection clear: "Darwinism is the most important of the materialist ideologies--Marxism, Freudianism, and behaviorism are others--which have done so much damage to science and society in the 20th century." Kristol agrees. "All I want to do," he told his AEI audience, "is break the bonds of Darwinian materialism which at the moment restrict our imagination. For the moment that's enough."
But something deeper seems to be going on, and the key to it can be found in Bork's assertion in his book that religious "belief is probably essential to a civilized future." These otherwise largely secular intellectuals may well have turned on Darwin because they have concluded that his theory of evolution undermines religious faith in society at large. Of course, this is not a novel thought. Many others have arrived at the same conclusion. Conservative activist Beverly LaHaye, a biblical literalist who is president of Concerned Women for America, puts the matter directly: "If the biblical account of creation in Genesis isn't true, how can we trust the rest of the Bible?"
Kristol and his colleagues may worry that once this one thread is pulled from the fabric of religious belief, perhaps the whole will become unraveled, with grave social consequences. Without the strictures and traditions imposed by a religion that promises to punish sinners, the moral controls that moderate our base desires will lose their validity, leading ultimately to moral chaos. Ironically, today many modern conservatives fervently agree with Karl Marx that religion is "the opium of the people"; they add a heartfelt, "Thank God!"
...
Kristol has been quite candid about his belief that religion is essential for inculcating and sustaining morality in culture. He wrote in a 1991 essay, "If there is one indisputable fact about the human condition it is that no community can survive if it is persuaded--or even if it suspects--that its members are leading meaningless lives in a meaningless universe."
Another prominent neoconservative, Leon Kass, author of Toward a More Natural Science (1985), and a member of the University of Chicago's prestigious Committee on Social Thought, also believes that evolutionary theory poses a threat to social order: "[T]he creationists and their fundamentalist patrons...sense that orthodox evolutionary theory cannot support any notions we might have regarding human dignity or man's special place in the whole. And they see that Western moral teaching, so closely tied to Scripture, is also in peril if any major part of Scripture can be shown to be false."
At the heart of the neoconservative attack on Darwinism lies the political philosophy of Leo Strauss. Strauss was a German political philosopher who fled the Nazis in 1938 and began teaching at the University of Chicago in 1949. In an intellectual revolt against modernity, Strauss focused his work on interpreting such classics as Plato's Republic and Machiavelli's The Prince.
Kristol has acknowledged his intellectual debt to Strauss in a recent autobiographical essay. "What made him so controversial within the academic community was his disbelief in the Enlightenment dogma that `the truth will make men free.'" Kristol adds that "Strauss was an intellectual aristocrat who thought that the truth could make some [emphasis Kristol's] minds free, but he was convinced that there was an inherent conflict between philosophic truth and political order, and that the popularization and vulgarization of these truths might import unease, turmoil and the release of popular passions hitherto held in check by tradition and religion with utterly unpredictable, but mostly negative, consequences."
Kristol agrees with this view. "There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people," he says in an interview. "There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn't work." Sound like anyone we know? Hint: who's a certain bot's [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=119958|favorite "phil"osopher?] cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #237,128
12/5/05 10:02:40 PM
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And around and around..
As all attention spans are progressively liquidated by the immediate transistor plugged into ears; in car, shower, bus, john; in front of a CRT - faux phil-osophers, sophophobes? shall be endlessly quoted by My Gramma (and her contemporary spawn, the Nintendo Eloi.) Always concluding, I Know I'm Right!
cha. cha. cha. First the bull shit, then the elephant shit; (We never get to the Tyrannosaurus shit in these parts. Fortunately.)
But, WTF - 16 days to Winter Solstice! :-)
Borrow 4 horses: sacrifice a neoconman
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Post #237,141
12/6/05 2:43:04 AM
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300 years after the Enlightenment and we still get this.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #237,188
12/6/05 2:03:15 PM
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This crap pisses me off
Without the strictures and traditions imposed by a religion that promises to punish sinners, the moral controls that moderate our base desires will lose their validity, leading ultimately to moral chaos. So you can't be moral without religion? Comparing the ethics and morals of most athiests I know to those with a religious belief, I find the non-religious are usually more concerned with the welfare of their fellow man. You know, all that "do unto others" stuff. Just because you would happily rob, rape and kill if not for religion telling you that's a nono doesn't mean others would. YMMV
----------------------------------------- No new taxes. --George H. W. Bush
We don't torture. --George W. Bush
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Post #237,204
12/6/05 3:31:32 PM
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religion is an opiate for the sociopaths? probably
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #237,269
12/7/05 8:47:01 AM
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Not just sociopaths, everybody ;0)
But we've been hooked on it so long, we've overdosed and we're gonna burn for it.
bcnu, Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #237,206
12/6/05 3:45:09 PM
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I'm not persuaded. 47 kB .img
Because there are various incarnations of ID floating around, I felt I should make clear the working version I am using here.
Intelligent Design (ID) is based on the observation that the only fully observed source of complex devices or machines is from intelligent designers: our fellow humans who engineered and built them. Thus, it is reasonable to suspect or at least inquire that complex life forms were perhaps also made by intelligent being(s).
The intelligent being(s) could be aliens, humans who came back in time, smart robots, being(s) with god-like powers, etc. ID does not actually attempt to identify a specific intelligence at this stage. Further, the intelligence does not have to be supernatural or omnipotent to qualify as a potential designer. In fact, the designer(s) may be sloppy, lazy, have limited skills, use trial-and-error, etc. You need to define your terms. Is a carbon-60 molecule "complex"? [image|http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/assets/images/2003/May-09-2003/BuckyballEDU2.jpg|0|Carbon 60 Buckyball|300|304] It looks pretty complex to me. It's man-made, but it's not made by people picking up individual atoms and arranging them just-so. It's not "designed", though it might appear to be. It forms naturally under the appropriate conditions. By naturally, I mean that the carbon bonds arrange themselves to minimize their energy without any supernatural assistance. The result is the soccer-ball shaped "Buckyball". No ID is needed. ID is the supposition that says: "I can't figure out how this was done, therefore some being ('God', but I can't say that word) did it. That being cannot be studied by science. Since nobody knows, at this moment exactly how this thing was done, I can argue that my religious construct is just as good as science and get equal billing." ID is not science. It's not a "[link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_science|soft-science]" either - it's religion. It's damaging to science and should be fought vigorously. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #237,336
12/8/05 3:39:26 AM
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God-Man\ufffd explains finally.. how it works
at [link|http://www.salon.com/comics/boll/2005/12/08/boll/index1.html| Salon] Scripture illustrated by Tom the Dancing Bug - with a 25 Karat gold-plated flagellum.
I'd buy it. But would the Pope bid higher?
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Post #237,376
12/8/05 5:49:48 PM
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I like the non sequitor version better
cant find the cartoon but involves a superior being adjusting pants then lighting smoke discarding match into outhouse. thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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