Plenty easy to shoot w/o identifying victims

It's EZ for the Red Stater masses to laud the obscenties we commit around the world because they don't see anything around the world. You can't believe how many people in Indiana I've heard say, "It's not that bad down there. The media is just playing this up because they don't like President Bush." I-am-not-joking. I have heard those very words on more than one occasion. Bush supporters have to be hit over the head with a brick repeatedly before they even recognize that they are being hit on the head with a brick. It's easy to support horror if you don't have to look at it.

In a similar vein, by showing the real cost of epic incompetence, perhaps those brainless millions who supported his Moroness will begin to actually *think* about what they are supporting.

Showing a bunch of dead people floating in a putrid pool of water *does* reduce these victims to nothing but a number. They become just one of the thousands dead.

I would say it's exactly the reverse. Without pictures they become nothing but statistics. It's one thing to say that 10,000 died, another to actually see pictures of even a small fraction of them.

If you want to bring the point home- show the families grieving over their loved ones. Show the kids who are left orphaned. That will demonstrate the degree of human pain and suffering this disaster has caused much more effectively than showing a bunch of floaters. Or at least it should.

My point of view is almost exactly opposite that. As I see it, the grieving families are the only ones with privacy to protect here, and if it where me, the last thing I would want is any of my grief becoming public.

I wonder if part of the difference is in your comment about showing pain and suffering. In truth, that is not my primary reason for wanting see what happened in New Orleans.

My desire is to know what happened as accuratly as possible. When, where and how did people die? What could have been done better? How do we prevent this from happening again? Those questions can not be answered if we don't have accurate information. And I don't trust the government to gather it or release it on their own.

Jay

Post #223,416 by tuberculosis 9/7/05 12:08:49 PM 8/21/07 6:37:00 AM Reply	Plenty easy to shoot w/o identifying victims not showing faces, etc. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:37:00 AM EDT Plenty easy to shoot w/o identifying victims not showing faces, etc. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Collapse All History
Post #223,420 by bepatient 9/7/05 12:12:17 PM Reply	And in many cases that has already been done If the specifics of the order are different, I'll recant. And, given how stupid everyone inolved seems to have gotten...I wouldn't be surprised if I end up recanting my objection. Longstanding tradition, withholding ID until notification. I agree with it then, and now. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #223,423 by tuberculosis 9/7/05 12:13:56 PM 8/21/07 6:37:14 AM Reply	Me too Most shots of dead I have seen have been face down floaters. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:37:14 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #223,424 by bionerd 9/7/05 12:17:16 PM Reply	Doesnt matter if you can see the face or not. That person is still someone's loved one. No need to traumatize the survivors more just to satisfy the public's morbid curiosity.
Post #223,427 by mmoffitt 9/7/05 12:26:48 PM Reply	I think it is the motive for the directive at question. And there is precedent. Seen any photos of flag draped coffins lately? bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #223,436 by bionerd 9/7/05 12:47:13 PM Reply	The problem is that a moral issue has been turned into political issue and at whose expense? Not the politicians. The survivors. The people who have already been through hell and back. Other than political, what is the benefit of showing these pictures?
Post #223,447 by mmoffitt 9/7/05 1:01:24 PM Reply	Nothing. If you don't value truth. It's EZ for the Red Stater masses to laud the obscenties we commit around the world because they don't see anything around the world. You can't believe how many people in Indiana I've heard say, "It's not that bad down there. The media is just playing this up because they don't like President Bush." I-am-not-joking. I have heard those very words on more than one occasion. Bush supporters have to be hit over the head with a brick repeatedly before they even recognize that they are being hit on the head with a brick. It's easy to support horror if you don't have to look at it. In a similar vein, by showing the real cost of epic incompetence, perhaps those brainless millions who supported his Moroness will begin to actually think about what they are supporting. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #223,430 by tuberculosis 9/7/05 12:34:39 PM 8/21/07 6:37:33 AM Reply	Taking != releasing I think they should take all the pics they can. Probably be useful some day. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:37:33 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #223,433 by pwhysall 9/7/05 12:39:03 PM 9/7/05 12:39:37 PM Reply	It's the facts, though. Why sanitise it? Why not show the vast bovine populace at large that "some of your fellow Americans actually died and here they are"? It's my firm belief that the real human cost of such events should no be hidden from people, because all too often, these things get reduced to just a number. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! Edited by pwhysall Sept. 7, 2005, 12:39:37 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #223,435 by mmoffitt 9/7/05 12:44:48 PM Reply	Because it's "Un-American". bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #223,438 by bionerd 9/7/05 12:55:02 PM Reply	Hey, I enjoy blood and gore as much as the next guy but we all know people died. Showing a bunch of dead people floating in a putrid pool of water does reduce these victims to nothing but a number. They become just one of the thousands dead. If you want to bring the point home- show the families grieving over their loved ones. Show the kids who are left orphaned. That will demonstrate the degree of human pain and suffering this disaster has caused much more effectively than showing a bunch of floaters. Or at least it should.
Post #223,448 by mmoffitt 9/7/05 1:02:41 PM Reply	Nah, the survivors can eat cake. Just ask Barbara Bush. They're better off, honest, the President's mother said so. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #223,453 by bionerd 9/7/05 1:14:21 PM Reply	Well if mother Bush said so, it must be true! Of course I understand where you're coming from. I dont disagree that there's a need, but I think it's shameful that we have to use the deceased as bricks to hit people over the head.
Post #223,455 by drewk 9/7/05 1:20:13 PM Reply	What a great visual Beating people over the head with the deceased. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #223,486 by inthane-chan 9/7/05 3:39:19 PM Reply	I think it's a sign of just how bad things have gotten.
Post #223,509 by ben_tilly 9/7/05 5:48:54 PM Reply	There is is a line... between showing what happened and exploitation of people's misery. Showing people grieving crosses that line IMO. How would you like to have footage of you grieving over your dead kids displayed in the national media? By contrast showing unidentifiable corpses in the water creates an emotional impact without singling out individual families for national exposure. To me that is far less exploitive. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #223,511 by bionerd 9/7/05 5:59:41 PM Reply	Well, I disagree I would much rather have them show me grieving vs. having my kids bodies shown. Even if I was the only one who could identify them, I wouldnt want it. Even if there were unidentifiable, I would know they might be mine, and I wouldnt want it. But thats just me.
Post #223,618 by JayMehaffey 9/7/05 11:59:29 PM Reply	Re: Hey, I enjoy blood and gore as much as the next guy Showing a bunch of dead people floating in a putrid pool of water does reduce these victims to nothing but a number. They become just one of the thousands dead. I would say it's exactly the reverse. Without pictures they become nothing but statistics. It's one thing to say that 10,000 died, another to actually see pictures of even a small fraction of them. If you want to bring the point home- show the families grieving over their loved ones. Show the kids who are left orphaned. That will demonstrate the degree of human pain and suffering this disaster has caused much more effectively than showing a bunch of floaters. Or at least it should. My point of view is almost exactly opposite that. As I see it, the grieving families are the only ones with privacy to protect here, and if it where me, the last thing I would want is any of my grief becoming public. I wonder if part of the difference is in your comment about showing pain and suffering. In truth, that is not my primary reason for wanting see what happened in New Orleans. My desire is to know what happened as accuratly as possible. When, where and how did people die? What could have been done better? How do we prevent this from happening again? Those questions can not be answered if we don't have accurate information. And I don't trust the government to gather it or release it on their own. Jay

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