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New Dead right on the d'oeuvres
And 98.8 is close enough. I can't be sure of the effects of jingoism in all European languages, but my take on the common misprununciations here, is..

1) Muricans are lazy about most all etymology and place no large value upon using language 'well' - effectively..? well yes: but only in the context of selling *something* [usually.. more Stuff; then comes - selling some cockamamie Bowdlerized version of a once-meaningful concept.] In this category lies [both or several connotations]

2) The genuine Circus which is - just after bizspeak - politico-babble. That wherein the aforementioned 98.8 % tend to imagine that every Murican may be neatly categorized as A Conservative or.. Liberal. This while -long since- BOTH words have so far diverged from an inkling of meaningful concept - as explains the sniping everywhere (not just zIWE) with all parties tilting at each participant's caricature of the other's caricature of... (something?). Yes I realize that other cultures do a similar hatchet job; ego takes care of the rest, to ensure a certain surreal quality to Most political debate (Tory/Labor yada yada). BUT here, it has long ago reached the stage where no sane discussion, let alone debate is possible - unless prefaced by a small essay defining terms. (Hey.. sometimes this does happen!)

3) There appears to be a perverse pleasure taken here - in deliberately Bowdlerizing the *sound* of even the most euphonious of words from other languages. A stubborn pride ~~ maybe: I'll show them furriners what I think o'their unMurican stoopid blather! I've already given specific examples. Worst mangling occurs to Spanish/Mexican - despite or because of their geog. proximity (and now increasing proportion of 'the Murican Peepul' too). In some quarters, correct pronunciation is deemed either effete intellectual snobbery or .. Commyunist-inspired [don't ask].

So what does one call, taking pride in flaunting both one's ignorance and one's recalcitrance .. in remedying it ?

In contrast: Surely the French possess one of the more euphonious languages extant (another word used here, hardly) - and are perhaps the most assiduous in trying to prevent its devolvement into biz-speak and Murican-style sloppiness generally. They love to mimic the rilly bad attempts of furriners barely even trying to speak it..

BUT - my experience in France (and Quebec) is that, any earnest attempt to speak.. is rewarded with goodwill (and the occasional whispered translation!). And if you do a pretty good job, on some oft needed phrases.. you might get a genuine smile of appreciation. Vivent longtemps la diff\ufffdrence!

En fin:

Waddaya call a person who speaks two languages?
bilingue, Three languages? trilingue
One language? America(i)n(e)

Yeah.. beating a dead horse again. Still.. I believe it is *mostly* because of our ignorant disdain for correct language that,

We keep electing assholes to high office; keep believing their self-attached labels mean something! It's the cause of matters last coming down to a Dubya and a Gore and.. there being damn few who today, come to mind as possible successors to the present Constitutional trashers.. who imagine with some reason to: that most Muricans don't know / don't care and are a bunch of scared sheep. (Disdain for the smart Muricans is also built-in, on another level: our inherent anti-intellectualism from the first)

"hors d'oeuvres" and "Lozangelas" are just the harpoon at the tip of the iceberg of arrogant jingoism here. So what do the Finns generally fuck-up? Are elections as stoopid-based but with better language enroute? Cold climate more conducive to cerebral exercise than er temperate one? (Maybe the sauna improves the specific pericosity of neurons, too ??)

{sigh}


Ashton
ranter Pro Tem n'Ad Hoc for the Wisdom of Confucius about such matters, who said -

(what I quoted eons ago)

PS IMhO your "awr devr(uh)" example is a sufficient clarification and.. eventually eliding the 'uh' comes with just a few days of Listening to Others speaking.. a radical concept; too much trouble for lots o' Murican manic travelers (Hey.. we gots 5 days left! enough to do France, Italy, Spain and Portugal.)
Mother forgive them, for the @$%^& assholes know Not What they Do
New Sorry, but now I just *have* to ask...
Ashton:
In some quarters, correct pronunciation is deemed either effete intellectual snobbery or .. Commyunist-inspired [don't ask].
Come now -- after that titillating invitation, how could I not?

I mean, "correct pronunciation is ... Commyunist-inspired"?!? Where the FUCK would they get THAT from???


In contrast: Surely the French possess one of the more euphonious languages extant
Actually, no -- IMO, it's really rather ugly. And I don't say this lightly or jokingly; I used to unthinkingly subscribe to the same "common knowledge" prejudice, but feel somehow vaguely bothered about it... Until a few years ago, when for the first time I really sat down and thunk about it. OK, so y'all'll (if that isn't a legitimate contraction, it *ought* to be! :-) probablly think I'm totally bonkers when I say I think German, for instance, sounds better... But that can't be helped, 'coz I do.


BUT - my experience in France (and Quebec) is that, any earnest attempt to speak.. is rewarded with goodwill (and the occasional whispered translation!). And if you do a pretty good job, on some oft needed phrases.. you might get a genuine smile of appreciation. Vivent longtemps la diff\ufffdrence!
Fuck yeah -- and it works everywhere, not just among Francophones.

Heinlein observed, in one of his "juveniles" (can't recall precisely which one -- perhaps _Podkayne of Mars_?), that just learning to say "Thank You" in the local language was likely to give you a huge leg up on anyone who couldn't even be bothered to do that. An approximate quote of his young protagonist learning a few: "In Finnish, they say 'Key Toss'; in Danish it's 'Money Talks' -- perhaps they're a very mercenary people..." (The sentence as a whole is almost guaranteed to be wrong, but I'm 100% sure the homophonous English phrases are the correct ones.)


So what do the Finns generally fuck-up
Hey, they're human -- so what *don't* they...?


Are elections as stoopid-based but with better language enroute?
Not quite as bad as yours; for one thing, they have more than two parties. It has interesting contrasts to the (much more similar than the American) Swedish system -- some in its favour, some not.


Cold climate more conducive to cerebral exercise than er temperate one?
Isn't that the Other Hoary Olde hypothesis, akin to the one about how the harsher conditions in the European climate made people by necessity more industrious, and thus just logical candidates to conquer and own the world? In some ways, it just seems to stand to reason -- in other, it smacks heavily of "White Man's Burden" justifications for, basically, racism.


(Maybe the sauna improves the specific pericosity of neurons, too ??
I'd speculate more along the lines of stimulating the flow of blood to the head (a cooling reflex), and thus more or less incidentally to the brain... Actually, I think there *is* such an effect -- it certainly *feels* as if there were! -- but if that's so, any such intellectual stimulation is probably only temporary, not permanent.


PS IMhO your "awr devr(uh)" example is a sufficient clarification
Eucharisto! :-)


and.. eventually eliding the 'uh' comes with just a few days of Listening to Others speaking..
Well, to be perfectly honest, I think even the French have *some*, albeit micro-minuscule, sound there. For one thing, it's just physiologically easier to pronounce v-r *in that order*, even for them, if you have *some* amount of aspiration after them; for another, remember that "silent" vowels were actually fully pronounced, once upon a long-ago -- maybe they just never went *completely* away? (And when they finally do, wouldn't it be about fucking time to eliminate them from the spelling too?)
   Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
New Thought That one almost obvious (?)
Xenophobia Means! .. you are suspect! [of Something - not important what] should you happen to imagine that the Murican version [of anything] could be at all improved by: someone Else's version. So in the Mc Carthy era [now making a quick encore - oops! a furrin word. OK - rerun], when you combined the daily Drum-roll of Commyunists, even under yer bed - all a tryin to Kill ya dead, and season with the anti-intellectualism / attacks on tenure at Universities -

Sample: One UC Regent suggested, no difference between a professor and a janitor: both employees of the University That time it took about 3 years - to reverse the loyalty oath, restore professorships (those who would come back there) and eventually - back pay too. Not sure what will result: if it comes up again shortly..

French not euphonious? OK take second first. A popular prejudice among the barely literate: German sounds too.. too gutteral! (When I ever hear this; unlikely given who I hang out with - I just play Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau singing lieder: he of the almost infinite dynamic range and perfect diction as well. Case closed forever. (Well.. except for Treue Xenophobes o'course; nothin works with some)

Back to the heretical proposition: Thinking.. remembering.. Well, there's Edith Piaf or even Josephine Baker. C'est si bon !! murmured under right conditions. Je t'aime's a winner in any environment. Does Ich liebe Sie come close enough? carburant-inject\ufffd moteur vs kraftstoff-eingespritzter motor ...

Trying really hard.. I can give a certain nod to the idea of 'overrated', as I see lots of the drill being about learning some new (some would say unnecessarily weird) glottal adjustments -- of the sort which must drive AI attempts at translation - bonkers as in Please wait - reinstalling kernel, flushing cache. But I'll have to ponder this one - yes perhaps left-over brain washing; I admit I'm at least 1.42% imperfect in such matters!


Y'all'll ? why sho'nuff lil brother, that'n's a good'un; good as ary I ever did seen. Crimanentlies, Batman..

'Money Talks' .. well, haveing actually paid attention to er maenge taks and to be smartass, maenge toosend tak - I'd call that a bit wide of the mark. Think it's more like.. 'mang' (pronounced more like Kong as in King) with a bit of an 'uh' at the end + 'tock' (as in Tick-). No One\ufffd can ever pronounce R\ufffdd Gr\ufffdd med fl\ufffdde! until at least a year in Dk.

Howsomever.. We Are Needed, fellow nit-picker. As the slope

\\
_\\
__\\

moves towards a fraction of a centipoise in slipperiness, with the biz-mangling of All Language.. Ours is the Decent, the Honourable, the Fucking Sane Way to oppose all that mercantile maudlin Shit... everywhere in garish neon and 100 dB noise.

And I am unanimous in that.



Ashton the Vincible
New Linguistic Americans
"The English language is the result of Roman soldiers trying to chat up Saxon barmaids, and about as legitimate as the other issue." -- H. Beam Piper (from Space Viking, 1962 or thereabouts)

Once upon a time I was in Germany, conversing with some techs. They were trying to find a way to express, in German, the word "vignetting" as a technical term in photography -- the effect that causes the center of the frame to be more exposed than the edges, without measures taken to avoid this.

They worked at it for some time without a clear result, coming up with some rather Twainish jawcrackers in the process. Finally I told them that they were working hard to no purpose; they should adopt the practice of English speakers.

Linguistic Imperialism!

That is, if another language contains a short or somehow attractive term for something difficult to express in English -- English speakers will simply steal the said term, file the serial numbers off, and put it in the dictionary. Gestalt is an English word, and isn't pronounced anything like the original German! [There are multitudes of other examples, some from the French rehearsed above.] Vignette is a French word meaning something entirely different; how it got to be a photographic technical term is a long story --

The Germans in question, being good Stalinist East Germans (this was 1983, back when there was such a place) were properly aghast at the notion.

But that's the way it works, and has since antiquity. The practice of treating French borrow-words as high class, and Saxon-derived ones as plebian, probably dates to the Norman Conquest, after which the Normans' doxies were elegantly nhuid, while the Anglo-Saxon peasants bathed ne kod in the creek.

So, nothing new under the sun, eh, Ashton?
Regards,
Ric
(PS Arabic strongly influences two categories of words in English. One of them is mathematics [al japhr, "the zero"]; what's the other, trivia freaks?)
New Cipher (cypher).
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
New Bzzt! --wrong. That's the same word.
Regards,
Ric
New My guess
alphabet. (the word not the thing)

Yup, as Tom Lehrer says in his advice to mathematicians everywhere -

..so let not a thing evade your eyes; dont shade your eyes but plagiarize.. plagiarize.. plagiarize! But please to call it.. .. research.

All true. We steal, often the Best. And that's Smart. Imagine a replacement for nuance or aperitif, though one writer has determined that cellar door is perhaps the goodest-sounding Murican phrase (we'd have to steal to say euphonious ;-) - and we did: Euphonium! - a damn nice sounding brass.

Got nothing against Engrish, Murican style (well.. except for.. almost.. Every Single *&($%$ Ad-jingle - and most biz-TLAs and ____ ). Shakespeare properly read: proof enough.

Now with vignette ya gotta watch that first letter! or you might be understood to be askin fer some tete.. if'n ya know what I mean and I think ya do - so there's some danger in puttin on airs. Nyet?



'Course when the subject turns to the Econ scam and the 5% E-lite.. and all the patent BS a justifyin the perpetual fat cats a makin 1000x of sane people: only Rus can capture the situation, tui grosnya kapitalistichiskaya svinya!


Cheers,

Ashton
body-language says it best .. (lucky for us all)
Which body language would You express to Billy or Bally?

(I think I like the European version which involves a forearm)
New Computronics? (Al-Khwarizmi, "Algorithm")
New Or hot-climate food, clothes, and soldiering?
New Comfortable furniture; "sofa", etc.
New Duh! Ah, isn't that what the whole Ottoman Empire was about?
     Heading to Chicago for Xmas - (SpiceWare) - (55)
         About 30 miles away - (Silverlock) - (46)
             Know right where it is - (SpiceWare) - (45)
                 Maybe we can meet when I go shopping - (Silverlock) - (44)
                     Sounds good to me. - (SpiceWare) - (43)
                         Monday? Meet for a couple/3 drinks? -NT - (Silverlock) - (42)
                             Sounds good. - (SpiceWare) - (41)
                                 What's yer email addie? - (Silverlock) - (40)
                                     sounds good - dropped you a note -NT - (SpiceWare)
                                     OT, Waay OT: Why do you folks call the main course "entree"? -NT - (CRConrad) - (38)
                                         Because that's what it is. - (Silverlock) - (36)
                                             In British English too, or just American? - (CRConrad) - (35)
                                                 Merriam-Webster - "the main course of a meal in the U.S." - (SpiceWare)
                                                 Plus it means I is reefined if'n I use furrin wurds. -NT - (Silverlock)
                                                 In .au, Entree = before the main meal - (Meerkat)
                                                 Re: In British English too, or just American? - (pwhysall) - (31)
                                                     Don't they usually drop the accent, when... - (CRConrad) - (30)
                                                         Merkin meal order - (Silverlock) - (18)
                                                             Reminds me of an Australian traveller. - (Meerkat) - (17)
                                                                 Damn phony-sophisticate philistines. - (CRConrad)
                                                                 Yabut.. do they serve on those salads - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                     Depends on the establishment. - (Meerkat)
                                                                 Food abroad - (kmself) - (13)
                                                                     Pickles, beets n Kraut aint veggies? - (boxley) - (12)
                                                                         Mexican Nescaf\ufffd is different - (Ashton) - (11)
                                                                             Milk in Mexico - (Ric Locke) - (10)
                                                                                 Yes: but it is scalded when used in cafe con leche.. - (Ashton) - (9)
                                                                                     Ah, yes, part of the recipe - (Ric Locke) - (8)
                                                                                         Hey you're right! - (Ashton) - (7)
                                                                                             You should go back; you'd be both pleased and appalled - (Ric Locke) - (6)
                                                                                                 Thanks for the update - (Ashton) - (5)
                                                                                                     The Mexico I love is the east coast - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                         Added to fantasy itinerary or maybe - (Ashton)
                                                                                                     Insane travelling companions - (mhuber) - (2)
                                                                                                         Damn.. I'm usually the one who has to remind self - - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                                                             All my stories like that - (Ric Locke)
                                                         Dead right on the d'oeuvres - (Ashton) - (10)
                                                             Sorry, but now I just *have* to ask... - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                                 Thought That one almost obvious (?) - (Ashton)
                                                             Linguistic Americans - (Ric Locke) - (7)
                                                                 Cipher (cypher). -NT - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                                                                     Bzzt! --wrong. That's the same word. -NT - (Ric Locke)
                                                                 My guess - (Ashton)
                                                                 Computronics? (Al-Khwarizmi, "Algorithm") -NT - (CRConrad)
                                                                 Or hot-climate food, clothes, and soldiering? -NT - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                                                     Comfortable furniture; "sofa", etc. -NT - (Ric Locke) - (1)
                                                                         Duh! Ah, isn't that what the whole Ottoman Empire was about? -NT - (CRConrad)
                                         in sofla entree also means earlybird - (boxley)
         Planned route - (SpiceWare) - (2)
             nking - will you be home for xmas? -NT - (SpiceWare) - (1)
                 Yes and no - (nking)
         Doh! - (Yendor) - (2)
             Oh well, at least I got to see you last time :-) - (SpiceWare) - (1)
                 Indeed - (Yendor)
         Re: Heading to Chicago for Xmas - (mhuber) - (1)
             Maybe you can meet up with Silverlock & I for lunch? - (SpiceWare)

Return the relics to the elephants, and Atlantis rises.
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