Post #217,495
8/4/05 2:48:30 PM
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Say what?
The solution is bloatware? You cannot "code" for every possible thing that can happen in the air. To try is folly at best, but I'll grant it will make a few very wealthy.
Computers are NOT the solution to everything. You want to put all that crap on an aircraft - fine. But make an "off" switch available so that when a situation arises that the vaunted programmers didn't think of you at least give the trained pilot (and his passengers) a chance to fly the airplane that he is, after all, the pilot in command of.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #217,690
8/5/05 10:16:25 AM
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What "trained pilot"?
Dude, don't you know that the whole point of this exercise is to remove the "trained pilot" from the equation. Remember Burns First Law of the Corporation: Skill is the enemy of Management Corporations will do anything to drive skill from their workforce. Skill costs, and the less skill that is required by a corporation to produce whatever it is that it produces (assuming, of course that it produces anything), the more there is for the honchos' collective Golden Parachutes. FBW is just another step toward that goal. Now, the flying public would never allow an unmanned cockpit, but a single Electrical Technician sitting up front, wearing something resembling a pilot's uniform whose job is simply to monitor the blinking lights costs a whole lot less than three dues-paying members of the Brotherhood of Airline Pilots (or whatever their union is called these days). jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #217,721
8/5/05 1:23:57 PM
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Doh! </me slaps self on forehead>
Of course, what was I thinking? And it's ALPA (AirLine Pilots Association) btw ;0)
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #217,731
8/5/05 2:12:57 PM
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My guess
is that the "trained pilot" can't fly the airplane on his own anyhow.
The key problem is that the system is now mapping conventional control inputs to very unconventional control outputs and the pilots don't have that mapping in their training at all. The only point of still having yoke, wheel, and rudder pedals is to allow the pilots to instruct the plane to modify roll pitch and yaw, but how the airplane actually implements those commands maybe isn't completely analagous to how the controls traditionally work.
So my guess is the "off" switch will likely put the pilot in a situation he can't cope with. In the case you sited, I'd guess that the aggresive response probably would have either whipstalled the plane, thrown it into uncontrollable oscillations, or overstressed the airframe and produced catastrophic failure.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #217,732
8/5/05 2:14:20 PM
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in an f16 turn off the computer
it rolls upside down into an uncontrolled dive into the dirt.
thanx,
bill
Just call me Mr. Lynch \\
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
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Post #217,734
8/5/05 2:16:55 PM
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You're so much more succinct that I am.
But that was basically my point.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #217,752
8/5/05 3:00:31 PM
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Then why do Boeing FBW aircraft *all* have "off" switches?
Including the 777?
And, you basically restated a part of my post. I agree that pushing back both yokes *might* have caused structural failure. And to be sure, the flaky Airbus design has some big time issues (recall the tail falling off when the pilot used opposite rudder to conteract an encounter with wake turbulence). But, in the case I cited, smoothing the round out into the ground was hardly a better solution, wouldn't you agree?
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #217,755
8/5/05 3:08:29 PM
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Probably the pilots demanded them.
Kinda hard to give up that control, you know, even if it's getting beyond you.
A test pilot for the first model of the F4 turned off the automatic controls during high speed flight. One engine climbed about 1000 feet higher before flame-out, the other went somewhere else, and the rest was shreds.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #217,756
8/5/05 3:13:16 PM
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I always like this one.
You've never been lost until you've been lost at Mach 3. (Attributed to SR-71 test pilot Paul Crickmore)
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #217,767
8/5/05 4:11:17 PM
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But at Mach 3, you'll get found REAL fast....
Remember, you're never really lost, you're just temporarily disoriented....
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #217,782
8/5/05 5:31:11 PM
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Or 3 states away from where you're supposed to be. ;0)
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #217,766
8/5/05 4:10:04 PM
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As goes chess ---> so goes 'piloting'___[???] (new thread)
Created as new thread #217765 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=217765|As goes chess ---> so goes 'piloting'___[???]]
Have a nice flight.. flight.. fl
But don't forget to stop at the Airporte Shoppe pre-flight
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Post #217,790
8/5/05 5:55:34 PM
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IIRC, depends on aircraft design
normal design with FBW -- no problem flying manually.
"relaxed stability design" with FBW (maybe F-16 was first, I'm not sure) -- flying is possible but very difficult with it off
"inherently unstable design" (probably includes latest US fighters F-22, JSF) -- cannot fly without FBW.
But the more unstable design can, IIRC, improve performance and allow dog fighting maneuvers that are simply impossible with conventional aircraft.
I'm not sure what, if any, the benefits of relaxed/no stability are for airliners. I doubt any airliners are inherently unstable yet (let the USAF/USN test for a decade first, I'd hope).
Tony
Who used to know more about this stuff
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Post #217,864
8/6/05 6:09:45 PM
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Actually, it won't be the USAF/USN that are the first to...
...reach a decade of tests: The Swedish, Czech, Hungarian, and South African air forces will beat them to it, since they're either already using or about to take into use the world's first inherently unstable fighter plane *in production* -- the [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_Gripen|SAAB Gripen].
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
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Post #218,091
8/8/05 9:32:53 AM
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Guess the F117 doesn't count?
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Post #218,122
8/8/05 2:03:41 PM
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Which first flew in 1977.
Peter
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Post #218,215
8/8/05 5:59:41 PM
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Live and learn. I only knew it was butt-ugly. ;-)
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