Nit. Airbus is not exclusively French.

Post #217,202 by mmoffitt 8/3/05 11:13:52 AM Reply	Nit. Airbus is not exclusively French. And that's what you get with fly-by-wire. I hate those aircraft. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #217,206 by bionerd 8/3/05 11:17:07 AM Reply	I know But I was annoyed and it always seems so appropriate to blame the french.
Post #217,214 by mmoffitt 8/3/05 11:34:37 AM Reply	Forgot something. I meant to say sorry about your date ;0) bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #217,207 by jake123 8/3/05 11:17:53 AM Reply	This one was... it was Air France --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #217,210 by bionerd 8/3/05 11:29:39 AM Reply	Air France Concord When the Air France Concord went down in 2000 the media used a picture of the British Airways Concord to supplement the TV coverage. This was a nightmare for BA. The accident had nothing to do with BA but they had to activate their disaster response plan because the public thought it was BA incident. BA spent a lot of time and money doing damage control. Just an interesting story for ya.
Post #217,216 by a6l6e6x 8/3/05 11:37:22 AM Reply	Please madame, it is Concorde! :) Alex The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #217,225 by bionerd 8/3/05 11:51:17 AM Reply	Potato/Potatoe You're right, though. :-) It's a darn shame they retired the ConcordE. BA Concorde record time from Heathrow to JFK: 2 hours 34 minutes. I know this because BA gave me a t-shirt that tells me so.
Post #217,227 by Another Scott 8/3/05 11:55:25 AM Reply	"BA flew to NY in 2 hours 34 minutes and all I got ..." :-)
Post #217,229 by mmoffitt 8/3/05 12:08:55 PM Reply	Feh. The Shuttle does it a lot faster. Of course it doesn't land but who wants to do that? :-D bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #217,278 by tuberculosis 8/3/05 3:37:30 PM Reply	I certainly try to avoid landing in aircraft of any kind "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #217,280 by mmoffitt 8/3/05 3:39:15 PM Reply	No accounting for taste, I guess. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #217,281 by tuberculosis 8/3/05 3:40:46 PM Reply	Look what happened to that "perfectly good airplane" "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #217,284 by mmoffitt 8/3/05 3:43:54 PM Reply	Who said it was "perfectly good"? It was FBW donchaknow. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #217,286 by tuberculosis 8/3/05 3:52:36 PM Reply	Is that really so much less reliable than FBM? Flown By Meat "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #217,290 by mmoffitt 8/3/05 4:13:38 PM Reply	Um, it would have been nice to FBM on these. Cross-wired Controls Almost Bring Down Lufthansa Airliner Air Safety Week, June 4, 2001 A Lufthansa A320 came within less than two feet and a few seconds of crashing during takeoff on a planned flight from Frankfurt to Paris. [link\|http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UBT/is_23_15/ai_75307962\|http://www.findartic...23_15/ai_75307962] The aircraft overran runway 4 while landing. A malfunction of the onboard flight computers prevented power from being reduced to idle, which inhibited thrust reverse and spoilers from being used. The offending engine was shut down, and brakes applied, but the aircraft was unable to stop before the end of the runway. [link\|http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/view_details.cgi?date=03221998®=RP-C3222&airline=Philippine+Airlines\|http://www.airdisast...ilippine+Airlines] While on approach into Strasbourg, the aircraft [F-WWDP] impacted the side of a mountain. The cause of the crash was found to be a faulty design in an autopilot mode selector switch which led the flight crew to inadvertently select a 3,300 foot per minute descent rate on the approach instead of the desired 3.3\ufffd flight path angle. [link\|http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/inter148/photo.shtml\|http://www.airdisast...er148/photo.shtml] When the GPWS alerted the crew about their unusual increased sink rate, the pilots decided to perform a go-around and applied TOGA-power. But the crew\ufffds desired and commanded action was not performed by the aircraft. As the alpha-protection was triggered during this event, the system commanded a nose down signal, which was performed, even though both pilots had their sticks full backward, commanding a \ufffdclimb\ufffd. Nevertheless the airplane touched down with all three gears struts almost simultaneously and with an estimated vertical speed of 1,400ft./min. The nose gear subsequently collapsed and the plane slid along the runway for about 3,280 ft. before coming to a stop. [link\|http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Safety_Issues/others/Bilbao.html\|http://www.iasa.com....thers/Bilbao.html] *See a pattern yet? If not, I can provide more links.* bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #217,312 by admin 8/3/05 6:03:48 PM Reply	What the intent behind FBW? And how many accidents would there be without it? Just curious, I know nothing about it. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #217,323 by tuberculosis 8/3/05 7:18:27 PM Reply	A few things From: [link\|http://www.disenchanted.com/dis/technology/fly-by-wire.html\|http://www.disenchan.../fly-by-wire.html] Adding a computer between the pilot and the plane was like sprinkling magic pixie dust: you got all of the benefits with hardly any drawbacks. Fly-By-Wire makes the aircraft lighter because it eliminates the bulk of the hydraulic systems. It makes it more maneuverable because the computer can perform hundreds more adjustments per second than a human. It makes passenger aircraft fly smoother, and with greater fuel economy. Plus on warplanes, wires were even less vulnerable to battle damage than regular control lines. Throw in enough redundancy and it even becomes less susceptible to failure than a traditional mechanical control system. Fly-by-wire's advantages were so obvious that designers were thinking about it in the 60s, and it was only computers they waited on to get small and powerful enough to fly a plane. Both systems have their issues but lets face it, the modern airliner is beyond the point of complexity where a human or even a small crew can fly it reliably. Plus, hydraulics have their own problems as well. [link\|http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=38ig1fgo1wjos?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Japan+Airlines+Flight+123&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc03b&linktext=Japan%20Airlines%20Flight%20123\|http://www.answers.c...es%20Flight%20123] Tail strike severed all hydraulic lines leading to tail. An 802.11g local network with backup batteries/generators located throughout the plane might well have prevented this accident. Japan Airlines flight 123 (JAL123, JL123), a Boeing 747-100SR-46, JA8119, crashed into the ridge of Mount Takamagahara in Gunma Prefecture, Japan (about 100 km from Tokyo), on August 12, 1985. The crash site, near Mount Osutaka, was named Osutakano-O'ne (Osutaka Ridge). It was the worst single-aircraft disaster in history, with all 15 crew members dead, and 505 out of 509 passengers dead (including the famous singer Kyu Sakamoto) for a total of 520 deaths. There were four survivors, all passengers, though one of the survivors was an off-duty JAL stewardess. ... The cause of the crash according to the offical report published by the Japanese Aircraft and Railway Accidents Investigation Commission, is as follows: 1. The aircraft was involved in a tailstrike incident at Itami airport on June 2, 1978, which damaged the aircraft's rear bulkhead. 2. The subsequent repair performed by Boeing was flawed. Boeing's procedures called for a doubler plate with two rows of rivets to cover up the damaged bulkhead, but the engineers fixing the aircraft used two doubler plates with only one row of rivets. This reduced the part's resistance to metal fatigue by 70%. 3. When the bulkhead gave way, it ruptured the lines of all four hydraulic systems. With the aircraft's control surfaces disabled, the aircraft was uncontrollable. Or there is [link\|http://www.airdisaster.com/eyewitness/ua232.shtml\|http://www.airdisast...tness/ua232.shtml] Catastrophic rotor failure in tail engine severs all hydraulic lines to tail control surfaces. Same problem. Perhaps fly by wireless is really the way to go here. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #217,325 by admin 8/3/05 7:34:07 PM Reply	Interesting. Now so long as they don't put Windows on the internal network... Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #217,328 by drewk 8/3/05 7:56:51 PM Reply	Problem is digital failure is ... well, digital A mechanical system can fail somewhat, and a human pilot can potentially work around the problem. If FBW shuts down, you've got almost no options. And if the current conditions are outside the design parameters, the system may react inappropriately. And even if the pilot does recognize the problem, the system won't let him correct it. True, it's probably safer on average, but the feeling of insecurity is comparable to people who don't like flying. Flying is safer than driving, but if the plane fails you're fucked. FBW may be safer than FBM, but if the system fails ... === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #217,330 by a6l6e6x 8/3/05 8:08:28 PM Reply	When it's accepted on automobiles, I'll be a believer. Alex The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #217,334 by bionerd 8/3/05 8:47:10 PM Reply	United 232 That was a bad one. Passengers walked out of that cornfield and left the scene. UA had a hell of a time reconciling the manifest and trying to find everyone. Did you know you have a better chance surviving a crash in a window seat? You're less likely to get knocked out or immobilized by items falling out of the overhead bins. That always sticks in my mind. That, and the fact that they can identify me by the serial numbers on the pins I have in my knee because, chances are, if I go down I'm either gonna be burnt to a crisp or fragmented into thousands of pieces. What a fun job I have. :-/ Do regular people think about these things?
Post #217,338 by inthane-chan 8/3/05 9:04:37 PM Reply	Probably not. But I'm not regular either. I tend to wonder what the sky would look like (briefly) as the wave of ionizing radiation from a supernova smacked into the other side of the earth, for all of about five seconds before I was blasted into oblivion, or if I'd even have time to think before being incinerated in nuclear hellfire, or how painful dying from ebola is... I don't mind dying myself so much, I'm much more worried about awareness being wiped out. Note awareness != humanity in my book; I'm sure we will be superceded by our 'children' at some point. I hope they look kindly on their parents... apt-get install godlike-powers
Post #217,369 by pwhysall 8/4/05 1:30:36 AM Reply	Re: Probably not. But I'm not regular either. Eat more fibre, then. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #217,339 by a6l6e6x 8/3/05 9:10:42 PM Reply	Re: Do regular people think about these things? Occasionally. On the trip to Nova Scotia this June, my wife and I camped near Peggy's Cove. Between the campground and the village is a memorial marker to the victims and responders of the downed [link\|http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/3/newsid_2495000/2495403.stm\|Swiss Air 111]. You may recall faulty wiring was to blame. Where one sat made no difference in this case. While the memorial marker was not a destination per se, I took the opportunity to stop and see it. Now that I'm retired and there is no business travel I'm always flying with my wife. While she's getting better, take-offs are a "white knuckle" time for her and I am generally holding her hand. One can't help but think of the "what ifs" at that time. Alex The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #217,341 by ben_tilly 8/3/05 9:11:32 PM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #217340 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=217340\|ICLRPD] I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #217,360 by Ashton 8/3/05 11:41:26 PM Reply	Regular? Wouldn't know - I'm irregularly-irregular it seems. But I've arrived at a decent accommodation of all these transistors and their flaky-human directors. Hell, even the basic formula, F=MA from Physics 101-Remedial should give any car/cycle pilot some sobriety.. [Hah] I read the links re crashes and have read others before. Since I've been around complex techno for ~1.5 careers, and particle accelerators (with their wiring, control systems, hydraulics, elaborate vac. systems etc.) are more complex than any of these special-purpose Jumbo Spam-in-Can contraptions: I think it best to have settled your metaphysical questions, well before boarding. Not merely Probability/Statistics but all the human errors of inattention will be coming together quite beyond anyone's wishful 'algorithm for success'. You cannot "improve your personal chances" IMhO - that IS pixie dust. We Know! that 'problems' are a function of n! in complex assemblages.. (n-factorial; for the non arithmetical: 6!= 6x5x4x3x2 = that kinda thing. BIG numbers fast) Yet, I marvelled at seeing/keeping an entire accelerator complex running more than an entire week, 24/7 -- with just the ~10min checks inside, about every 4-6 hours; the 'running' continued All that time - only the particle beam was turned off, periodically. I'd have bet against this performance.. and lost. (Mondo main accelerator magnet-ring plus a heavy-ion Linac 'injector' located up a hill - the two never were planned to be connected, hence a special beamline down that hill - had to work all this time, too.) So I keep that which I Witnessed in mind, and don't worry about these planes. (Though I will still despise their handling of Moi as crammed-in cargo, natch.) Knowing it's a crap shoot is actually a relief! from imagining any need to personally 'Check things', y'know? That's my own 'solution' to the jelloware's constant auto-imaginings, Ashton Now, for those who enjoy Worrying - think about all those nuclear missiles still. on. 24/7. Ready. Alert. despite .. the so evident Absence-of-Any SANE 'need' whatsoever.
Post #217,404 by Another Scott 8/4/05 8:19:13 AM Reply	I recently found out that my FIL worked out there. He may have even been a predecessor of yours on a system. Physical Review Volume 75, Number 9, May 1, 1949, pp. 1456-1471 Proceedings of the American Physical Society Minutes of the Meeting at the University of California, At Berkeley, California February 3-5, 1949 [...] H11. Radiation Field of the 184-Cyclotron.* W.K. Benson, Jr., R.L. Mather, B.J. Mover, and Joseph Yater, University of California, Berkeley - The distribution and intensity of the radiation field outside the shielding of the 184" cyclotron have been studied with various types of detectors. Three-dimensional surveys were made with proton recoil counter, calibrated slow neutron counter, and an ion chamber so constructed as to read approximately the "roentgen equivalent physical" dosage rate. Average values at normal areas of habitation are: 60 slow neutrons cm^-2 sec.^-1, 0.5 milli-rep/hr., and a fast neutron flux about an order of magnitude below tolerance. Determination of the actual value for fast neutron flux depends on energy distribution assumed. Studies of this are in progress. Calibrated indium foil measurements of slow neutron flux as a function of depth in the 10-ft. concrete shielding indicate, apart from transition and boundary effects, an attenuation with a half-value thickness of 7 to 8 inches, and a value at the outside surface in agreement with that mentioned above. * This work was done under the auspices of the AEC. Joe enjoyed his time out there very much. He got his Masters at Cal. Did you work on the same system? (I'd imagine not - when I was at Chicago they had a lab building that was still called the Cyclotron even though it had been removed years before.) Joe's prose could be pretty flowery at times too. Hmmmmmm. The [link\|http://aries.mos.org/sixdegrees/\|Six Degrees] of Ashton B.? :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #217,480 by Ashton 8/4/05 1:52:05 PM Reply	{chortle} Gawd.. Six Degrees ==> Someone here! has been around ShrubRove, somewhere somehow :( {icky} Cyclotron pretty long-tooth by my tenure; not useful for the project mentioned: The Bevatron was a circle-with-straight-sections; 50' radius of the arcs, for perspective. Don't recall encountering the above folk, but Nobelists (and their groups, grad-students doing most of the work, natch) were as thick as Repos at a merger in the Caymans, chaired by ol' Chain-saw whatsisname. The Super-Hilac produced many (most?) of the Trans-Uranic additions to the Periodic Chart (Thanks! Mendeleev) - many with Al Ghiorso's name on them. (Got a Roosian note from him at the time of Apollo-Soyuz linkup / with new Rooski stamp First-Day Cover! commemorating that event.) Hooking the two together (ie using the heavy-ion capabilities of the HILAC as 'injector' for the 2.2 GeV/c Bevatron) became both thinkable and techno- practical in early '70s, despite their physical separation (including significant elevation! differences). PDPs were arriving, to accommodate the pulsing of (beam optics) quadrupole fields, with requisite accuracy. Then too, the first synchrotron guide field ever to be minicomputer controlled - was the Bevatron, via PDP-8 (Thanks! Don Evans et al). Put 'em together and create YAN acronym: the Bevalac. (One MAD Party when the first beam made it all the way to full energy! - Glenn Seaborg + cast of hundreds vas dere: I too - in my mess-dress ex-AF uniform + Mad Hatter hat.) Got a great pic, too... Fun stuff (and for moi, Trebly-so, for there being no marketing ergo lying, nor a 'product' to sell). I Love wissenschaffts; the antithesis of bizness fuckwittery. As Sigourney said so eloquently, Lucky.. lucky.. lucky.. Physics Lives homo-sap annihilates, at the drop-of-a-hat
Post #217,486 by Another Scott 8/4/05 2:03:52 PM Reply	Thanks. Is this your old haunting ground? [link\|http://maps.google.com/maps?q=lawrence+berkeley+laboratory,+berkeley+california&ll=37.876979,-122.250034&spn=0.003677,0.007135&t=h&num=10&start=0&hl=en\|Google Maps]. The one with the brown roof (upper left) or the one with the, um, nipple, on the lower right? I think Joe also did some work at SLAC, but I haven't been able to document that yet. I've little doubt that it was all before your time - he went East in the '50s. Cheers, Scott.
Post #217,499 by Ashton 8/4/05 2:57:52 PM Reply	{snerfl} WOW! - damn near down to the {ghost of my} Citro\ufffdn in the tiny parking lot. Amazing the techno- which we now {yawn} not-even-Notice, what with instant satiation. Jaded, We (when not being insufferable, too). Eerie ... those road names and to know the bodies that go with them all. ('Course I'ze got a whole town: Ashton-under-Lyne IIRC ;-) Yup, brown roof er Brown-roof :-0 Grand Vista of entire SF Bay Area, 3 bridges - from atop that roof! (Where there were vents for stuff like Liq. Hydrogen targets n'such) Would occasionally have the Shrammsberg and a goodie-basket from Narsai's *** up there. Once with SO. Lovely.. But it's dead, Jim. Bevatron bought It (or rather - could no longer pay-for It) in '93. No more Medical Cave for heavy-ion irradiation of tumored-folk: of the unique precision whereby [Bragg Peak] one could peel an orange, without harming either the inner pulp or the outer skin. Priorities. You could build a new brewery or stadium for .. Thanks for the mammary (Oh - that tit-thingie appears to be atop the 88" cyclotron) Maybe - by now - a surveillance camera kiosk for Fatherland Security? - 88" a much later, cleverer machine than the hoary First Big 'accelerator': the 184" Cyclotron. Not sure even, if that building still stands. Ernest Orlando Lawrence pretty much started the rush (with acolyte Livingston et al spreading physics-fever even to the Rust Belt) etc. [There's yer one-line history of particle accelerators in the world]
Post #217,516 by boxley 8/4/05 3:23:32 PM Reply	ad some hair to this picture, slim down the jawline [link\|http://photos.olson-systems.com/displayimage.php?album=14&pos=0\|http://photos.olson-...hp?album=14&pos=0] gentleman in question actually assisted in building the first livermore computer, thanx, bill Just call me Mr. Lynch \\ Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #217,393 by boxley 8/4/05 7:39:24 AM Reply	not as much fun as picturing ground zero nuclear what does one see before one vaporizes? On plane crashes sit in the middle window over the wings. thanx, bill Just call me Mr. Lynch \\ Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #217,326 by imqwerky 8/3/05 7:38:12 PM Reply	Doesn't FBW mean Fcked beyond words? Just askin' :-D Peace, Amy Illegitimi non corborundum.*
Post #217,411 by jb4 8/4/05 9:30:11 AM Reply	FBW == Fly By Wire. HTH! jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #217,421 by imqwerky 8/4/05 10:46:35 AM Reply	I know... :-D I was making a joke! Ever heard the word "double entendre"? Christian, where are you? LOL! Peace, Amy Illegitimi non corborundum.
Post #217,425 by Another Scott 8/4/05 10:51:58 AM Reply	Let's examine the entrails a little more. HTH! is a CRC-ism. CRC is often quite literal in his posting, but sometimes wryly humorous in his one-liner Subjects. I think jb4 was making a funneh as well. Cheers, Scott.
Post #217,427 by imqwerky 8/4/05 10:53:24 AM 8/4/05 10:54:47 AM Reply	I stand, er, sit corrected! :-P Illegitimi non corborundum. Edited by imqwerky Aug. 4, 2005, 10:54:47 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #217,451 by mmoffitt 8/4/05 11:59:25 AM Reply	It's mostly a philosophical thing with me. </smirk> What Todd said is true. Airliners are indeed complex to the point where humans almost can't fly them. And w/out fly-by-wire our Air Force would look quite a bit different (and be a helluva lot more dangerous for our Air Force pilots) than it does today. My philosophical problem with FBW is this: It seems to me that when a pilot kicks a rudder pedal, turns, pulls or pushes on the yoke (or stick) a control surface should move. With FBW that isn't the case. And Airbus does NOT let you turn off FBW. Consider what happened to the airliner where -3.4 * 1,000 ft/min descent was "keyed" in instead of -3.4 deg down trim. They're in the clouds at 5,500 feet when this starts. They break through the clouds at around 2,000 feet and see the ground coming up fast. Both pilots pull back on the sticks and ... nothing happens. Why? Because the computer decided that was too much control input and "smoothed out" the nose up "request" the pilots made. Result? A nice rounded controlled flight into terrain killing everyone aboard. While it is true that the pilots actions in this case might have overstressed the airframe and resulted in a crash anyway, it is equally true that FBW took away the only chance the pilots had of correcting their "data entry" error and FBW directly caused that aircraft to make a hole in the ground. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #217,459 by tuberculosis 8/4/05 12:36:31 PM Reply	I think this argues for better FBW actually We have the same issue with boats these days BTW. You can buy autopilots of all levels of sophistication from purely mechanical windvanes to fully networked systems that have access to chart database, radar, throttle, depth sounder, tide tables, etc. Such systems allow you to punch up a destination and the boat will simply go there, avoiding obstacles and traffic, compensating for currents, and so forth. In the past, one would hear occasionally about the vessel that ran aground full speed ahead because the autopilot was set to hold some heading, but it didn't have input from the depth sounder and didn't have control over the trottle anyhow. There are only two fixes, greater vigilance (which humans suck at), or better system integration. Why did the autopilot silently accept commands that a basic simulation with topographical data would clearly show would kill the airplane? Obviously, a higher level of sophistication is called for. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #217,469 by Another Scott 8/4/05 1:02:37 PM Reply	I agree. Immature control systems can only get better through increased use. As Burt Rutan [link\|http://www.space.com/news/050420_faa_hearing.html\|said]: \ufffdThe airline experience has shown us that it is not just technology that provides safety but the maturity that comes from a high-level of flight activity,\ufffd Rutan said. Ideally the control algorithms would be based on the knowledge of the plane designers, the world's cartographers, the best knowledge of the atmosphere, and decades of man-years of pilot experience. That stuff doesn't come together fully formed like [link\|http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/botticelli/venus/\|Botticelli's Venus]. It's an iterative process that takes time. There are plusses-and-minuses in being able to turn off FBW, or letting the pilot have too much control too. [link\|http://www.aviationexplorer.com/airbus_accidents.htm\|Here's] a list of Airbus accidents: 22 March 1994; Russian International Airways A310; near Novokuznetsk, Russia: Lost control and crashed after the captain had allowed at least one child to manipulate the flight controls. All 12 crew and 63 passengers were killed. :-/ Many of us probably remember the Controlled Flight Into Terrain (CFIT) in the Everglades of Eastern [link\|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Airlines_Flight_401\|Flight 401]. Though in that case it sounds like there was, again, a control ambiguity issue, I don't think that argues against autopilots, for example. Cheers, Scott.
Post #217,495 by mmoffitt 8/4/05 2:48:30 PM Reply	Say what? The solution is bloatware? You cannot "code" for every possible thing that can happen in the air. To try is folly at best, but I'll grant it will make a few very wealthy. Computers are NOT the solution to everything. You want to put all that crap on an aircraft - fine. But make an "off" switch available so that when a situation arises that the vaunted programmers didn't think of you at least give the trained pilot (and his passengers) a chance to fly the airplane that he is, after all, the pilot in command of. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #217,690 by jb4 8/5/05 10:16:25 AM Reply	What "trained pilot"? Dude, don't you know that the whole point of this exercise is to remove the "trained pilot" from the equation. Remember Burns First Law of the Corporation: Skill is the enemy of Management Corporations will do anything to drive skill from their workforce. Skill costs, and the less skill that is required by a corporation to produce whatever it is that it produces (assuming, of course that it produces anything), the more there is for the honchos' collective Golden Parachutes. FBW is just another step toward that goal. Now, the flying public would never allow an unmanned cockpit, but a single Electrical Technician sitting up front, wearing something resembling a pilot's uniform whose job is simply to monitor the blinking lights costs a whole lot less than three dues-paying members of the Brotherhood of Airline Pilots (or whatever their union is called these days). jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #217,721 by mmoffitt 8/5/05 1:23:57 PM Reply	Doh! </me slaps self on forehead> Of course, what was I thinking? And it's ALPA (AirLine Pilots Association) btw ;0) bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #217,731 by tuberculosis 8/5/05 2:12:57 PM Reply	My guess is that the "trained pilot" can't fly the airplane on his own anyhow. The key problem is that the system is now mapping conventional control inputs to very unconventional control outputs and the pilots don't have that mapping in their training at all. The only point of still having yoke, wheel, and rudder pedals is to allow the pilots to instruct the plane to modify roll pitch and yaw, but how the airplane actually implements those commands maybe isn't completely analagous to how the controls traditionally work. So my guess is the "off" switch will likely put the pilot in a situation he can't cope with. In the case you sited, I'd guess that the aggresive response probably would have either whipstalled the plane, thrown it into uncontrollable oscillations, or overstressed the airframe and produced catastrophic failure. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #217,732 by boxley 8/5/05 2:14:20 PM Reply	in an f16 turn off the computer it rolls upside down into an uncontrolled dive into the dirt. thanx, bill Just call me Mr. Lynch \\ Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #217,734 by tuberculosis 8/5/05 2:16:55 PM Reply	You're so much more succinct that I am. But that was basically my point. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #217,752 by mmoffitt 8/5/05 3:00:31 PM Reply	Then why do Boeing FBW aircraft all have "off" switches? Including the 777? And, you basically restated a part of my post. I agree that pushing back both yokes might have caused structural failure. And to be sure, the flaky Airbus design has some big time issues (recall the tail falling off when the pilot used opposite rudder to conteract an encounter with wake turbulence). But, in the case I cited, smoothing the round out into the ground was hardly a better solution, wouldn't you agree? bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #217,755 by Andrew Grygus 8/5/05 3:08:29 PM Reply	Probably the pilots demanded them. Kinda hard to give up that control, you know, even if it's getting beyond you. A test pilot for the first model of the F4 turned off the automatic controls during high speed flight. One engine climbed about 1000 feet higher before flame-out, the other went somewhere else, and the rest was shreds. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #217,756 by mmoffitt 8/5/05 3:13:16 PM Reply	I always like this one. You've never been lost until you've been lost at Mach 3. (Attributed to SR-71 test pilot Paul Crickmore) bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #217,767 by jb4 8/5/05 4:11:17 PM Reply	But at Mach 3, you'll get found REAL fast.... Remember, you're never really lost, you're just temporarily disoriented.... jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #217,782 by mmoffitt 8/5/05 5:31:11 PM Reply	Or 3 states away from where you're supposed to be. ;0) bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #217,766 by Ashton 8/5/05 4:10:04 PM Reply	As goes chess ---> so goes 'piloting'___[???] (new thread) Created as new thread #217765 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=217765\|As goes chess ---> so goes 'piloting'___[???]] Have a nice flight.. flight.. fl But don't forget to stop at the Airporte Shoppe pre-flight - that way MeisterKard is Sure to get paid for the Rolex.
Post #217,790 by tonytib 8/5/05 5:55:34 PM Reply	IIRC, depends on aircraft design normal design with FBW -- no problem flying manually. "relaxed stability design" with FBW (maybe F-16 was first, I'm not sure) -- flying is possible but very difficult with it off "inherently unstable design" (probably includes latest US fighters F-22, JSF) -- cannot fly without FBW. But the more unstable design can, IIRC, improve performance and allow dog fighting maneuvers that are simply impossible with conventional aircraft. I'm not sure what, if any, the benefits of relaxed/no stability are for airliners. I doubt any airliners are inherently unstable yet (let the USAF/USN test for a decade first, I'd hope). Tony Who used to know more about this stuff
Post #217,864 by CRConrad 8/6/05 6:09:45 PM Reply	Actually, it won't be the USAF/USN that are the first to... ...reach a decade of tests: The Swedish, Czech, Hungarian, and South African air forces will beat them to it, since they're either already using or about to take into use the world's first inherently unstable fighter plane in production -- the [link\|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_Gripen\|SAAB Gripen]. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #218,091 by drewk 8/8/05 9:32:53 AM Reply	Guess the F117 doesn't count? === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #218,122 by pwhysall 8/8/05 2:03:41 PM Reply	Which first flew in 1977. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #218,215 by CRConrad 8/8/05 5:59:41 PM Reply	Live and learn. I only knew it was butt-ugly. ;-)
Post #217,271 by bepatient 8/3/05 3:11:30 PM Reply	Very possible to have lunch in Paris and then again in New York. Except the food on the fligh was so good that you weren't hungry in NY. Flying Concorde is an experience I will never forget. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #217,277 by mmoffitt 8/3/05 3:35:35 PM Reply	OT: Hey Beep. Your company uses on-demand doesn't it? If so, which aircraft do you usually fly? What's the read in the halls of bidness concerning SATS? bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #217,295 by bepatient 8/3/05 4:45:51 PM Reply	Re: OT: Hey Beep. Not entirely familiar with the program. Can't really answer. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #217,297 by mmoffitt 8/3/05 4:53:39 PM Reply	K. Thanks. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #217,314 by bepatient 8/3/05 6:16:02 PM Reply	Got any links? Will follow up. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #217,454 by mmoffitt 8/4/05 12:05:04 PM Reply	Here's a couple. The hub and spoke system consisting of a handful of major air carriers servicing only the largest of the country\ufffds airports is at or near saturation. Travel delays are costing the US economy hundreds of millions of dollars in lost time and revenue. To address this problem, NASA has conceived of the Small Aircraft Transportation System (SATS). This system is envisioned to use a combination of technologies in an attempt to create a set of small (4 \ufffd 10 passenger) aircraft and associated systems capable of providing efficient, economical air travel to the nation\ufffds smaller, under-utilized airports. [link\|http://www.airborneinternet.com/Docs/Zernic&Schmidt.htm\|http://www.airbornei...ernic&Schmidt.htm] [link\|http://ncam-sats.org/\|http://ncam-sats.org/] [link\|http://sats.larc.nasa.gov/overview_sats.html\|http://sats.larc.nas...verview_sats.html] I don't know, the whole idea of an "airborne internet" directing traffic is a little frightening to me ;0) Was just wondering what the potential passenger base thought. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #217,502 by bepatient 8/4/05 3:01:19 PM Reply	I know there's support for this However, its so far from realization that its not being counted on in any planning. There's more interest in ensuring FAA gets major airport facilities better outfitted for radar and flight control systems. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #217,549 by mmoffitt 8/4/05 5:13:16 PM Reply	I don't think its that far off. The whole shooting match yes. But there is movement even here in Indiana. GA is dying and we're losing small airports at the rate of just over 1 per week. SATS is viewed by a significant number of folks as the best way to save small airports. Even at our little country airport SATS people came to an Aviation Board meeting for a presentation. But what do I know? To demonstrate how little I know about bidness-think, on 9/11/2001 I was a student pilot (I was in the air when it happened and had to literally be flagged down because the airplane I was in had the radio out for repairs) I thought sure the Air Taxi business would take off. I didn't think bidness men wanted to spend 4 hours in an airport for a 3 hour flight (2 hours pre-board on both ends). Clearly, that didn't happen. I'd love to see SATS take off because I have a vested interest in aviation. Thanks for your perspective. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #217,289 by rcareaga 8/3/05 4:10:44 PM Reply	Do tell! Flying Concorde is an experience I will never forget. Hot damn, no. And how, boyo, did you happen to swing that? cordially, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #217,291 by mmoffitt 8/3/05 4:15:22 PM Reply	Dunno about him, but a girl I worked with did it this way. The last or next to last year it flew you could by a ticket for $6,000. You flew across from FWA, then boarded the QE II for the return trip to NY (I think) and a return flight back to FWA. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #217,293 by bepatient 8/3/05 4:29:48 PM Reply	Biz trip as guest of Air France to Paris and return. Business Class over and Concorde return. Sat in the row behind Yves St Laurent and his crew. The Concorde piece was upgrade...I paid Business Class rate. One of my responsilities is managing the purchase of and organization of corporate travel programs, including relationships with suppliers (airlines, hotels, car rental). Air France was a major player for me at my former gig. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]

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