How cloying is that?

7/15/05 5:34:57 AM

7/18/05 2:29:21 PM

Ooh! Atheism!

This is the Flame forum. This is about the denigrating the biblical god and I'm allowed to be rude. Joy!

The god of the bible shows his colours with his first interaction with the first man and woman, where he tells them not to eat from the tree of good and evil. It's a form of oppression to deny knowledge and understanding. Children disavow parents for less. When they do eat from the tree of good and evil, they become aware that they're naked. So, before, they had the self awareness of toddlers.

This is curious when combined with the other command to fill the earth and rule over the animals. You wouldn't put a toddler in charge of the family dog, let alone an ecosystem. Surely, an entity that can design and build a universe must have known this wouldn't work? And that a solution was to have the two people eat from a conveniently placed tree? So, if mankind followed the fruit eating command, they'd multiply and spectacularly fail the ecology command. But they'd have enough intelligence to realise the only way to obey and succeed at the latter command was acquire knowledge and understanding, breaking the former. Mankind would be stuck with a dilemma and lacking the wisdom for dealing with them. And an infant mentality fearful of disappointing the parent.

This god entity set this up deliberately. It's the same level of cruelty as pulling wings off flies. What a wanker! And this is his own PR. He can't be bothered to hide it and he still expects us to love him. Take comfort from his protection? We need protection from him! At least satan did us a favour and broke this gag before mankind felt its effect. So what does god do, knowing serpents are dumb animals and it was the work of his errant subordinate? Removes the legs from serpents. More pulling wings of flies. Oh satan, tell me more of our father so I can stay away from him!

It's incredible that most medieval men never questioned the story of adam and eve. Compulsory (and secular) education most be more important than I thought.

Matthew Greet

Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.

Edited by warmachine July 18, 2005, 02:29:21 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #214,940

by Ashton

7/15/05 6:34:32 AM

You're just being a spoilsport.

The trouble with analysis of parables and metaphors and stuff is - you can't, especially so - when they are all inconsistent and absurd, by design of the Priest-class of work-shirkers.

As Jos Campbell drolly reported after a few decades of delving, taking notes - it's amazing the number of cultures who have come up with,

Snake Did It!
(with varying and colorful imaginations about what It was)

The entire "fruit of the tree of knowledge" cha cha simile for - the "world of duality", the consequent mindset of Yes/No Good/Evil, merely <-opposes-> the concept of unity (~~ 'creator' and creation are One). Hard to get funds to build cathedrals to That fork, though. No robes either; have to labor for that gruel.

[And then.. Oh Gawd - along comes $#%^& Geo Boole with some cute symbols and makes Yes/No into a real Cash Industry! and.. and..]

And it must follow as the night the gzornenplatz - through the magic of synonyms and definitions with no useful referent whatsoever: the chartered accountant asks,
"but then Who created the Creator-Guy?"
[This. It. Has. Got. Balls ???]

and Then: we are off to the races and the wars between them, along with the guilt, the fear-thus-groveling; the Preaching about tips for going to the head of the line; ahead of those heretics whom ya gets to watch bein tormented and stuff. Joy!

Keeps millions on or off the streets. Love. It.
(especially with Peter Sellers as Chauncey (the) Gardener; he likes to watch.)

I've got it: Let's make a movie! .. a rilly Violent One with chariot races and lots of sex.

Anything beats listening to 3.5 more years of even weirder local fantasies and the mouthings of our present pipsqueak-Jesus-in-a-Stetson..

Post #214,997

by jb4

7/15/05 12:09:09 PM

ICLRPD (of sorts)

This god entity set this up deliberately.[...] What a wanker!

However, this probably needs to stay in this forum...could be toxic to a wider audience.

jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

Post #215,829

7/20/05 6:31:17 PM

Toxic meme?

That makes me think of an RPG supplement titled 'Transhuman Space: Toxic Memes'. I don't think the idea that the biblical god is a wanker according to his own PR should be contained. I say this meme could liberate the gullible out there, not destroy them. Let's see the countervailing ideas. Let's see this god appear on daytime TV explaining why ignorance and torture are good for us.

Post #215,937

by jb4

7/21/05 3:08:41 PM

Much rather see Him on Meet the Press...

(For you Brits and other non-colonials, "Meet the Press" is a Sunday talking heads show where Big High Muckymucks sit across the table from somebody who is ostensibly a Journalist, and said Journalist tosses softball questions allowing said Muckymuck to completely ignore those questions and instead pontificate on His Very Important Thoughts on Nothing Important, or start laying the groundwork for Muckymuck's next election campaign. I hope that clears things up a bit.)

Post #215,992

by Ashton

7/21/05 7:50:23 PM

Naaah.. they'uns jes Love___the George Burns \ufffd\ufffdolksy model.

Post #216,009

by Arkadiy

7/21/05 9:50:18 PM

I just wonder where you learned your theology

Sounds like about the same kind of institution that [link|http://volokh.powerblogs.com/archives/archive_2004_11_00.shtml#1099763167|this] guy learned his Theory of Evolution:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The Races of Man. \ufffd At the present time there exist upon the earth five races or varieties of man, each very different from the other in instincts, social customs, and, to an extent, in structure. These are the Ethiopian or negro type, originating in Africa; the Malay or brown race, from the islands of the Pacific; The American Indian; the Mongolian or yellow race, including the natives of China, Japan, and the Eskimos; and finally, the highest type of all, the caucasians, represented by the civilized white inhabitants of Europe and America.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Improvement of Man. \ufffd If the stock of domesticated animals can be improved, it is not unfair to ask if the health and vigor of the future generations of men and women on the earth might not be improved by applying to them the laws of selection. This improvement of the future race has a number of factors in which we as individuals may play a part. These are personal hygiene, selection of healthy mates, and the betterment of the environment.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

and so on.

------

179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

Post #216,493

7/26/05 11:26:17 AM

What am I getting wrong, then?

Post #217,176

by Arkadiy

8/3/05 7:47:58 AM

Re: What am I getting wrong, then?

Here goes...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The god of the bible shows his colours with his first interaction with the first man and woman, where he tells them not to eat from the tree of good and evil. It's a form of oppression to deny knowledge and understanding. Children disavow parents for less. When they do eat from the tree of good and evil, they become aware that they're naked. So, before, they had the self awareness of toddlers.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

This situation is a lot deeper than what you describe. The Tree of Knowledge gave the _real_ knowledge. Not "knowing", "understanding", "appreciation" or "grocking". The kind of knowldge that rape victim has about sex. Like "experience", but infinitely more so. Returning to your "Children disavow parents for less", it's like turning 7-yo loose on a SM web site. But, again, infinitely more so. It's hard to imagine someone who is completely unaware and incapable of evil. But, try anyway. And then think of how she will feel when she realised she just killed someone. In the most sadistic and grisly way imaginable.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is curious when combined with the other command to fill the earth and rule over the animals. You wouldn't put a toddler in charge of the family dog, let alone an ecosystem. Surely, an entity that can design and build a universe must have known this wouldn't work? And that a solution was to have the two people eat from a conveniently placed tree? So, if mankind followed the fruit eating command, they'd multiply and spectacularly fail the ecology command. But they'd have enough intelligence to realise the only way to obey and succeed at the latter command was acquire knowledge and understanding, breaking the former. Mankind would be stuck with a dilemma and lacking the wisdom for dealing with them. And an infant mentality fearful of disappointing the parent.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Again, a huge simplification. Nowadays it seems obvious that in order to accomplish something (anything) serious one must have a goodly understanding of evil, and be capable of evil him/hersels (just ask broomberg :) ). But it does not need to be the case. Certainly it must not be the case in the perfect world.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This god entity set this up deliberately. It's the same level of cruelty as pulling wings off flies. What a wanker! And this is his own PR. He can't be bothered to hide it and he still expects us to love him. Take comfort from his protection? We need protection from him! At least satan did us a favour and broke this gag before mankind felt its effect. So what does god do, knowing serpents are dumb animals and it was the work of his errant subordinate? Removes the legs from serpents. More pulling wings of flies. Oh satan, tell me more of our father so I can stay away from him!
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

This is the hardest one. I am not sure I can do it justice. You need to consult a real specialst for this (and a Reform Rabbi or a Lesbian Episcopalian Priest are most likely not qualified). My understading is that God had to do things in a certain way if he was to produce real people and not string puppets. God could have created us in such a way that we would still be in Eden. But then we would not be "us". That goes to the concept of "hiding", tsimtsim. The Omnipresent and Omnipotent God created a piece of existace in which his presence and powers are utterly hidden. This, by itself, is the biggest possible miracle. Think about it. Suppose you play God with some microscopic people you yourself created. You can look everywhere in their world, and you can do anything to it. But, you are not, by your very nature, bound to _always_ look everywhere in their world, and you are not, by your very nature, bound to _make_happen_ everything that happens in that world. You can look away. You can go have lunch. Your creations will go on living without you.
The nature of God as it's understood by Jews and Christians(I think) is such that it's impossible for Him to look away. He _always_ knows what his creations are doing and he, personally, moves them all. Except you can't say "impossible" and "God" in one sentence. He managed, somehow, to create free will. He managed to create a stone He cannot lift. The stone is now lifting itself. If, in the process, the stone is suffering, well, the question is, is the free will worth it? Is the freedom to say "God does not exist" worth it? (parenthetically, I have to note that the freedom to say "God does not exist" is worth squat. It reminds me of the Russian joke: an American reporter tells a Russian one: "We have freedom of expression - I can shout 'Reagan is an asshole' in the street, and nothing bad will happen to me". To which the Russian reporter answers: "We have freedom of expression too. I, too can shout 'Reagan is an asshole' all I want'")

Look, if you want to understand theology, go talk to a real priest/rabbi. I, I just went to some courses. But don't behave like you know when you only know things second hands, from people who hate them.

------

179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

Post #217,180

8/3/05 9:18:56 AM

Lame excuses

Having re-read the story of Adam and Eve, I still can't find anything that suggests the tree of knowledge gave deep knowledge and experience. Why should we assume this when it is named the 'tree of knowledge of good and evil', not the 'tree of total knowledge'? The idea of deep knowledge strikes me as a fabrication to cover a flaw. As said before, the couple became aware that they were naked. Toddlers know they're naked but aren't aware of what it means. Again, I assert that the tree of knowledge gave self-awareness and understanding, based on the passage "Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked".

Also, modesty is cultural and two lovers who have always been naked probably wouldn't care. This suggests a human author of ancient times describing a fictional event, not a real one.

You seem to be advocating that this god was right to deny knowledge. What knowledge is so henious that mankind must be spared from it? Men must have free will but must be protected like children? Men must be protected from knowledge of evil, even though free will means the ability to invent and choose evil?

Next, you say that knowledge was unnecessary to rule the planet. For toddlers to rule something without it breaking, it essentially has to look after itself. However, the passage "fill the earth and subdue it" and "have dominion over" suggests positive, planned action. Even if the ecosystem could withstand mistakes, toddlers with the ability to reproduce is going to lead to overpopulation problems. Unless limited food is being used to solve that, which means mankind has to have the knowledge and understanding to manage finite resources. Population management or resource management: not a job for people who aren't even aware they're naked. Unless mankind is denied free will, after all.

This god entity had to set it up to create free will. Couldn't have just given them the fruit and a less utopian world to exercise their free will? Couldn't have just left out the retrofitted suffering and asked for the occasional hug? The guy can create a really amazing Universe and this is the only plan he could come up with? Isn't someone just making pathetic excuses to cover flaws in some superstition?

Post #217,186

by imric

8/3/05 9:50:06 AM

"I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, day one."

ROFL.

[link|http://www.runningworks.com|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #217,212

8/3/05 11:31:03 AM

Well, yes!

This god entity is supposed to omniscient, omnipresent and ever-loving yet I find strange inconsistencies and flaws in his story. If he wants me to adopt him as my guardian and role model, his sales pitch has to do a lot better than that.

Time to find a better illusion.

Post #217,626

by Ashton

8/5/05 4:44:29 AM

Love. It._____but Point of Order flag, anyway -

Damn.. Again!
from InfoWorld --> ezbored --> Gawd Knoze where,
the same pointless exercise of Rutabagas/Aardvarks being hawked by fruit merchants. As-If...
These sordid repetitions are like Groundhog Day for naughty metaphysicians who flunked English (never mind Sanskrit) and think some primitive 'logic' will make up for that -

Each inventing his-own comfy set of Attributes to Assign to! the "the Character! of" the {Unknowable} / {The Absolute!) / or-by-any-other handle. This Idea thrown into a mish-mosh of homo-sap character-flaws writ Large and randomly, sprinkled to taste. And no MSG.

Nor is this about 'theology' (a sub-category of metaphysics, last I heard). It is not even about 'religion' (either Corporate or hand-crafted) - but about something oblique and too-scattered to even have a separate name. The dance may focus dimly upon one of countless baskets called 'Christianity' -- an idea about as cohesive as "The American People" -- but only in some contest maybe, to write the most imaginitive definitions? and get on Alex Trebek's Religion Bee.

No-longer-fascinating to observe a (self-described) 'literalist, linear thinker' attempting to counter a proposition set-forth; one based upon a Clear-metaphor about Unity <-and-> a World of Duality - yet which is being not-even-Noticed, while something-else is minutely-deconstructed, as if this metaphor were some (bloody- yes) literal History!

I bow before the opportunities within such rich loam, for an entire series in Cinerama, (DVD after Week II tanks):

Featuring Charlatan Heston as Robed-protagonist, George Carlin as tee-shirted antagonist and Bertie R? as naked (and unashamed) agonist at the entire brew-ha-ha-ha: a matter absolutely undebatable for being conducted with Python- silly models / on entirely different scales; producing no chance -- for a metaphysical 'discussion' twixt adult entities; persons possessing authentic and shared Curiosity about these daily illusions.

ie I fling the puce gantlet of that Point of Order:
unless comprehension can be demonstrated by both combatants -- of the difference between the connotation and denotation of a (any) metaphor -- this can only be more hi-fat Fast-food for satire. Earnest mish-mosh only ever reveals just 0/0.

Butting-out,

Carrion

Or: never mind; always an option.
We don't drown sillies here; Admin is such a prig about that.

Post #217,629

8/5/05 5:57:56 AM

Yes, yes! I know most believers see the bible as metaphor.

I know most people see the stories in the bible as fiction, superstition and aging, incoherent, moral philisophy. It ought to be placed next to Lord of the Rings but too many people claim the bible is The Truth. And we know where that can lead. Yes, I know the people here aren't like that. I just have to do it.

I don't argue about connotation as that'd be an even more, long-winded deconstruction of minutae ending in a 'it doesn't mean that' flame war. Just aim for the literal meaning and come to a conclusion sometime this month.

So, please don't laugh as I refight adolescent conflicts. I use madness to stop me from going insane.

Post #217,885

by Arkadiy

8/6/05 8:45:16 PM

8/6/05 8:56:35 PM

None so blind as those who won't see

Well, you look straight atv one of better illustrations of the difference between the Knowledge from a tree and "knowledge" as we know it, and you refuse to admit it as such. Instead, you write it off as a sign of "fiction".

Consider it again please: when a man and a women who haven't had a bad thought in their whole life (and they were cretated adults, not todlers) all of a sudden feel that they should not be naked, to me it's a sign that they have been deeply transformed. They now know what can be done to a naked human. And they know that the are now capable of it themselves. Sex, the blessed way to be fruitful and multiply (and, in case you didn't know, Cain was concieved in Eden), becomes just another activity that may be used for evil. Mind you, the good side of sex is still here, but the dark side is now with them too. Please remember the rape analogy - you look at your wife and realise, for the first time, that rape is possible.

There are more signs that can tell you how deep was the change causes by the Tree of knowledge, not just in Adam and Eve but in the world. God says that the world was "good" after it was created. There was no evil in it. The evil had to be brought in from the outside. After the Fall, the evil is a part of the world. God never gets to say "good" about it again.

Again, I am not an expert. If you care to know, go talk to someone who knows. I realise that spouting comfortable nonsence in an atheist company is easier, but if you aspire to intellectual honesty, you need to go learn what the other side is saying.

Edit: oh yes, and you skipped right over my whole paragraph about the world being different and Evil being unnecessary. Please remember: Tree of Knowledge is not the full name. It was Tree of KNowledge of Good and Evil. Not all knowledge was denied. Adam already knew enough to give true names to every living thing. No, it was only the knowldge of Evil. ANd, by contrast, knowldge of Good.

As to wheteher it was necessary for free will - I don't know. I'd be hard t pressed to write a book where characters don't suffer, don't have temptations and yet obviously have free will. Try it some time. See where it takes you.

------

179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

Edited by Arkadiy Aug. 6, 2005, 08:56:35 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #217,886

by boxley

8/6/05 8:50:15 PM

I'll explain it in terms he can understand

A alien genetic scientist inserted a strand of dna into these very bright apes that would introduce guilt and evil and wanted them to thank him for his efforts.
somehow I think he would buy that.
thanx.
bill

Just call me Mr. Lynch \\

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Post #217,906

8/6/05 10:58:44 PM

Prefer a mad scientist idea

The biblical god is an ultra-tech being who throw a fit when his subjects discredited his pet theory. The garden of eden was the laboratory and mankind was dumped on the Earth because ethics prevent extermination of sentient beings.

Or there's always this idea [link|http://www.ghastlycomic.com/d/20031019.html|http://www.ghastlyco...m/d/20031019.html]

Post #217,913

by boxley

8/7/05 12:16:44 AM

that last frame......sez it all

Post #217,899

by Ashton

8/6/05 10:31:44 PM

Seems as if Core Functions ___ were outsourced.

Let us now ~~praise famous men~~ braise famous Avatars.

Dismissing all other metaphors than your fav one as, 'held by atheists' - may comfort you against daily Uncertainty, but it is more than just-intellectually dishonest flippancy. Petulance?

Then too, imagining that these 'metaphors you live by' were somehow Original 2000 years ago: just Discovered! then! and solely within this small group and its guru: that's not 'dishonest', that just betrays ignorance of the history of the world and of its many fav metaphysical tries at 'solutions' to the Mystery that anything Is.

But concluding, from both ignorance and dishonest appraisal of all that knowlege and a few chunks of wisdom as occasionally surface:

that The Truth, the whole Truth andnothingbut -- is Your Group's. (And by osmosis) Yours?

That is beyond any possibility of discussion. That's for your pulpit amongst the Convinced, who need to hear it often, ever to feel safe-enough. It also remains the stuff of guaranteed interminable planetary warfare over the Conceit of human spokespersons -- and their flocks of outsourcing-sheep - unwilling/too-lazy to do their *own* internal research.

(We wouldn't be able to discuss your 'Knowledge'/ ie meta-knowledge or your personal ideas about epiphanies within human jelloware either - for all root reasons)

Finally, one needn't call-self an 'atheist' or join a mob of such - to notice that you don't even see your fav metaphor as being entirely about the large Concepts of 'duality | unity'! .. as you ramble-off to focus upon a mere handful of the infinite consequences of ever exploring this Idea-fork. Must be that ol' Debbil's M$-grade digitalscholarship you're building-on.

None So Blind.. Indeed!

Post #217,900

8/6/05 10:37:29 PM

Intellect without capacity for evil?

So, you contend that adam and eve had the intellect, reasoning and self awareness of adults yet were incapable of evil thoughts, as well as not knowing any. They would be incapable of wanting to fulfil sexual desire when the other doesn't want to, rather than choosing not to. Neither could invent the evil of rape. The free will to choose between good and evil yet incapable of inventing evil. An ideal yet to be described by any philospher or storyteller and certainly not me. The worker's paradise of Marxism required enforcement and propaganda. Even in the fake, programmed utopia of Brave New World, Bernard invents evil by discrediting the Director of Hatcheries. Forgive me when I say intellect without capacity for evil is a daft idea.

Besides, if it was that important that mankind not know evil, why wasn't the tree better hidden or guarded? Sooner or later, someone curious will try it. Sounds like entrapment to me. Or was the retrofitted suffering and pulling legs of serpents a necessary part of creating free will?

Post #217,914

by boxley

8/7/05 12:20:16 AM

I have met intellect without the capacity for evil

in many people, Im saddened that your life has been such that you have not. Now I have also met some truly evil folks, it also seemed in some way that those folks were mentally crippled. I am convinced that capacity for true evil diminishes intellect. Most of us are a combination of both.
thanx,
bill

Post #217,935

8/7/05 5:32:22 AM

Capacity or choice

Are you sure you're not confusing capacity with choice? From the assertion that truly evil people are mentally crippled, it does not follow the capacity for true evil is crippling. Someone can have the capacity to be truly evil but choose not to be truly evil. Considering a lot of murders are committed by loved ones, I'd say the difference between capacity and choice is large.

Post #218,027

by Ashton

8/7/05 7:55:40 PM

Hey, warfarin - sometimes 'logic' Is enough!

[short form] Yup - capacity VS choice.

[funner form]
Jung was the most metaphysically ept of those legions endlessly yammerin about 'analyzin' a machine which is beyond-itself recursively Unanalyzable.
(Not that That stops any Univ from starting a Department, mind you/us)
Jung had a pretty good comprehension of Eastern scholarship through the ages.. Damn-good it seems, for any Western simplistic-inculcated drudge.

Those engrams, memes, archetypes -by anyothername- appear to be as essential to daily homo-sap machine-ops as is the h\ufffdmoglobin; anyone who claims to have 'eliminated' that er root-nature? might as well start a late-night Tee Vee Show and get paid for bloviating. 'Conquer' is about second-by-second Choice, then.

Oh and -
Ditto in Spades re all the BS everywhere, about the "character (!!), feelings, loving, hating, cajoling, Gender (!?!) and whispering-to-Moi" yada of the [Absolute] is blowing smoke at supersonic velocities.

The [Absolute] is a concept fucking Defined as
Without. Attributes. ..meaning:
'Defined' in Sanskrit itself!

(the Only language extant designed-for; 'premeditatedly'-designed for - attempting some useful communication about metaphysical ideas, among the few who ever pay much genuine Attention to such arcanery. ie Even re the unsustainable propositions: one needs to learn, eventually.. Why one Is 'unsustainable', if a chirpy Grasshopper is ever to grow-Upwards and not just bloat sideways, with more fatty cant.)

Still, most Will prefer George Burns anyway.. suck it up

I Who Be

Post #217,919

by Another Scott

8/7/05 12:44:03 AM

My $0.02 on the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. (new thread)

Created as new thread #217918 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=217918|My $0.02 on the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.]

Post #215,091

7/15/05 9:56:48 PM

Ooooh this is going to get good!

Unfortunately, what most people don't understand is that Jesus, Mohammed, the many incarnations of Buddha, etc., were _____trying_____ to teach that "God" is really the mind. Jesus had to use the patriarchal/shepherd analogies because that's what people understood in those days. Bottom line is, be excellent to each other, in the words of Bill and Ted. That is what life is all about.

And...
the power of the mind, each mind, is staggering. We have the power to hurt or heal ourselves and others. That is what prayer accomplishes. It is the focusing of that power to a specific end.

When we all come to realize our own divinity, that is when we will experience what the Bible calls the Rapture. Think about it. One Mind, One Body, One Spirit.

Whoa! (a la Keanu Reeves)

Shalom,
Amy

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Heilige Sheisse, what a ride!'"

.

Post #215,104

7/16/05 1:18:17 AM

Do you think that the Pope approves of your theology?

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #215,127

by bionerd

7/16/05 9:26:46 AM

The Pope just issued a warning about Harry Potter

What do you think?

Post #215,128

by Another Scott

7/16/05 9:46:56 AM

He may soon issue a letter of support.

He seems to be a bit muddled in some of his opinions and doesn't seem to mind contradicting himself. [link|http://clevershark.com/index.php?entry=987|E.g.]:

The problem with Ratzinger comes mostly from what he has said. His pronouncements on Islam have been all over the place and often contradictory. Similarly, the many positions he appears to have taken on secularism lead one to be confused as to where the new Pope stands on the issue -- if he criticizes Islam for mixing religion and politics, why does he then turn around and demand that Christianity be declared the cornerstone of European civilization? In the "Dominus Jesus" of 2000 he asserts that Christianity (and of course Catholicism) is the one true faith, but [link|http://www.cathnews.com/news/203/19.php|shortly thereafter he denies it]. One may well wonder where the new Pope will lead the Church's dialogue with Islam, and even whether that dialogue will continue at all.

However, it is Ratzinger's less ambivalent opinions that make him bad news for the Church. He has already condemned homosexuality as "an intrinsic moral evil", and has backed up that opinion with action that speaks of callousness and mean-spiritedness, going as far as to [link|http://www.soulforce.org/main/catholics.shtml|prohibit an American priest and nun from ministering to gays and lesbians]. He is also on the record as honestly claiming that [link|http://www.rainbownation.it/gayworld/gayworld_en.asp?Section=both&tipo=culture&subsect=homophobia&Id=8|homosexuality is a threat to Christian peoples, seeing homosexuality as a "disease" that needs an ecumenical cure (!), and that getting "converted" away from "gayness" is just like any other "conversion from evil"]. Not exactly a progressive mind at work there. Ratzinger quotes Leviticus liberally in support of those opinions. One may be left to wonder whether the new Pope will also quote liberally from Leviticus as he upholds [link|http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/Leviticus1.html|the traditions of sacrificing oxen for the Lord, selling one's daughter into slavery, purchasing slaves, not eating shellfish, murdering those who opt to work on the Sabbath, etc. because all these subjects are also covered in Leviticus]. Most interesting is the prohibited behaviour of cutting one's hair around the temples, and shaving. Most photos of Mr. Ratzinger seem to indicate that he fails to follow the teachings of Leviticus in at least that one aspect.

Also of interest is his insistence that [link|http://www.tldm.org/news6/Ratzinger.htm|those who deviate from the Church's doctrine should be denied communion]. This was done in a secret letter to US cardinals in 2004, and would seem to have been engineered expressly in order to provide a secret boot to Republican party candiates in the election that took place at that time. It seems that while Islam should be condemned for mixing politics with religion, there is no problem when this is done by a Catholic Cardinal. At least we now know that Benedict XVI is no less of a hypocrite than his predecessors.

[...]

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #215,134

7/16/05 12:37:43 PM

Oh Brother!

That's funny. The Council of US Bishops gave a thumbs up to the last Harry Potter Movie! With the blessing of dear, sweet ol' JPII.

I have some fundamentalist friends who gently warn me of what their child may and may not view whilst in our home. Of course, HP comes up. So we get into some lovely theological discussions regarding same.

I feel that it is merely the same old good v. evil. They feel that
______ ooooooh_____ good witchcraft v. bad witchcraft.... it's all from the debbil!

Peace,
Amy

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Heilige Sheisse, what a ride!'"

.

Post #215,133

7/16/05 12:26:59 PM

I don't care if the pope approves

I can choose to believe what I want. I happen to believe that organized religions are merely languages through with we express our faith. I am a cradle Catholic and I am most comfortable with Catholicism, hence, I gravitate towards the Catholic Church.

However, I am not all caught up in the Church's dogma. In the last 3 years, I feel I have become enlightened and am more of a Unitarian. I happen to like the idea of "cream-skimming" the best of all religions to create a new one. I believe that one should treat others with kindness and respect. And I should pray for my enemies, because they are in pain. That is why they are lashing out at the world.

If people would stop and actually read the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well as the Encyclicals and Papal Bulls, they would have a better understanding of the Church and know exactly how foolish a lot of people act in the name of Catholicism. (Especially the NFP'ers Puhhhhleeeezzzzzzz!!!!!)

I guess I made my point. :)

Et in terra pax,
Amy

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Heilige Sheisse, what a ride!'"

.

Post #215,182

7/16/05 11:09:18 PM

About what I guessed. :-)

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #215,187

7/17/05 12:26:19 AM

7/17/05 12:27:55 AM

do you have AIM or yahoo messenger?
email imquirky at comcast dot net

tired of static messages.

peace,
a.

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Heilige Sheisse, what a ride!'"

.

Edited by imqwerky July 17, 2005, 12:27:55 AM EDT

Expand All History

Post #215,192

7/17/05 2:54:41 AM

Replied

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #215,341

by jb4

7/18/05 11:48:39 AM

7/18/05 11:48:56 AM

Do you think she **cares** what the Pope thinks

If she does, she just renounced everything in her post!

I'm betting on "no"....

Edited by jb4 July 18, 2005, 11:48:56 AM EDT

Expand All History

Post #215,403

7/18/05 3:14:57 PM

Theoretically she should - she's Catholic

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #215,564

7/19/05 11:05:10 AM

7/19/05 11:06:23 AM

You missed the point

I know people die that believe in God. I didn't say they didn't.

The question wasn't where do you go to BE safe, it was where do you go to FEEL safe.

And I answered that.

Brenda

Edit: It was about Shasta ever being able to feel safe again.

"I see little yellow butterflies fluttering round my head and hear little happy bluebirds singing overhead....all will be just fine!"

Edited by Nightowl July 19, 2005, 11:06:23 AM EDT

Expand All History

Post #215,620

7/19/05 2:26:00 PM

And you missed his: It was still pretty awfully cloying.

And his other point: To FEEL safe just because you're hallucinating some supernatural being, when you know that even if you believe in that superstition, you still won't BE safe, that is just STUPID.

[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)

Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]

Post #215,752

7/20/05 11:59:05 AM

7/20/05 12:00:59 PM

If I missed his, what was it?

I don't understand what "cloying" means, even after looking in the dictionary. It says things like "to surfeit with an excess usually of something orig. pleasing" & "to drive in a nail". The only word I get in the definition is "lame" and even that one doesn't tell me enough about what "cloying is."

As I stated, I answered the question of "where do you go to feel safe." I'm smart enough to realize that security is a state of mind. No one is ever really safe, not ever. Anything can happen to anyone at any moment. So understanding that is the key.

I know security is an illusion, but the greater the illusion, the more secure I feel.

Brenda

"I see little yellow butterflies fluttering round my head and hear little happy bluebirds singing overhead....all will be just fine!"

Edited by Nightowl July 20, 2005, 12:00:59 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #215,754

by drewk

7/20/05 12:13:03 PM

That's not smart, that's pathological

I'm smart enough to realize that security is a state of mind. No one is ever really safe, not ever. Anything can happen to anyone at any moment.

Where I'm sitting right now, there is virtually no chance that I will be shot by a crazed Iraqi terrorist.

I don't know where George Bush is right now, but I'd wager my next paycheck that there is virtually no chance that he is in danger of being run over by a newspaper truck.

There is absolutely no chance that I am about to drown.

Get it?

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #215,860

7/21/05 2:05:51 AM

7/21/05 2:09:02 AM

Re: That's not smart, that's pathological

I'm smart enough to realize that security is a state of mind. No one is ever really safe, not ever. Anything can happen to anyone at any moment.
Where I'm sitting right now, there is virtually no chance that I will be shot by a crazed Iraqi terrorist.

I don't know where George Bush is right now, but I'd wager my next paycheck that there is virtually no chance that he is in danger of being run over by a newspaper truck.

There is absolutely no chance that I am about to drown.

Get it?

No, sorry, I don't. I didn't say a specific kind of safe, I said anything can happen to anyone at any moment. That means a plane could crash through my roof right this minute. Now is it likely to? No. But it could happen. And a car could crash into my house at any moment, but is it likely to? No.

Are you likely to drown? No, but you could choke on a chicken bone. I didn't say a specific thing would or wouldn't happen, you took it to specifics, not me.

My point is life is short, and when it's our time to go, we go. No questions, no whimpering, no arguments. It's our time.

People do what they can to "feel safe" to create that illusion of security. I do it with burglar alarms, fire alarms, smoke alarms, and CO/Gas detectors. I do it with double locks on the door, and with always locking all my doors at all times.

And I do it by posting signs all over my house that God is my protector, fortress and shield and He keeps me safe. Therefore He decides when it's my time to go, no one else. And until then, it isn't

I don't understand what's pathological about that, but maybe I'm misunderstanding the meaning of pathological as well.

Brenda

Edit: Obligatory flame.... and la dee da da and all that bullshit.

"I see little yellow butterflies fluttering round my head and hear little happy bluebirds singing overhead....all will be just fine!"

Edited by Nightowl July 21, 2005, 02:09:02 AM EDT

Expand All History

Post #215,873

7/21/05 3:32:42 AM

How the fucking fuck can you NOT get it?

Featherbrains

quotes Drook
quoting her:
I'm smart enough to realize that security is a state of mind. No one is ever really safe, not ever. Anything can happen to anyone at any moment. [Emphasis added - CRC]
Where I'm sitting right now, there is virtually no chance that I will be shot by a crazed Iraqi terrorist.

I don't know where George Bush is right now, but I'd wager my next paycheck that there is virtually no chance that he is in danger of being run over by a newspaper truck.

There is absolutely no chance that I am about to drown.

Get it?
No, sorry, I don't. I didn't say a specific kind of safe, I said anything can happen to anyone at any moment. [Emphasis added - CRC]

Exactly!

Only, you're apparently too fucking STOOOPID to UNDERSTAND what the fuck you said.

That means a plane could crash through my roof right this minute. Now is it likely to? No. But it could happen. And a car could crash into my house at any moment, but is it likely to? No.

It ALSO means, Drew "could" DROWN at this very moment. Or, George Bush "could" be about to be run over by a newspaper truck. Or are those things somehow NOT included in your definition of "anything"?!?

(If so, then yes, you probably DO need a "more intense" dictionary...)

Are you likely to drown? No, but you could choke on a chicken bone. I didn't say a specific thing would or wouldn't happen, you took it to specifics, not me.

You said, "ANYTHING". Those specifics he chose as examples are EXAMPLES OF "anything".

So, if ANYTHING "could" happen, then THOSE THINGS DREW MENTIONED "could" happen.

But they CAN'T. So "anything" CAN NOT happen.

I honestly can't quite fathom how fucking stupid one would have to be not to understand that.

[Rest of toddler-level "philosophical" drivel, which had nothing to do with earlier posts, snipped.]

[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)

Post #215,973

7/21/05 5:06:44 PM

7/21/05 11:26:50 PM

Re: How the fucking fuck can you NOT get it?

Only, you're apparently too fucking STOOOPID to UNDERSTAND what the fuck you said.

You know what Conrad, I don't give a flying fuck what you think about me, or whether or not you think I'm stoopid.... btw it's spelled stupid.

I have had the most hellish weekend I've had in years... I helped put on a family reunion with over 80 fucking relatives in ONE building, and there was times when I wanted to scream, throw things, and hit people.

Not to mention that I almost got the female equivalent of castrated by a stupid kid who was lying in the middle of the floor when I was trying to pass, and instead of listening to me tell him to stay put, he raised up and hit my inner thigh and almost sent me fucking headlong out the door to the concrete! I managed to get my balance, and stay on my feet, but it was a damn CLOSE CALL, and man did my leg hurt after, because I must've pulled a muscle or something.

Then when I was LEAST up for it, somehow a few people coming over on Sunday resulted in a BARRAGE of family members, so that my house was full of relatives, 21 to be exact, at a time when I could barely walk, or use my left arm due to fucking RSI....

And then, to put the topper on the kettle of fucking fish, the reunion committee (that includes me), had a serious misunderstanding about who was handling the money in what way, and this resulted in me being told I was expected to do ALL the fucking finances for EVERYONE, when I had explicitly stated I didn't want to do that again this year. Have I ever mentioned that Owls hate math? OWLS HATE MATH! Math is the most horrid thing ever created to torture people, and I wish it would take all it's damn operations and functions and numbers and just DISAPPEAR!

So this resulted in my having a panic attack, and then screaming hysterically (which is part of that, as to why was I being expected to do this, and this turned into a glorious family screaming match on the front yard.....

So you know what Conrad? Whether or not you think I'm Stoopid or Stupid, take your choice, is of so little consequence to me that you might as well be whispering it, because I could FUCKING CARE LESS!

That means a plane could crash through my roof right this minute. Now is it likely to? No. But it could happen. And a car could crash into my house at any moment, but is it likely to? No.
It ALSO means, Drew "could" DROWN at this very moment. Or, George Bush "could" be about to be run over by a newspaper truck. Or are those things somehow NOT included in your definition of "anything"?!?

Of course they are, because no one knows what will happen at any given time, which was my point.

So, if ANYTHING "could" happen, then THOSE THINGS DREW MENTIONED "could" happen.

But they CAN'T. So "anything" CAN NOT happen.

I disagree. I'm sure given the right circumstances they COULD happen. That's different however, from LIKELY to happen.

I honestly can't quite fathom how fucking stupid one would have to be not to understand that.

And I honestly can't fathom why I would fucking care about your assessment of me.

Brenda

Edit: Corrected castration to "female equivalent"

"I see little yellow butterflies fluttering round my head and hear little happy bluebirds singing overhead....all will be just fine!"

Edited by Nightowl July 21, 2005, 11:26:50 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #215,974

by tuberculosis

7/21/05 5:51:09 PM

Nice rant

bitch. (Hey, its the flame forum - gotta keep down the standards).

Feel better?

Post #215,980

7/21/05 6:17:20 PM

Re: Nice rant

bitch. (Hey, its the flame forum - gotta keep down the standards).

Feel better?

Actually, yes. I was so angry on Monday that I pounded my desk with both fists, bruising my RSI hand and the other hand on the thumb and the heel of the hand. I haven't been that angry in so long, I wasn't even sure how to deal with it.

Brenda

"I see little yellow butterflies fluttering round my head and hear little happy bluebirds singing overhead....all will be just fine!"

Post #215,986

by inthane-chan

7/21/05 6:39:00 PM

Do what I do.

Get some sword-shaped (or, in my case, naginata-shaped) foam-padded PVC pipes covered with a layer of duct tape, then go beat the crap out of some poor sap carrying the same armament.

Repeat until stress is relieved. :)

apt-get install godlike-powers

Post #216,011

by Silverlock

7/21/05 9:54:22 PM

Cloying; similar to "I think you're being too Pollyanna-ish"

I must admit, the above rant does tend to refute the "little miss good person-ness" of the original "but praying makes it all better" comment. You have to keep in mind that several of us consider any religion a form of institutional insanity. Having faith that the giant invisible old white guy in the sky will make it all better if we only *believe* in the giant invisible old white guy in the sky is something several of us have come to not believe.

-----------------------------------------
"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for. As for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican."
-- H. L. Mencken

Support our troops, Impeach Bush.
D. D. Richards

Post #216,022

7/21/05 10:54:03 PM

Re: ...similar to "I think you're being too Pollyanna-ish"

I must admit, the above rant does tend to refute the "little miss good person-ness" of the original "but praying makes it all better" comment. You have to keep in mind that several of us consider any religion a form of institutional insanity. Having faith that the giant invisible old white guy in the sky will make it all better if we only *believe* in the giant invisible old white guy in the sky is something several of us have come to not believe.

I almost get it now, there's just too many words in the Thesaurus to describe cloying and Pollyanna. But I get that Rcareaga thought it was boring, or uninteresting, so ok, it was boring, if that's the case, so fucking what. Also it appears that he thought it was trite, or commonplace, or gooey.. who knows, there's too many words.

My point was, I didn't care what anyone thought of the blasted original post, all I cared about was that I answered the question that was asked, and I fucking did that, so what's the big hangup here? I didn't tell Rcareaga to come in here and flame me for my "supposedly lame" post and create a long thread while I wasn't even here to see it!

Although that does strike me as funny, because you must all think I'm interesting in some respect, because if you didn't, you all wouldn't have debated about the post for such a long thread while I wasn't even perpetuating it! That's the funniest part of this entire thread!

And if you'll re-read my post, Silverlock, you'll see that I didn't say a word about praying. I said I used my imagination to feel safe. Imagining God as a Huge Owl Protector doesn't mean I'm praying to him to imagine him.

Praying, well that's another story that maybe I'll touch on some day, but I only recently learned to actually feel something while praying, because for years I was searching for achieving the "perfect daily prayer"... having been freed from that recently, (due to some revelations on my part), I now know that The Almighty in whatever form he takes for whomever, doesn't need the "perfect prayer" to hear you or to care. And yes, I know some of you don't believe, and that's your perogative.

But as I stated, if I didn't create some illusion of security for myself, to ease my panic-anxiety reactions to possible dangers, I would be afraid to leave the house, or open the front door.... hence, I created the "safe place to go" that works for me.

It's kind of like trying to achieve something that's fucking impossible, i.e. to be truly "safe" yet the more you try, the more you feel it might be possible.

I am definitely NOT a "little miss good person-ness", although I would like to be.... there's a dark side of me that rears it's head from time to time whenever I get madder than hell and can't contain it anymore. I'm not proud of it, but I accept it's there.

Brenda

"I see little yellow butterflies fluttering round my head and hear little happy bluebirds singing overhead....all will be just fine!"

Post #216,029

by boxley

7/21/05 11:11:30 PM

you almost got cstrated I need to have a long talk with john

otherwise if the ox family had 80 members in one room its either a mass trial or a last person standing scenario. Last time we had a pile together we could have taken on the sackett's of tennesee and still had leftovers to ransack rome. The most we ever had in a pile was 30 at grans funeral and M15 had watchers outside the house(I heard that second hand)
thanx,
bill

Post #216,032

7/21/05 11:25:06 PM

John read it already and laughed!

Boxley wrote:>>Re: you almost got cstrated I need to have a long talk with john<<

Hehehe!

I meant to go back and fix that... it was supposed to say the "female equivalent of being castrated."

I'll go edit that now. ;)

Brenda

"I see little yellow butterflies fluttering round my head and hear little happy bluebirds singing overhead....all will be just fine!... Hmmmm someone get me a net!"

Post #216,036

by boxley

7/22/05 12:11:53 AM

female rotor router, no clit no parteey

or so the ignorant think. Since you are a scorpio lady and sexual sctuff is either discreet and not to be broadcast (letting John be the keeper of the Aunt Jemima clit twizzlers) please in future pick on the apparent inconsistant neo-nephrenes, ( wanna havwe sex but unsure of how to approach their better halves on how to introduce {ensoucsance) beter known as wanting to stick a thumb up her ass for traction)) or taking the other scorpio well known trait explain in detail how you get off, either way it is enterting to me :-)
thanx,
bill

Post #216,038

7/22/05 12:18:36 AM

Hahaha

Well, I almost got about kicked in the crotch, does that grab ya? ;)

Brenda

"I see little yellow butterflies fluttering round my head and hear little happy bluebirds singing overhead....all will be just fine!... Hmmmm someone get me a net!"

Post #215,893

by Another Scott

7/21/05 8:18:25 AM

You're mixing terms.

This thread started with a discussion about being "safe" at home. [link|http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=safe|Safe] means several things that are different depending on the context:

safe Audio pronunciation of "safe" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sf)
adj. saf\ufffder, saf\ufffdest

1. Secure from danger, harm, or evil.
2. Free from danger or injury; unhurt: safe and sound.
3. Free from risk; sure: a safe bet.
4. Affording protection: a safe place.
5. Baseball. Having reached a base without being put out, as a batter or base runner.

Being safe from attack from an unknown stranger doesn't mean that accidents can't happen.

If you take safe to mean a place where nothing unpleasant happens, well there's no such place. As such, a "safe place" has no meaning. It's like discussing invisible pink unicorns....

Drew's point is that the word "anything" is extremely broad.

If your safety is in God's hands, then signs and burgular alarms really aren't necessary, are they? IMO, safety from others involves common sense and taking reasonable precautions. Safety from houses falling out of the sky, well, I don't think signs are going to help much....

"Falling-House Free Zone"

;-)

Try not to worry so much. Enjoy life while you can.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #215,971

7/21/05 4:56:14 PM

7/21/05 5:15:31 PM

Hmmm, trying to get it

This thread started with a discussion about being "safe" at home. [link|http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=safe|Safe] means several things that are different depending on the context:

No, not really. I thought it was about how to FEEL safe not how to BE safe. Isn't there a huge difference?

Being safe from attack from an unknown stranger doesn't mean that accidents can't happen.

Obviously, because they can. In that respect, yes, Drew could drown where he's sitting, because suppose an airplane with water tanks crashed or dropped the water over his house... I never say never.

If you take safe to mean a place where nothing unpleasant happens, well there's no such place. As such, a "safe place" has no meaning. It's like discussing invisible pink unicorns....

But I don't mean that such a place exists. I mean that I go to the "place" in my mind to feel safe, so that I'm not constantly paranoid about being shot any minute, the house catching fire any minute, etc etc. Otherwise I'm a nervous wreck, which I've been trying to avoid. I was a mess after 9/11, I was certain planes would crash into my house. I had to find an "inner" place inside myself to be able to stop worrying about such an unlikely (but not impossible), event.

Drew's point is that the word "anything" is extremely broad.

I guess so, but I'm still not sure what he was saying, whether he was saying he WAS likely to drown, or wasn't. You guys's sarcasm befuddles me a lot.

If your safety is in God's hands, then signs and burgular alarms really aren't necessary, are they? IMO, safety from others involves common sense and taking reasonable precautions. Safety from houses falling out of the sky, well, I don't think signs are going to help much....

The signs and burglar alarms are us helping ourselves achieve the wanted goal. Yes, God is ultimately responsible for my safety, but it doesn't help if I leave all my doors and windows open or run a gas appliance without the pilot light lit. He does expect us to try and take care of ourselves and help ourselves however we can. Example, if you ask him to give you a job, and then don't go out and submit applications, you aren't helping yourself.

Try not to worry so much. Enjoy life while you can.

I'm getting better at not worrying, and that "inner" place has helped.

Brenda

"I see little yellow butterflies fluttering round my head and hear little happy bluebirds singing overhead....all will be just fine!"

Edited by Nightowl July 21, 2005, 05:15:31 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #215,989

by Ashton

7/21/05 7:27:05 PM

Brenda, in this case: they're (mostly) Fucked, y'know?

I believe you gave a perfectly comprehensible == a bloody-ACCEPTABLE English language explanation of what *you* MEANT by the phrase,'FEELING SAFE' ... {enough.. for Government Work}.

That CRC is the Boss-[link|http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=persnickety&db=*|Persnickety]-one-of-Guido's-pecksniff-gang to-end-all-Persnickety-ones, on matters of ~~Faithn'Morals~~ language syntax ritual / Goddish matters
[He's Sure, you see - why, he looked around and saw Nary a One] ..

ergo:
it is utterly fruitless for you to Bite on his logical, mechanical deconstructions of any of your utterances. Y'see?

As for 'feeling safe' -- some others assign that attribute to a larger-Sense 'state' most often called, peaceful. Some ffolks, especially those heavily immersed in multitasking thousands of daily trivial make-work activities: just.. never.. achieve Either of these 'states'!
(Except catatonia / other sleep-mode, oft drug-induced --- why d'ya think, Some people pine for repeated surgeries!?)

(BTW .. That abominable unHuman situation appears Central, IMnshO: to the reasons *why* the US has become the Fucked-country, probably to END-All-Other Fucked-countries? in the not-so-distant future.)

So, whatever Works for you, to snatch a few endorphins out of a silly schedule which You Have Created for Yourself.. 's OK by moi.

You have demonstrated that you are not a Stupid person, though your English language 'recognition vocabulary' is pretty fucking low, for an intelligent adult.
That peculiarity, however - is not about (that tiresomely vaunted) 'Intelligence'-thing nor is it about one's Emotional Smarts, at all -- though some just Love to imagine that word-dyslexia connotes both.

Screw. Them.
Tell 'em to POAD - piss.off.and.die.

Peace,
moi

(We Sophisticated cha Ones cha -in fact- do enjoy immensely, the nuances available amidst the million-or-so Eng. Words extant, many stolen from all those Other word-noises ever uttered.)

But ya don't allus gets What Yaa Waant, within this fine day-to-day Illusion dream-thingy.

Post #215,993

by Ashton

7/21/05 8:34:50 PM

PS - that Word thing... again

Maybe. you. just. Don't 'know' --?-- how, frequently, It Is -- in homo-saps who are Not-you [?]

Y'see most of us.. possess a nexus of ALL word-associations Evah; a thingy far too er holographic? as *ever* to be decipherable, parse-able, expressible - even for a second PhD AND a key to the Executive john. Clearly.. 'words' are (for most, save the 'gifted' dyslexics, certain autistics) - the very basis of most of our pedestrian 'thought' things of any sort.

There IS no map of this territory, and neurons/axons are just current baby-steps towards foolishly imagining some future Grand-dissection of what Being-Alive ""means"" [Talk about Stooopid..]
cha. cha. cha.

So if.. you have as much trouble as, it is apparent: You Do, with even so relatively-common a word as cloying; also haven't figure out that.. what you needed above was a thesaurus to rummage about in, for some likely phrase which you Do recognize:

Then your research-skillz are also, sadly crippled.
That does not bode well for your comprehending Why some of your missives strike chords in others, that are quite more dissonant than say, C-major triads (a simple, uncluttered feel-Good 'chord', that is).

I couldn't begin to imagine How-That-Is for/in *you* - and I suspect, neither can any but a precious few homo-saps with certain instincts which most of us pedestrian-types lack / have been too mentally/emotionally self-crippled=lazy to resurrect-within.

(It Is sooo much easier to dwell just in the simplistic-logic EZ-path in the jelloware than.. ever.. to refine a few of the countless hidden Possibilities we only glimpse in those folks who make it to that Genius list. Or have visions and also sometimes, Vision.)
I've become convinced that homo-sap is ~ 99.9999% Horrendously Mentally-lazy. A truly Odious Thing, if true.

(Our perpetually repeated assassinations of both other-homo-saps and Language itself.. certainly supports this thesis.)

Practice with a thesaurus til it Hurts.
(Then try it out on a nearby Huggy-bear - SHE won't laugh.)

Therapy for a Doomed Species, LLC
No deposit. No return.

Post #216,031

7/21/05 11:23:18 PM

Re: PS - that Word thing... again

So if.. you have as much trouble as, it is apparent: You Do, with even so relatively-common a word as cloying; also haven't figure out that.. what you needed above was a thesaurus to rummage about in, for some likely phrase which you Do recognize:

Well, no one I associate with would be likely to consider cloying to be a commonplace word. I betcha none of my relatives would know what it meant, and John said it had too many meanings, to look it up, which I did.

Then your research-skillz are also, sadly crippled.

Not crippled, I was just too busy lately to research it too intensely, and I really didn't care what people thought of my post, so it also wasn't a high priority. I researched it more tonight, but again, the problem is there are too many possible choices, so once you get the list of possibilities, then you are sitting there trying to figure out which of the fucking choices fits the situation.... talk about frustration!

That does not bode well for your comprehending Why some of your missives strike chords in others, that are quite more dissonant than say, C-major triads (a simple, uncluttered feel-Good 'chord', that is).

I understand some people hate my posts. Some people even CRINGE when they read my posts... but you know what? This is fucking cyberspace... and fucking cyberspace is a big place... big enough for those that hate my posts, those that like my posts, those that are mildly amused by my posts and those who don't fucking care.

I've changed my posting level and style rather dramatically on here, and if people don't see that, well... they know the drill.

Brenda

"I see little yellow butterflies fluttering round my head and hear little happy bluebirds singing overhead....all will be just fine!... Hmmmm someone get me a net!"

Post #216,033

by Ashton

7/21/05 11:50:53 PM

{chortle}

Yes, noticed your sparser postings.

Cloying ain't no biggie.

You know how Most stupid f*#$%& pastry chefs ALWAYS overdo the (cheap) Almond extract in various (BAD-for-one) pastries? A little almond can be Nice, if one likes almond. Too much: is *cloying*; just as, the term 'saccharine-sweet' also implies.

(saccharine is a now outdated, obsolete sugar-substitute; tastes as Awful as do most-all so-called 'Diet' fizz-water crap {uggh} but a tiny pill of it ""sweetened"" a whole cup of coffee.) Etc.

I.

Post #216,028

7/21/05 11:08:32 PM

Re: Brenda, in this case: they're (mostly) Fucked, y'know?

I believe you gave a perfectly comprehensible == a bloody-ACCEPTABLE English language explanation of what *you* MEANT by the phrase,'FEELING SAFE' ... {enough.. for Government Work}.

Thank you Ashton, I thought so too.

it is utterly fruitless for you to Bite on his logical, mechanical deconstructions of any of your utterances. Y'see?

Yep, I know. I just have been so pissed lately that I saw an outlet for some of that, so hey, I cut loose... it happens. ;)

As for 'feeling safe' -- some others assign that attribute to a larger-Sense 'state' most often called, peaceful. Some ffolks, especially those heavily immersed in multitasking thousands of daily trivial make-work activities: just.. never.. achieve Either of these 'states'!

So, whatever Works for you, to snatch a few endorphins out of a silly schedule which You Have Created for Yourself.. 's OK by moi.

Thanks, and it took me a long time to even create for myself an illusion of being safe... I used to be more afraid of the big mean nasty old fucked up world than I am even now!

You have demonstrated that you are not a Stupid person, though your English language 'recognition vocabulary' is pretty fucking low, for an intelligent adult.

I suspect that's because you all have PhDs and I do not? I also suspect it's because I used to be able to spend a lot more time reading more sophisticated books, (in other words, more intellectual than Star Wars), but that changed more and more as I got busier and busier. Add that to the fact that I for a very long time, hung out with a group of people who didn't have the brains of a fly crossed with a rat, and it's no wonder I didn't grasp more vocabulary.

Combined with talking to my parents, which is sort of like... well fucking explaining over and over to a stubborn three-year old why they cannot do something, my vocabulary skills are not what they once were.

However, I do run to the dictionary if in doubt, AND the Thesaurus. Currently I use the ones online, because John's giant dictionary that I like, well let's face it, it fucking hurts my RSI arm to lift that one. The problem is that the dammned Thesaurus isn't the end all-be all answer... and the reason for that is there are TOO MANY DAMNED CHOICES FOR THE MEANING OF THE WORD IN QUESTION!

Ah well.... I continue to struggle to grasp whatever it is that whomever is posting in IWT is trying to get me to grasp, at least I don't give up, or decide it's not worth trying... I am fucking persistent in that respect.

And you, Ashton, my wonderfully well-versed Wizard of words, well you have been my example, my mentor, my "teacher" as it were, of the mystery of language. For it is a mysterious entity, is it not?

Brenda

"I see little yellow butterflies fluttering round my head and hear little happy bluebirds singing overhead....all will be just fine!.... hmmm someone get me a net!"

Post #216,035

by Ashton

7/22/05 12:08:32 AM

Oblig {blush}

We do best that which we love to do. (This was also the one-sentence summary message of a dozen or so hours of Joseph Campbell's Power of Myth - run repeatedly on PBS) - usually these days, during pledge weeks.

Everything we learn or are capable of learning from others (other than via direct experience / touching the Hot-stove and replying, OWW!!!) is via Language. Also every small- medium- large- progress we make in the Necessary daily Art of Lying, to get through some asshole bizness 'project', say - - and still retain both some sanity AND some integrity:

Demands! the artful use of language / in- via eyes, ears / out- via mouth, Steno or other.

Those who Love language will be as unable to answer a Stoopid question like Why? - as to explain why it just might Be - -

That the "solid-things", those with mass and made up of so-called atoms and stuff are 'Illusionary' ... while any access to what-might-maybe-be ~Real: is entirely within, inexpressible and indescribable in ordinary language, with those ordinary [referents] for each word.

Nobody can put anything Useful together for another - so, grab what you Can, wherever it turns up, I say. (Tyranny of Words is always a decent re-read, when one forgets how fragile are 'definitions' of anything actually Important, y'know?)

Luck,

I Who Be

Post #216,039

by boxley

7/22/05 12:20:40 AM

FOR "INSERT DIETY HRE!!!!!!

we are not smart, we are not anything but humans sniffing around the cold campfires of the normals to see if its safe to hestitently see if it is safe to expose our true feelings. If it is safe we beat our chests and dain agreement with the trend of the day. If we see anyting else we escape and pretend it is a subissue of what is real
thanx,
bill

Post #216,063

by broomberg

7/22/05 6:35:39 AM

As the dentist said...

Is it safe?

Post #216,088

by drewk

7/22/05 12:06:36 PM

Your denial confirms it

Thanks, and it took me a long time to even create for myself an illusion of being safe.

I feel safe. And I don't think it's an illusion I have to work to convince myself of.

I am not about to drown.

I am not about to get hit by a truck.

A plane is not about to crash into this building.

The computer I am typing on is not about to burst into flames, nor elecrocute me.

Masked gunmen are not about to run in the door and shoot me.

Sure, any of these things could theoretically happen. But I would have to work really hard to make myself actually worry about them. It sounds like you have to work really hard to convince yourself that you don't have to worry about them. That's not reasonable.

If you're in a plane that hits turbulence, is it reasonable to worry? Sure. Is it reasonable for people in London to be skittish about getting on a train today? Absolutely.

But you've described unreasonable fears about things that are very unlikely to happen. You've convinced yourself that any of them really could happen at any time. It sounds like you're so afraid of what might happen that you actually miss out on much of what makes life worth living.

There could be a razor blade in that chocolate ice cream. Better not eat it.

There could be subliminal messages in that music. Better turn the radio off.

A meteroite could strike at any minute. Better stay inside, behind locked doors, with sandbags on the roof, wearing a helmet, forever.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #216,091

7/22/05 12:29:50 PM

7/22/05 12:39:14 PM

Re: Your denial confirms it

Sure, any of these things could theoretically happen. But I would have to work really hard to make myself actually worry about them. It sounds like you have to work really hard to convince yourself that you don't have to worry about them. That's not reasonable.

I know it isn't reasonable. That's why it's called Panic-Anxiety. There are different kinds, and mine is unreasonable fear and not dealing with no-win situations. But you would probably understand more if you knew my background, and how my father came from a small Kentucky town to the "big" city of St. Louis. Due to that, and the radical differences of how you live in both places, he more or less "taught" me to be afraid of everything, something I've been undoing for years.... with much success in many areas, I might add.

But you've described unreasonable fears about things that are very unlikely to happen. You've convinced yourself that any of them really could happen at any time. It sounds like you're so afraid of what might happen that you actually miss out on much of what makes life worth living.

I don't think I miss out on much. There are things I won't do myself, such as drive to Granite City alone anymore, because I tend to screw up and end up in a bad neighborhood.. (this has happened before), and there are things I prefer to avoid, like flying. But I do live life to the fullest in my opinion, that is, a life I'm happy and satisfied with. The fear is kind of like something deep down inside, that I wrestle with whenever it tries to appear.. it doesn't prevent me from doing something I truly want to do. Does that help?

There could be a razor blade in that chocolate ice cream. Better not eat it.

There could be subliminal messages in that music. Better turn the radio off.

A meteroite could strike at any minute. Better stay inside, behind locked doors, with sandbags on the roof, wearing a helmet, forever.

Hehehe, nah... nothing to that extreme. In fact, during the 9/11 hype, I didn't even go buy duct-tape and cardboard or whatever all that nonsense was. Most of my fears have a basis, despite how unreasonable they are, so I work on that basis.

My dad told me over and over for years, don't go downstairs after 10, you'll get hurt, or something will happen to you. So for years, if I tried to go downstairs after 10:00 p.m. my heart would pound and I would be afraid. I searched out the basis for this, and learned he was just not wanting his "young child" at the time to be downstairs unsupervised that late at night. It wasn't really that something "down there" would burst out and grab me. Knowing that made me able to conquer my fear, and I "CAN" go downstairs after 10:00 p.m. now. My heart still races sometimes, if I truly think about what I'm doing, but I still manage to go down and do whatever it is needs to be done.

Most of my fears have that basis, either Dad drove them into my brain, or someone else did, or I developed a misunderstanding about something and considered it a threat. But when I conquer one, I'm proud...

Hehehe, I remember dad saying when I was about 19 or so, "Don't go down to downtown St. Louis, you'll get raped and mugged." Well, my boyfriend at the time took me to the city to the Soldier's Memorial and Union Station, and I remember when I got home, I said to my dad, "Daddy, I went downtown and saw Union Station and I didn't get raped and mugged!"

My fears are really my problem, and I've been treating them for years, and many have been conquered to whatever degree they can be. It's my mind that's the hardest to conquer. :)

Edit: I thought of something to add. You say you are safe, and you know you are. I say I'm safe to the best I can be, barring something unexpected or surreal.

Brenda

P.S. Insert obligatory flame words here.

"I see little yellow butterflies fluttering round my head and hear little happy bluebirds singing overhead....all will be just fine!... Hmmmm someone get me a net!"

Edited by Nightowl July 22, 2005, 12:39:14 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #216,145

by pwhysall

7/22/05 5:56:23 PM

Free clue

There is no god. And you're not saved, and he won't be there for you.

Post #216,117

by jb4

7/22/05 3:37:28 PM

**could be**?!?

There could be subliminal messages in that music. Better turn the radio off.

I thought that was already a known fact that all rock-n-roll (and some country) music have satanic messages encoded within them! (ref: Tipper Gore, Phyllis Schlafly, Pat Robertson, etc.)

Post #216,144

by Ashton

7/22/05 5:52:31 PM

IthinkI'mgoingintomymind

Post #215,761

by boxley

7/20/05 12:48:23 PM

cloying is extreme clinging with mucho annoying

Post #215,862

7/21/05 2:11:18 AM

Say what?

Box wrote:>>Re: cloying is extreme clinging with mucho annoying<<

Huh? what does that have to do with being lame... or driving a nail? Sorry, but I'm not getting it. Maybe I need a more intense dictionary.

Maybe someone should try giving me a synonym that I might get for it.

Brenda

"I see little yellow butterflies fluttering round my head and hear little happy bluebirds singing overhead....all will be just fine!"

Post #215,786

7/20/05 3:53:44 PM

It was A:How cloying (=sickeningly sweet);B:How stupid! HTH.

Post #215,863

7/21/05 2:12:34 AM

Nope, doesn't help

Conrad wrote:>>Re: It was A:How cloying (=sickeningly sweet);B:How stupid! HTH.<<

Honestly, it doesn't help the least damn bit. I still have no idea how it applies to my original post, and believe me, I'm trying to grasp it.

Brenda

"I see little yellow butterflies fluttering round my head and hear little happy bluebirds singing overhead....all will be just fine!"

Post #215,870