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New You've hit on an important point...
And missed it entirely. You write:
"Raining 500 pounders on a foreign country where the majority of its population are at the verge of starvation and disease is self-defense?"
Which can be the only semblance of a point you have made in this entire thread. But where did you get the crazy idea that this is self defense? This is an offensive war to kill a group of people who have declared war on us. It is in our interest to kill them rather than let them fester and grow in Afghanistan and yes, the best defense is a good offense, but what do you mean, defense? Well, the problem further stated is such... The government of those poor people (the average Afghani citizen) chose a very poor friend to defend. The Taliban, by their refusal to hand over Bin Laden (which makes all of your points about international law, presenting evidence, etc... so much horseshit - The prosecution does not tip it's hand before the accused is detained), invited us and the bombs in.

As to Cuba, Nicaragua, Somalia, and on and on. The COLD WAR IS OVER. All the happy horseshit about propping up tyrants who would wave our flag (as opposed to the hammer and sickle) is also over (let's pray). And the rhetoric surrounding the evil US and it's naive populous is over (should be - understand?), because it no longer applies. If it makes you happy, maybe we are paying for our Cold War sins now, but what we are doing militarily is ABSOLUTELY the right thing at this point in our history. When we allow Israel to do what is necessary, it will also be the right thing. Something that seems to get lost in these discussions is the fact that we have trained and armed Israel to the teeth. Militarily, they could have expanded their borders long ago... We have been chanting restraint. We won't much longer. The Arab countries that now "hate" us, are really going to hate us when we "allow" Israel to take care of their business.

When you think it's okay to target civilians in New York or Jerusalem and think of them as "military" victories... You most probably aren't long for this world. I would argue that this is just one more negative consequence of the collapse of the Soviet Union. If nothing else, the Soviets in their hayday were able to keep Yugoslavia together by threat of abject violence. The same for Nicaragua and Cuba... Sort of the Yin with the Yan... The vacuum left by their disintegration is the root cause of much of the mess... And, like it or not, the remaining superpower is obligated to clean it up.
Just a few thoughts,

Screamer

"I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..."

P. Townshend

"Nietzsche has an S in it"
Celina Jones
New Ah, you forget TTC still waves Red China's hammer and sicle.
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
New Re: You've hit on an important point...
If you do read the post that I was responding to, perhaps my post would make MORE sense to you when taken in proper context.

New Actually, you are probably right
in that the context of your reply and the general point of your thread is about jingoism... It's hard not to at times when the topic is inflamatory and the statements that follow conjure up strong emotion.

That said, all war euphemisms (like marketing... collateral damage, friendly fire, etc..) are pretty disgusting in that they are language meant to diffuse (or confuse). Please understand that my problem with your particular statements to which I responded to, seem to point out that you are still debating from a somewhat "Cold War" America (and all it's faults) point of view. I could be wrong. I dislike the rah, rah, rah, just as much as the next guy, but I also feel that this is a "just" action (if there ever really could be). I wish I could be more concrete but I still cannot divorce myself from the pathos of this situation. In debate, it is best to always try to argue from the logos, and that's why I am tending to shy away from this forum as of late. I think it very "human" to be emotional and not want to discuss this country's faults at this particular time.

Notice that I have not stated that I disagree with much of your posts in this thread, I think that the one I replied to may have gone a bit too far... YMMV.
Just a few thoughts,

Screamer

"I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..."

P. Townshend

"Nietzsche has an S in it"
Celina Jones
New Re: Actually, you are probably right
Believe me, I do understand.
New Al punte mon fr\ufffdre: No Balance of Power today exists..
That which sustained all throughout the 30 Years War, the 100 Years War, the ___ Wars ...ad nauseum ad infinitum and --> ongoing.. through the perpetual adolescence of homo non compos mentis.

There is No Place in the (This!) World for *Just One* Superpower! as your Yin/Yang simile wisely reminds. And at the present rate of accidental contretemps - there *Will* be an opposition coalition created.. eventually.. to counter our unsustainable hegemony \ufffdber alles. Microsloth is what you get, with *Just One* of ANYTHING. (And with an Ashcroftian/Billyan at the helm)

'Balance' or.. Worldwide Dystopia via (virtual) Dictat. We are dumb enough collectively - maybe?? - that either is a possible fork, in some next: depending IMhO on just how long we can keep it in the pants. Period. One Nuke next: can ruin Your Whole \ufffdon.




Ashton
New Balance...
It is an impossible judgement to make. I still want to remain hopeful that one superpower can thrive in a world... History is against it (see Rome, Greece, Great Britain, etc...), but there is a chance that we could become enlightened... Unfortunately, our greed (commonly euphemized "business interests"), tends to make us want to build empires and makes it harder from us to steer clear of tyrants. Given the nature of this country, we basically are a decent lot - way too materialistic for some culture's tastes...

Oh, all right. You are probably right. Just wish it weren't so...
Just a few thoughts,

Screamer

"I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..."

P. Townshend

"Nietzsche has an S in it"
Celina Jones
New Next Stop Rollerball :(
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
     More jingoism and oddly, similarities - (TTC) - (36)
         Re: More jingoism and oddly, similarities - (bluke) - (1)
             Re: More jingoism and oddly, similarities - (TTC)
         Do you have anything resembling a point? - (Silverlock) - (11)
             Re: Do you have anything resembling a point? - (TTC) - (10)
                 Ah thats no fun... - (bepatient) - (8)
                     Re: Ah thats no fun... - (TTC) - (7)
                         Devil's advocacy doesn't build understanding. - (Another Scott) - (6)
                             Re: Devil's advocacy doesn't build understanding. - (TTC) - (5)
                                 Interesting. - (bepatient) - (4)
                                     One point about food and medicine - (jake123) - (3)
                                         On Nicaragua - (bepatient) - (2)
                                             So the US has no blame whatsoever? - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
                                                 No - (bepatient)
                 Re: Keeping mum. - (Silverlock)
         Yup, we're keeping mum. - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
             ya wanna keep my mum too? - (boxley)
         OK, I'm confused - (tuberculosis) - (7)
             Thought we were making lease payments on Guantanamo. -NT - (Andrew Grygus) - (3)
                 I set up shop in a room in your house... - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                     not if you were white:) - (boxley)
                 Re: Thought we were making lease payments on Guantanamo. - (tuberculosis)
             Typically too - (Ashton) - (2)
                 The Cubans you decry send $800 million per year to their... - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                     Of course there's irony! They are People! - (Ashton)
         I don't see the problem - (mhuber) - (11)
             Re: I don't see the problem - (TTC) - (10)
                 Let's talk about this --- - (Ric Locke)
                 Carpet bombing with 29 civilian casualties? - (Andrew Grygus)
                 You've hit on an important point... - (screamer) - (7)
                     Ah, you forget TTC still waves Red China's hammer and sicle. -NT - (a6l6e6x)
                     Re: You've hit on an important point... - (TTC) - (2)
                         Actually, you are probably right - (screamer) - (1)
                             Re: Actually, you are probably right - (TTC)
                     Al punte mon fr\ufffdre: No Balance of Power today exists.. - (Ashton) - (2)
                         Balance... - (screamer)
                         Next Stop Rollerball :( -NT - (boxley)

Ni!
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