Post #203,933
4/19/05 2:37:30 PM
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Well, become a Pagan then, it's easy . . .
. . just remove the Jesus stuff from all the holidays and rituals the church adapted and you're on your way.
Actually, you can even keep Jesus with just minor adjustments (sim. Osiris and other dying god formats), and of course Mary (Isis) and you've got a whole bunch of saints you can return to their original jobs as local "gods" and "goddesses".
Oh, one catch: we don't have cheap forgiveness - you have to take responsibility for your own actions - no "he who believeth in me shall have eternal life" escape clause. On the other hand, no original sin either - all sins are entirely your own.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #203,934
4/19/05 2:56:56 PM
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No original sin...
...you get to innovate all new ones. :-)
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Post #203,942
4/19/05 3:56:05 PM
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As many as you want to take responsibility for anyway.
Of course the competition has sin down pat Get in line in that processional
Step into that small confessional
There, the guy who's got religion'll
Tell you if your sin's original"
- Tom Lehrer [link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #203,936
4/19/05 3:09:00 PM
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Pagan, huh?
I'm probably more pagan than I care to admit but I dont like the word "pagan". It inspires visions of naked people dancing around the burning wicker man. (Not that I'm against naked dancing around a fire, mind you.)
What do you call someone who believes in God but is fed up with the limitations, restrictions and politics of organized religion?
And you think Catholics have cheap forgiveness? You try sitting in a pew for hours saying your "Hail Marys" and "Our Fathers" as your penance for swearing at your mother or having impure thoughts about the neighbor boy. Being accountable for your own actions is a cake walk compared to that!
No original sin? I can get on board with that, but I would miss the cake at the baptism parties.
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Post #203,937
4/19/05 3:13:24 PM
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What do you call...
What do you call someone who believes in God but is fed up with the limitations, restrictions and politics of organized religion? In past centuries, they were affectionately referred to as Heretics and Apostates. :-)
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Post #203,939
4/19/05 3:17:04 PM
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Re: Pagan, huh?
"What do you call someone who believes in God but is fed up with the limitations, restrictions and politics of organized religion?"
Confused.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #203,941
4/19/05 3:24:43 PM
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Yes, but you knew that already, didnt you?
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Post #203,944
4/19/05 4:15:12 PM
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Re: Pagan, huh?
It inspires visions of naked people dancing around the burning wicker man. No, that's just the accounting department again. And what do you call? You can call it by your own name. Like it or not you are on your way to becoming God (very long ways to go, but the way). Scripture: upon Eve serving Adam the apple God said (to his wife?) "Behold he has become as we, knowing the difference between good and evil". That was a defining step on the way to becoming God that made man more than the animals. Judaism, Christianity and much more so Islam have been trying to send responsibility for their actions back to God in return for worshiping Him. This is futile and dehumanizing. Accept the path you are one and go forward. [link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #203,947
4/19/05 4:23:07 PM
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You and I must chat some time.
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Post #203,945
4/19/05 4:16:47 PM
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Now I've got a song running through my head :-/
You reminded me of All Souls Night by Loreena McKennitt. I like the song so this is at least somewhat OK.
Anyways there is a variety of forms of paganism. You don't have to dance naked around a burning wicker man if you don't want to. (OTOH if that floats your boat...)
Also pagans don't have to give up a belief in God. Many pagans believe in God, but believe that God is too big to worship all at once, which is why you just worship one aspect at a time. (The variety of pagan deities all being components of one Deity.) Not all pagans believe this, but I've met plenty who do.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #203,950
4/19/05 4:43:08 PM
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They used to be called "Lutherans" ;)
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Post #203,952
4/19/05 4:50:14 PM
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But now they have their own politics :-P
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #203,972
4/19/05 7:42:42 PM
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well you could join the motorcycle non bathing branch
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #203,983
4/20/05 8:25:46 AM
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What do you call them? Maybe a Christian?
[link|http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2023%20;&version=31;|Matthew 23] tells me that Jesus didn't think much of organized religion in his day.
YMMV.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #204,052
4/20/05 11:24:11 AM
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:) Was hoping some would notice that
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Post #206,564
5/8/05 10:02:05 PM
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Saved me pointing it out...
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
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Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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Post #204,119
4/20/05 6:39:16 PM
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Episcopalian?
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #204,241
4/21/05 9:10:53 AM
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Re: Episcopalian?
Ah yes, the liberal Catholics. I looked at them. And the Unitarians. Then I gave up and am now on an extended religious sabbatical.
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Post #204,252
4/21/05 10:06:36 AM
4/21/05 10:06:54 AM
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Liberal Catholic, my rear end
They're Anglicans. That's Church of England, which has a certain unique history as a non-Catholic denomination.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by jake123
April 21, 2005, 10:06:54 AM EDT
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Post #204,262
4/21/05 10:46:14 AM
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I understood they share a lot of the same beliefs
We call them "Catholic-lite"
Explain the differences. Like I said, I'm not all that much into organized religion so I dont know much.
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Post #204,268
4/21/05 11:00:35 AM
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you dont have to cut off your wifes head, divorce is allowed
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #204,273
4/21/05 11:29:01 AM
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:-)
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Post #204,274
4/21/05 11:30:36 AM
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Let's see
As boxley said... (like I said, a unique history). No confession. No priestly celibacy. There is communion. No idolatry of saints, no rosary, no 12 stations of the cross, etc.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #204,296
4/21/05 2:48:26 PM
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No. They are not. But I know why you think that.
First of all technically an Episcopalian Church is one that looks to bishops for leadership. There are many Episcopalian Churches in the world, ranging from Eastern Orthodox to various members of the Anglican Communion.
Now what most people mean by the Episcopalians is The Episcopal Church in the USA. This group is in a unique position. It looks both to the Anglican Church and the Catholic Church, and has special dispensations within both of them. The result is that both Anglicans and Catholics tend to view Episcopelians as being versions of themselves.
For instance a Roman Catholic priest can switch to Episcopalian and back without losing his ordination. This is true for no other Church. It is also very common for Catholics (yeah, I know there are a couple of dozen Catholic churches, most people only know the one) in the USA to switch to/from Episcopalian. (It is often joked that Catholics become Episcopalian when they want to do something bad..and this joke has a lot of truth since the Episcopalian Church allows a lot of things that the Catholics do not.)
Historically until the US revolution, many in the US were Anglicans. After the revolution when Samuel Seabury was elected bishop for Connecticut there was a problem. To be consecrated in the Anglican Church meant swearing the Oath of Supremacy to the British Crown, which he wasn't willing to do. He therefore went to Scotland and was consecrated there. But he continued to view himself as part of the Church of England.
During the 1800s the ties to the Church of England were maintained but Episcopalian practice drifted away from the Anglican and towards the Catholic. For instance their communion more closely resembles a Catholic communion than an Anglican one. I'm not sure where or when their special relationship to the Catholic Church was recognized, but they definitely have it.
Cheers,
Ben
PS I knew the broad outlines of this off of the top of my head. Most of the details I just pulled from Wikipedia. The fact about the special relationship with the Catholic faith I learned from a Catholic who was a co-worker at a previous job. He cared because his wife is an activist in the Roman Catholic Church who wants priests to be able to marry freely. He therefore knows all ways that they can already marry - and one is to switch to Episcopalian, marry, then switch back to Roman Catholic.
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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