The idea sucks in general, too.

Post #203,154 by pwhysall 4/13/05 7:18:07 AM Reply	The idea sucks in general, too. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #203,587 by tablizer 4/16/05 4:00:43 PM Reply	you were vague on why it "sucked" ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #203,651 by pwhysall 4/17/05 2:35:22 PM Reply	I have a Mac. Or a Linux box. Or an Amiga. Or a toaster. Your client-application doesn't look so cool now, does it? Oh, we could use Java, but that's OO, so it sucks. I've got this thing called a "web browser" which connects to servers using these things called "standard protocols" which, if you adhere to them, give you the ability to stop writing shitty applications with shitty interfaces in Visual BASIC that DON'T RUN ON ANYTHING BUT WINDOWS. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #203,683 by tablizer 4/17/05 11:26:44 PM Reply	Cross-platform is an implementation detail ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #203,688 by ben_tilly 4/17/05 11:49:49 PM Reply	A detail that requires... not implementing in VB. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #203,805 by mmoffitt 4/18/05 4:10:02 PM Reply	But not RealBasic. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #203,694 by pwhysall 4/18/05 1:38:58 AM Reply	The point is... ...we already have a method of doing sufficiently rich content onto various platforms, called a "web browser". And like opinions and arseholes, everyone's got one. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #203,699 by CRConrad 4/18/05 5:32:48 AM Reply	For varying- and IMO insufficient- def'ns of "sufficiently".
Post #203,706 by pwhysall 4/18/05 7:29:14 AM Reply	What is that you can't do in a web browser... ...that would make it worth developing a new set of client-side things you have to install (and support, and develop in the first place) across multiple platforms with disparate UI behaviour, thus more-or-less guaranteeing that on all but one of your platforms, your application looks and acts like a dog? Remember, Java exists. I don't see what Bryce's idea offers that Java doesn't. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #203,698 by CRConrad 4/18/05 5:32:26 AM Reply	Bullshit. PeeWee goes overboard: ...stop writing shitty applications with shitty interfaces in Visual BASIC that DON'T RUN ON ANYTHING BUT WINDOWS. Bull, and you know it. Whatever the (many) problems with Visual BASIC, "shitty interfaces" isn't one of them. On the contrary, it would be more correct to say that the user interface is the only thing VB gets right. (Oh, by all means, I'm sure there are lots of VB apps with shitty UIs -- but I'm equally sure those are the fault of the programmer, not the language.) [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #203,704 by pwhysall 4/18/05 7:25:11 AM Reply	You're so LITERAL, CRC. The entire point of that sentence is the bit in caps, so you focus on the other bit. Sheesh. Anyway. Many, many (most?) VB applications are flung together (because it's so easy in VB) and the UI sucks. Practically every in-house or vertical-market piece of software (coagulated using VB or V-whatever) I've ever used has had a UI that's moronic in at least one (and usually lots more) way. VB engenders very fast development. Very fast development engenders shitty interfaces, because good interface design is hard, and takes time. The whole schmeer doesn't run on my Mac. Java exists, and does. So what does Bryce want again? Visual BASIC for Java? Visual Java? Java BASIC? Visual J++? Java with the OO stuff taken out? Bryce is reinventing the wheel, and you're going off on a tangent. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #203,711 by CRConrad 4/18/05 8:40:59 AM Reply	Yeah, well, sorry; we can't all be illiterate, I guess... PeeWee gibbers on: The entire point of that sentence is the bit in caps, so you focus on the other bit. Sheesh. Bullshit again, I'm afraid: If the bit in caps had been the ENTIRE point, then you wouldn't have typed the rest in the first place, now would you? No, of course it had a point, such as it was: an attempt to further discredit VizzBass. Too bad (for you) it backfired, but that's what happens when you type away without first engaging brain. Many, many (most?) VB applications are flung together (because it's so easy in VB) and the UI sucks. Practically every in-house or vertical-market piece of software (coagulated using VB or V-whatever) I've ever used has had a UI that's moronic in at least one (and usually lots more) way. Oh, what a sadly one-sided experience you've had. What can I say... Sucks to be you, I suppose. VB engenders very fast development. Very fast development engenders shitty interfaces, because good interface design is hard, and takes time. Oh, bullshit, again. In the first place, many -- if not most -- apps done in VB are utterly trivial little things, and thus don't need all that sophisticated an interface. Secondly, even a non-UI-expert lowly VB developer gets a feel for these utterly -- and maybe even not-so-utterly -- trivial little apps, after the third or sixth one he codes. And finally, your whole complaint here can be rewritten as "this tool is shit, because it works too well!". The whole schmeer doesn't run on my Mac. It doesn't run on your Mac?!? Who gives a shit??? What the fuck are you; some kind of artist?!? Sorry, I mean -- some kind of artiste??? Buy a fucking normal computer, like a fucking normal person. Java exists, and does. Java exists, and does what, exactly? Oh, yeah, that's it: Suck. That's right, Java exists, and does indeed suck. So what does Bryce want again? Visual BASIC for Java? Visual Java? Java BASIC? Visual J++? Java with the OO stuff taken out? Something that runs, not oozes-like-it's-stuck-in-molasses? Something that doesn't have the same butt-ugly UI on every platform, conforming to the look-and-feel of none of them? Just the first couple guesses that come to mind, you see... Bryce is reinventing the wheel, and you're going off on a tangent. Bullshit. Bryce is actually (mostly) right (for once), and you're bashing away on him either out of sheer habit, or because you're genuinely misguided on this issue. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #203,714 by admin 4/18/05 9:03:55 AM Reply	Re: Yeah, well, sorry; we can't all be illiterate, I guess.. Something that runs, not oozes-like-it's-stuck-in-molasses? If you're talking about VB vs. Java, then that wasn't true even 6 or 7 years ago (I had exhaustive in-house metrics to prove it, too). Sheesh. There are a lot of bad things that Java is, but slow isn't one of them any longer. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #203,717 by CRConrad 4/18/05 9:23:35 AM Reply	Most sub-giga-RAM boxes I've used J-apps on, it's still SLOW
Post #203,723 by admin 4/18/05 10:13:00 AM Reply	Just like there are bad UIs in some VB programs... Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #203,757 by tuberculosis 4/18/05 12:51:46 PM Reply	Slow at what? "There are a lot of bad things that Java is, but slow isn't one of them any longer." Mmmmm. Depends. Slow to run, not so much. Slow to start - verrrry. Fire up any Swing app on Mac OS X and you'll find that it takes ages to get just the splash screen up. Criminal that is and it is why I pronounce desktop Java an unqualified failure. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #203,767 by admin 4/18/05 1:31:15 PM Reply	Re: Slow at what? The desktop Java apps I use are PVCS (teh sukc) and rarely IntelliJ. Splash screen times are no longer than things like Open Office or Firefox. I tend to leave GUI applications running for long periods of time, so startup times don't bother me in the least. Somewhat related: NeoOffice/J runs quite nicely on our Mini at home. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #203,778 by Another Scott 4/18/05 2:18:45 PM Reply	OpenOffice Win32 is a turtle. :-( Writer 1.9.91 takes 9 seconds to open on this Athlon64 with 1 GB of RAM. I have no idea how the Formula editor can be so slow either. On the other hand, DeScribe 5 (Win32) loads in < 1 s. Word 97 (which, granted, has a bunch of DLLs already loaded) loads in < 1 s. OO is a turtle. Saying desktop Java is comparable isn't saying much. :-( Cheers, Scott.
Post #203,797 by admin 4/18/05 3:45:06 PM Reply	I'm not talking about Windows. And OpenOffice for Windows isn't Java. :-) <6s for Linux OpenOffice on a 1.4 Ghz Xeon. 2s for Gnumeric, 4s for Abiword. 11s for Mozilla 1.7. 3s for FireFox 1.0, but it's already loaded. It's a good bit longer if it isn't running already. 3s for Evolution. All of these are C/C++. Compare to: 5s for pvcsvmux, a GUI Java program. 10s for IDEA, a Java IDE. Not too bad for PVCS, especially since it's a crappily-written Java program to boot. IDEs in general are very slow to start as well; Visual Stupido 6 takes for-freakin'-ever. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #203,813 by tuberculosis 4/18/05 4:20:03 PM Reply	Your IDEA launches considerably faster than mine I'm seeing times closer to 50s. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #203,814 by pwhysall 4/18/05 4:22:25 PM Reply	He is TEH ADMIN, remember. Java fears him. You are clearly instilling insufficient fear into your equipment. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #203,816 by Another Scott 4/18/05 4:25:38 PM Reply	:-)
Post #203,842 by admin 4/18/05 6:11:15 PM Reply	Must be your encouraging mental field... Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #203,808 by mmoffitt 4/18/05 4:14:48 PM Reply	Not slow? You'll probably write this off as "bad code" but have you ever seen how long it takes to load the DB2 UDB 8.2 UI? We've got an older DB2 server (4 GIG RAM, dual 1.1 Ghz processors) and I cry everytime I have to launch that app. (I shouldn't though, I should start it, go to the bathroom for a dump, stop and get a Diet Coke out of the machine, walk back to the server room and then, if I'm lucky and hold my tongue right, the splash screen will come up). bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #203,811 by admin 4/18/05 4:18:09 PM Reply	Yeah, that's bad code. BEA Weblogic's admin console was the same way. 140M from a standing start, and buggy as hell. In contrast, JDeveloper can start in 5-6 seconds and it has a more-or-less complete Oracle tool in it. So yeah, keep slagging Java's speed if it makes you feel better. But don't expect me to join the jihad. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #203,725 by pwhysall 4/18/05 10:26:22 AM Reply	So, to summarise: "VB is great and you should all use Windows". Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #203,729 by ChrisR 4/18/05 10:43:54 AM Reply	Which VB? Being as VB6 is incompatible with VB.Net, all them programmers out there are gonna have to be learnt a new language. VB6 was good at getting you 85% there on an app and then being the worst possible language in the world for that last 15%. VB.Net is just a variation on C#.Net which is itself a variation of Java. MS no longer plans to support VB6, which means all those VB programmers are moving to Java (well a java clone at any rate).
Post #203,730 by pwhysall 4/18/05 10:49:04 AM Reply	Ask CRC, he's the one with a stiffy for it :-) Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #203,787 by ben_tilly 4/18/05 2:45:24 PM Reply	Eat shit, a billion flies can't be wrong Many of us have good reasons for avoiding Windows. And if you want to start criticizing us for wanting to avoid Windows, we're going to think that you're an idiot. For good reason. Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #203,861 by CRConrad 4/19/05 3:33:11 AM Reply	Sheesh, man... it's obvious that some of us can, though. Be unable to read, that is. .-( What does it take; should I have called im a commie longhair hippie freak, too? [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #203,889 by ben_tilly 4/19/05 11:31:04 AM Reply	I can read just fine. Go back to your previous post. The whole schmeer doesn't run on my Mac. It doesn't run on your Mac?!? Who gives a shit??? What the fuck are you; some kind of artist?!? Sorry, I mean -- some kind of artiste??? Buy a fucking normal computer, like a fucking normal person. This may have been a pathetic attempt at humor. But it was too pathetic an attempt to interpret that way, hence I didn't. Therefore I applied logic. The only "fucking normal computer" on which VB works is Windows on x86. The argument that this is what a "fucking normal person" would do is an argument from popularity. Specifically an argument from popularity to use Windows. The normal response to someone saying, Do X because that is what everyone does is the line, Eat shit, a billion flies can't be wrong. (Or trivial variations thereof.) Hence my response. In short Peter's complaint that it doesn't work on his Mac is reasonable to me. His complaint that it also doesn't work on his Linux machine is reasonable to me. Your response that he should be normal and run a normal computer (by implication Windows) seems stupid to me. Which fact I proceeded to point out. If you still think that my reading comprehension lacks, please clarify. Regards, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #203,991 by CRConrad 4/20/05 8:56:55 AM Reply	Yep, I still think so. BenT asks [Moved around to suit my order - CRC]: If you still think that my reading comprehension lacks, please clarify. OK, I'll try. This may have been a pathetic attempt at humor. But it was too pathetic an attempt to interpret that way, hence I didn't. Therefore I applied logic. It was indeed "an attempt" at humour. And I'm sorry, But I'm not going to take your word for it that it was "pathetic"; your humour circuitry appears to be, if not damaged, then not of the best to begin with. Look, for instance, at your own closely following passage: The normal response to someone saying, Do X because that is what everyone does is the line, Eat shit, a billion flies can't be wrong. (Or trivial variations thereof.) Hence my response. SIGH... The bit about a billion flies not being wrong is what's called in the humour business a "set-up line"; the "Eat shit!" part is a so-called "punch-line". Anyone who calls putting the punch-line BEFORE the set-up a "trivial" variation is soooo not qualified to pass judgement on my humour. HTH. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #204,004 by ben_tilly 4/20/05 9:21:37 AM Reply	You've clearly not encountered that line before It is far more common to put the "Eat shit" bit first. Google for how many times you find various variations to verify that. It puts the emphasis in the place that makes the desired point, which is how stupid it is to do things because they are popular. Besides, anyone who would attempt to break a joke down into semantics like you did is obviously not processing things the same way that normal people are. Every rule gets broken from time to time. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #204,018 by CRConrad 4/20/05 9:48:41 AM Reply	Oh, POAD, you whiney ars...rectum. My first encounter with that line predates Google by just a tad; it was probably before you were able to read, too. A classmate had it printed on a T-shirt (complete with silly cartoon of a furry fly and a pile of dung) in... Must have been about 1978. Be that how it may, I still don't see how moving the punch-line before the set-up somehow alters "the emphasis"; AFAICS, the point remains the same either way. And, your gibbering about "break[ing] a joke down into semantics" (like, babbling about how ruining the joke "makes the desired point"?) notwithstanding, I'm still fairly sure it's a well-know common-sense basic rule of joke-telling: You save the punch line for last. Are you seriously trying to dispute this? Or are you trying to claim that it isn't supposed to be a joke at all? Oh, whogivesafuck: Keep whining, you annoying miserable little sod; I'm not going to listen any more. [Marvellous phrase, there, (c) PW -- Thanks!] [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #204,053 by ben_tilly 4/20/05 11:24:49 AM Reply	Definitely not before I could read... 1978 was the year I turned 9, I'd already discovered science fiction by then. As for the rest, I think we are agreed that there is no point in continued discussion between us. Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

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