Re: how do you discuss this?

Post #20,149 by a6l6e6x 12/3/01 8:55:13 PM Reply	Re: how do you discuss this? Hamas has always been a problem. Hamas was once a fringe group and could have been marginalized into virtual extinction. Now, courtesy of Netanyahu and Sharon, they are more in control of Palestinians than Arafat. Fundamentally, Hamas is not different from the Israelis, as exemplified by the "settlers", in their aims to exterminate the other guy and take his land. Only the tactics are different. One does seem to lack a regular army, tanks, helicopter gunships, F16s, etc. Things are just getting worse. Look for the "final solution" for the Palestinian problem. Brought to you by the people that should know better. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #20,178 by bluke 12/4/01 4:03:55 AM Reply	You spout such propaganda No one is Israel has ever said that there goal is to exterminate the Palestinians (something that cannot be said for the Arabs up until this day. Has Israel exterminated the Arabs citizens who live in it's midst? In fact, the Arab citizens of Israel have more rights in Israel then in ANY other Arab country. There are 10 Arab MP's in the Knesset. There were almost a million Jews living in Arab countries in 1948, how many are left? A few thousand and they are opressed and would love to leave. Those on the right in Israel believe the following (obviously not everyone will agree with every point): 1. Jordan is the Palestinian state, as in 1922 the British took 80% of the Palestine mandate and made it into an Arab state 2. The Arabs have still not accepted the reality of Israel. Even a "moderate" like Faisal Husseini admitted that a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza is just a first step toward the liberation of all of Palestine 3. Look at a map of the Middle East. Israel is but a speck among the 22 Arab countries 4. Jerusalem is the holiest city in Judaism, Jews have prayed to return to Jerusalem for 2000 years, Jerusalem has never been an important Moslem city except when anotheer religion has it (see here for details [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=18739\|Moslem connection to Jerusalem?] ) 5. UN Resolution 242 (as agreed to by all those involved in the drafting of the resolution) NEVER said that Israel needs to withdraw to the 1967 lines, rather withdrawl from territories 6a. The "right of return" that the Palestinians are calling for is a code word for Israel's destruction 6b. Every other refugee problem in the 20th century has been settled by resettlement, the best example being India and Pakistan. 7. East Jerusalem, Hebron ,Shechem (Nablus) are not traditionally Arab cities. These are places where Jews have a long and deep historical connection Based on the above the overwhelming majority of Israelis including those on the right and the settlers are willing to compromise and establish a de-mmilitarized Palestinian state on much of the territory as Sharon himself has stated. However , this will not include Jerusalem nor the right of return for the reasons stated above. One last question, why should it be "Land for Peace", why not "Peace for Peace"? Israel is being forced to give up tangible assets for promises. Since 1993, Israel withdraw from Gaza and part of the West Bank, as of the summer 2000 99% of Palestinians were under PA rule. What did Israel get in return?
Post #20,181 by pwhysall 12/4/01 7:23:36 AM Reply	Re: You spout such propaganda 3. Look at a map of the Middle East. Israel is but a speck among the 22 Arab countries Er, dude, isn't that some kind of clue? Peter Shill For Hire [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal]
Post #20,182 by boxley 12/4/01 7:51:06 AM Reply	point missed? tshirt front "born to die before I get old" thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
Post #20,185 by bluke 12/4/01 8:21:11 AM Reply	What kind of clue?
Post #20,184 by a6l6e6x 12/4/01 8:05:59 AM Reply	"No one is Israel has ever said ..." To quote Peres, judge by "deeds alone". Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #20,186 by bluke 12/4/01 8:30:27 AM Reply	Deeds Israel pulled out of Gaza parts of the West Bank, Hebron, etc. in short Israel fulfilled its obligations under the Oslo agreements. Note, the Oslo agreements did NOT prohibit the establishment of new settlements. As I pointed out to you, in the summer of 2000, 99% of Palestinians were living in either Area A (full PA control) or Area B (PA civil control). Those are deeds. Israeli Arabs have full rights under Israel, there are 10 Arab Knesset members. Israeli Arabs are probably freer then any other Arabs in the Middle East. In the summer of 2000 at Camp David, Barak offered Arafat, 90%+ of the territory, a compromise on Jerusalem, etc. those are deeds. Arafat on the other hand was also supposed to carry out deeds, such as, arresting terrorists, stopping incitement, confiscating illegal weapons. He has done none of these. In fact, he has done the reverse. In Arabic, he has continued the incitement, he praised the Sbarro bomber as a martyr. His own Fatah group has taken responsibility for many terrorist attacks.
Post #20,195 by a6l6e6x 12/4/01 11:38:49 AM Reply	Re: Deeds I am not defending or absolving all Arafat deeds. I'm not keeping track of them. Israeli pull outs out of Gaza and parts West Bank mean nothing when Israel invades those territories at will. The Oslo agreements not prohibiting settlements is not a permission to expand them. The Oslo agreements probably did not prohibit the rape of Palestinian women either. The reaction from Palestinians to either act is about the same, and you know it. And, furthermore, don't care. One of the Arab Knesset members was recently arrested for what he said, was he not? That's freedom of speech? One could also ask if Israel is civilized country or the land of the Jewish Taliban. My son, an engineer, was in Israel on a business trip a few years ago and stayed in a Haifa hotel. He and his co-workers were at an Arab owned restaurant finishing their beers after a meal. Just before 6 PM, the owner put out the Closed sign and locked the door. He then he apologized that he would have to turn off the lights but that his guest need not hurry the beers. Within minutes, a guy with a black hat (no, not a Taliban turban, but a hat Hasidic Jews wear) was pounding his fist on the door. In a heated tone he insisted the quest leave immediately or he would call the police. The owner apologetically then asked his guests to leave. Same trip, but a breakfast in the hotel. The visiting wife of one of the co-workers (it was a several weeklong business trip) brought a sausage to the breakfast table. No meat was being served, so she thought it would a nice idea and started to slice it up for the group. A horrified Palestinian waiter came running to the table. They were to swallow what was in their mouths and quickly hide the rest. He said, if the sausage was seen by the wrong person, every Palestinian in the restaurant would be fired and the restaurant closed up. Even the hotel would be closed for some time. Apparently, Kosher dietary practices are law and to be followed by all. This is called freedom of religion and Israel a democracy. Looks like the Taliban to me. Not having been circumcised, I would never visit Israel. :) Yeh, I know, if you don't like it, don't come. And if you've come, leave. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #20,196 by bluke 12/4/01 12:19:48 PM Reply	Warped view of Israel You pick a misunderstood story and make ridiculous generalizations. Let us look at the cases that you mention. The hotel in Haifa was probably kosher. One of the things that means is that you can't eat meat and milk at the same meal. Therefore, the sausage at breakfast violated those religious. If those laws are violated the hotel could lose it's kosher certification. The hotel does not want that to happen and therefore what happened happened. However, the hotel, or any other restaurant has no obligation to be kosher, the hotel VOLUNTARILY agreed to be kosher and therefore needs to follow the rules. I bet the same thing would happen in the US in a vegetarian restaurant or kosher restaurant. It is certainly not the law of land to be kosher. To my dismay, many of the restaurants in the area where I work are NOT kosher. The Knesset member is under investigation for treason. He went to Syria (a nation technically at war with Israel) and made statements supporting armed conflict against Israel. Last time I looked at my US passport, it said that it was not valid for travel to N. Korea and I believe a person could be prosecuted for that. Similarly, if a US Congressman got up traveled to Afghanistan, met with Bin Laden, and made public statements stating that Bin Laden should continue to carry out his attacks on the US what do you think would happen to him? The fact is that Israel has given the Arab Knesset members tremendous latitude in what they say. It is unbelievable what a warped attitude of Israel that you have.
Post #20,251 by a6l6e6x 12/4/01 5:35:17 PM Reply	Re: Warped view of Israel We'll see how the American Taliban gets treated. He actually had been armed and presumably fired on the Northern Alliance "troops" and possibly Americans as well. Jane Fonda was never jailed for her Hanoi speech. She did antagonize some people, and some do not forgive her to this day. And, you did not say anything about the Hasidic "Sabbath enforcer" and customers having to leave a closed, darkened, restaurant at 6 PM on a Friday or else. And speaking of warped views, I was amused how both you and Boxer could not see the point of Peter's remark. The point is that perhaps Israel does not belong where it is and Israelis should consider your point 6b: Every other refugee problem in the 20th century has been settled by resettlement, the best example being India and Pakistan. Of course you insist for others what you would decline for yourself, i.e. move somewhere else (or die with our help). And incidentally, India has over 100 million Muslim citizens and is a secular democracy. Not that they don't have some medieval traditions. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #20,253 by Ashton 12/4/01 5:46:55 PM Reply	Good Idea! I say: give em Utah.__Save Us / Save Them. QED
Post #20,257 by a6l6e6x 12/4/01 5:58:19 PM Reply	It works for me, Ash. But they'll want California. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #20,291 by bluke 12/5/01 3:29:17 AM Reply	More answers for you I can't speak to the specifics of the restaurant case. I can say in general, that some restaurants are open on the Sabbath, again a restaurant that wants to be certified kosher can not be. These points just show how anti-Israel you are. You take one story and then claim Israel is like the Taliban without having teh slightest idea of what you are talking about. Your point about India and refugees is wrong as usual: 1. Many Jews did move, namely from the Arab countries where they had lived for hundreds of years to Israel 2. Where would you like the Jews to go to? The "Palestinians" can go to Jordan, Egypt, etc. they speak the same language, have the same culture, etc. Yasir Arafat was born in Cairo, Faisal Husseini in Iraq 3. At least 20 million refugees were resettled in India or Pakistan. Israel as well has a significant Arab minority 4. The Arabs are the ones who left in 1948 because their leaders promised them that they would throw the Jews into the sea and then they would return One last point about religion and the state, last I checked, Christmas was a federal, state and local holiday in the US, no Jewish, Muslim, etc. holiday has the same status. What does that say about the US?
Post #20,341 by a6l6e6x 12/5/01 12:55:31 PM Reply	Re: More answers for you The point of bringing up the story is that to a visitor Israel appears to be run by something equivalent of the Taliban. Perhaps we can call it oppression by a religious majority. And, that's something I fear in the US as well. My point about India you have chosen to misunderstand. In terms of population, India is the second largest Muslim country. A secular democracy with Muslims is possible. I'll grant you that the many who passionately did not want to be in a minority resettled during the partition of India and Pakistan. Kashmir is the legacy of partition approaches. You would choose not to learn from that conflict. Personally, I don't care where someone was born. Save that for someone else. I was born in Eastern Europe, a WW-II refuge, and am a naturalized American. One swears to defend the US and the Constitution of the US to become a citizen something natural citizens do only if they join the military. If called, I would serve with no hesitation. This is my country and I have no divided loyalties. While admitting faults and misdeeds of the US, I am proud to be an American. As far as the Arab minority in Israel goes, I understand them to be treated, at best, as second class citizens. I bet, in your whole life, unsolicited (if then), you ever once smiled and said "Good Morning!" to an Arab Israeli. Tell me I'm wrong, please. Agreed that there are Arabs that want to reclaim Israel. That's a dead cause and it won't happen. You do have to resolve the "right of return" issue with these. Maybe buy them off somehow. Now, tell me there no Israelis that want to reclaim all the Biblical Israeli lands. In my view, both these groups come from the same mold. Christmas Day in the US is more of a commercial holiday. It is not overly coercive to have a day off. But, it would please me if it were replaced by a floating personal choice day off. Taking a day off for a Jewish holiday has not been a problem to anyone I've known at school or work. In my experience, teachers in fact often did not start new material on such days. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #20,296 by bluke 12/5/01 5:48:36 AM Reply	Re: Warped view of Israel Please read this article [link\|http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-schwartz120401.shtml\|An Old Story Anti-Semitism, past and present]
Post #20,329 by a6l6e6x 12/5/01 11:18:01 AM Reply	Re: Warped view of Israel Martin Luther King's quote notwithstanding, I'm not impressed. It has some valid points but overall it is a biased one sided rationalization of Israeli behavior. To say others are worse or have been worse in their treatment of human beings does nor excuse anything. To be critical of Israel is not no be Anti-Semitic. The man practices what he accuses others of doing. Words have become so much bullshit. Actions count. Yesterday, on CNN not exactly a pro-Palestinian network, we watched the Israeli F-16 doing their business on the Palestinians. Bombs falling, people panicking in the streets, children in school yards getting killed and maimed. The Palestinian Air Force was nowhere in sight - the cowardly bastards. Oh wait, Arafat's two helicopters, which appeared to be lacking machine guns and rocket launchers anyway, were destroyed the prior day. I'm sure you thought it was a wonderful show. Yeh, kill those motherfuckers. Yes, deeds alone count. All nations should aspire to such exemplary behavior. But of course not your enemies, that would be Anti-Semitic. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #20,354 by bluke 12/5/01 2:00:43 PM Reply	Empty words by you as usual Why don't you go through his points one by one and refute them if you can?
Post #20,368 by a6l6e6x 12/5/01 4:02:35 PM Reply	Re: Empty words by you as usual Let's just say that it is well-plowed ground and there is not much point to go over it again. Perhaps more eloquently, he has said the same things you have been saying over and over the past many months. It's the same "hymn book", if you'll pardon the cross-cultural reference. Perhaps the MLKing quote was new. You have obviously collected a lot of material that you cut and paste. I bet you have database schema for it. :) All the wrongs the US or anyone else has done to any one. These are the excuses to do the same or worse by Israel or at least reason for the rest of us to shut up and not criticize. All the wrongs done to Jews over the centuries as if that gives you license for retribution to the descendents of the perpetrators. All the anti Muslim evidence and how they are evil because your foes are mostly Muslim. All the historical references how there are no real Arab countries just creations of the British Empire or the West. A selected set of UN resolutions that support your goals. You even had arguments in the Religion forum about how Christianity was a sham. My God, (that's a joke son) you must be anti Arab, anti Muslim, and anti Christian bigot! :) Anyway, I find your position for the most part to be part of the problem and not part of any solution. Having been a "tenant" in a Nazi concentration camp and up to age 5 being responsible for a 3 year old brother and an infant brother (who died) while my parents were working the fields on a German slave farm gives me a certain perspective on oppression. Cold and hunger are no strangers, either. From my parents experience, I learned about oppression in pre-WW-II Soviet Union. My point is, I know oppression when I see it and perhaps have an obligation to speak. You are on the wrong side of it. You appear to have no conception of what being oppressed is like. Perhaps you could say what it is like to be part of the master race. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #20,447 by bluke 12/6/01 2:59:56 AM Reply	And you have refuted none of it
Post #20,336 by boxley 12/5/01 11:49:33 AM Reply	I wasnt sure but your point is Jews do not belong there without addressing where they might go where Jews and only Jews determine the fate of Jews. I also find you story of meat in a kosher restaurant and the black hatted hasid pounding on the door threatening to call the police very amusing. Same thing happened to me when I lit up a cigarette in a bar in california :) thanx, bill tshirt front "born to die before I get old" thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
Post #20,343 by a6l6e6x 12/5/01 12:59:32 PM Reply	Yes, a cigarette smoke Nazi! :) Other than having your livelihood threatened. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #20,408 by boxley 12/5/01 8:22:58 PM Reply	so losing a liquor licence in CA does not threaten your livelyhood? Apparently you cannot see the obvious similarities. OT making a run to TN on the 20th, you on the way to stop for a coffee? or 2 close to Orlando. Be riding the 75. thanx, bill tshirt front "born to die before I get old" thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
Post #20,434 by a6l6e6x 12/5/01 11:15:19 PM Reply	Re: so losing a liquor licence in CA You're right, I did not know liquor license was involved. I-75 does not go thru North Carolina, it's thru Georgia. East to West NC is about 500 miles wide and Charlotte is about the middle of that but near SC border. It's at the intersection of I-85 and I-77. I-40 runs East-West about 50 miles North of Charlotte. If you were going on I-95 North from West Palm to I-26 North West (in SC) to I-77 North (from Columbia, SC) that would take you to Charlotte. After Charlotte, you would take I-77 North to I-40 (in Statesville, NC) and then West towards TN. Unless you do something like that, I'm not on the way. However, if you have the time and inclination to stop by anyway going North or on the way back home, I'd be happy to meet you. Heck, I'll buy lunch. Look at a map and let me know. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #20,453 by boxley 12/6/01 8:22:10 AM Reply	going I75 to TN then 40 to Asheville, to the coast 95 south want to go to dollywood for the xmas show, tootle over to asheville for xmas looking for a snowbank to roll in then slow drive home. If your in the area email me at WilliamOxley at netscape dot net with your whereabouts, will try to swing by. thanx, bill tshirt front "born to die before I get old" thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
Post #20,468 by a6l6e6x 12/6/01 10:12:13 AM Reply	Super! I have sent you email. Looks like it must be a family fun trip and not job interview. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #20,438 by wharris2 12/5/01 11:55:17 PM Reply	I-75 goes from detroit to florida, where are you joining up on it? Believe it or not, there's a bloody book devoted to I-75. "Along Interstate 75: 10th annual edition", by Dave Hunter. Mile Oak Pub; ISBN: 1896819141 I pass I-75 every day on my way to work. "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it." -- Donald Knuth
Post #20,454 by boxley 12/6/01 8:26:53 AM Reply	sofla to atlanta then over to Pigion Forge tshirt front "born to die before I get old" thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
Post #20,528 by Ashton 12/6/01 5:40:48 PM Reply	LRPD: Do you, in fact, have any cheese here at all?_____:-\ufffd
Post #20,349 by inthane-chan 12/5/01 1:37:54 PM Reply	On that "american"... IIRC, isn't serving in a foreign military grounds for revocation of U.S. citizenship? "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #20,355 by wharris2 12/5/01 2:13:27 PM Reply	Heard a discussion of it No, it isn't. There probably is some law he can be prosecuted for, in assisting terrorists or something like that, but unless you've actually become a citizen of a foreign government or formally revoke your citizenship yourself, it can't be taken from you. (Naturalized citizens can be stripped of citizenship if it's shown they lied on their citizenship application, but that's not the case here.) Fighting in a foreign army against our troops is treason, but I doubt we'll be able to prove it to the standards set by the U.S. constitution. You have to have two eyewitnesses to the treasonous act. If he has a good enough lawyer, and given the appearance of his father on television he's almost guaranteed a very slick lawyer, he claims he was over there just learning about the Taliban and happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when captured and imprisoned. "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it." -- Donald Knuth
Post #20,179 by bluke 12/4/01 4:10:21 AM Reply	Hamas is not a fringe group just like Al Queida is not The Arab world has moved away from secular ideaologies and has moved towards Islamic fundamentalism recently. Look at Egypt, Saudia Arabia, Pakistan, Lebanon (Hizbullah), etc. Hamas is part of the same phenomenon. Secondly, as everyone agrees, Arafat's PA is completely corrupt and violates human rights, this also pushes many people to Hamas.

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